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masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 9:58:27 PM

ravn

Posts: 328
Joined: 3/16/2006
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i was on the receiving end of a comment tonight that basically said that i was not a worthwhile slave if i enjoyed a session for the pain.

i am a masochist- through and through, i'm not gonna lie, because there is no point in it. But truly- what i'm asking is this:

Is there a difference in submission where you accept the pain in a session because it's about the submission, and submission where you accept the pain in a session because you enjoy the pain?

Does being a masochist invalidate my worth as a slave?

::EDIT:: This comment was NOT received from my Master- it was from another submissive

< Message edited by ravn -- 7/12/2006 10:21:18 PM >

_____________________________

Masochism is a valuable job skill.
Chuck Palahniuk
Love is a sweet tyranny, because the lover endureth his torments willingly.
~Proverb ( bring on the tyranny!)

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RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:03:09 PM

Taylore

Posts: 121
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

i was on the receiving end of a comment tonight that basically said that i was not a worthwhile slave if i enjoyed a session for the pain.

i am a masochist- through and through, i'm not gonna lie, because there is no point in it. But truly- what i'm asking is this:

Is there a difference in submission where you accept the pain in a session because it's about the submission, and submission where you accept the pain in a session because you enjoy the pain?

Does being a masochist invalidate my worth as a slave?

This slave is a masochist, and very proud to say that she is. Master quite enjoys this facet of me. To tell the truth, because I enjoy pain so much, Master is able to administer much more, which in turn pleases him. He is quite the sadist when it comes to administering pain

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Taylore

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 2

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:04:34 PM

ravn

Posts: 328
Joined: 3/16/2006
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Taylore, my Master is a sadist as well, but basically what i think i'm asking is- does being a masochist turn the relationship into something other than Master/slave? does it invalidate the relationship in any way?

_____________________________

Masochism is a valuable job skill.
Chuck Palahniuk
Love is a sweet tyranny, because the lover endureth his torments willingly.
~Proverb ( bring on the tyranny!)

(in reply to Taylore)

Post #: 3

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:07:20 PM

Taylore

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Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

Taylore, my Master is a sadist as well, but basically what i think i'm asking is- does being a masochist turn the relationship into something other than Master/slave? does it invalidate the relationship in any way?

I don't see how it can, unless the Master/Mistress relies soley on physical punishment for 'transgressions'. Master has never physically punished me for anything, yet it does not invalidate our relationship. Not sure, but is that what you were asking?

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Taylore

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 4

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:14:23 PM

babysburnin

Posts: 421
Joined: 2/16/2006
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Sooo - He wants to hurt you...but it's not "good" for him if you like it? I'm clearly not an expert on this...but... so, what does HE want? To trap a poor soul to abuse?

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-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 5

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:20:05 PM

ravn

Posts: 328
Joined: 3/16/2006
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the comment was received from another submissive (clearly not a masochist), not my Master

_____________________________

Masochism is a valuable job skill.
Chuck Palahniuk
Love is a sweet tyranny, because the lover endureth his torments willingly.
~Proverb ( bring on the tyranny!)

(in reply to babysburnin)

Post #: 6

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:24:04 PM

SadisticHell

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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I think it is very important to recognize the different elements in the question. First masochism, as part of SM, can be a seperate entity than submission, as part of D/s. They are not always combined nor should they be. One can be a sadistic submissive or a masochistic Dominant..there are more Dom Sadists and sub masochists but I see that as part and parcel of a similar interest but they dont have to be such. If you are owned, which is a control element, than that has nothing to do with enjoying pain. Vice versa if you enjoy pain you dont have to be owned or even submit to anyone. I know several Dom-Dom situations where one uses the other to get some aspects of pain or bondage without releasing their primary control elements.

So in a long about answer: masochism and slavery can be mutually exclusive AND if you are a masochist and a slave than those are 2 different elements being used in one relationship

Mitch
Aka SadisticHell

(in reply to babysburnin)

Post #: 7

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:24:59 PM

HarryVanWinkle

Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

Taylore, my Master is a sadist as well, but basically what i think i'm asking is- does being a masochist turn the relationship into something other than Master/slave? does it invalidate the relationship in any way?

Ravn,

The only two people on the face of this planet who can validate or invalidate the relationship between your Master and you are your Master and you.

Nobody else's opinion matters. If it works for you and him, don't worry about what anybody else thinks.

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 8

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 10:26:38 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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fast reply,

Some masochists are what my Dom terms pain sluts, and in his definition (not all share the same ways of looking at BDSM terms) this means that they put pain above the Ds dynamic. He had a pain slut, his first sub. She topped from the bottom and would try to anger him to get her pain fix. He released her . Then comes me, someone that enjoys some pain, but I am not a pain slut. I do not put subspace above his pleasure or his desires. I want to please him more than I want to be giddy and happy from a fresh beating.

I think some doms that have had masochists that put their pain above the dominant's pleasure may come to think all subs that enjoy pain must be topping from the bottom. This is like saying that because you knew of two teenage prostitutes all teenagers are prostitutes. It is like me saying that because I have had two major relationships with muscians that lied, all musicians are liars... it is a faulty generalization. Unless you have talked with at least 100s of submissive masochists and their doms it would be pretty hard to even begin to stereotype us like this. It is called a logical fallacy.

I wouldn't take such faulty reasoning personally.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/12/2006 10:27:38 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to babysburnin)

Post #: 9

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/12/2006 11:42:44 PM

OTKkindaGirl

Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
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this isn't just a NO, it's a HELL NO!! you aren't any less worthy as a submissive let alone slave if you are a masochist. nowhere in the dictionary does the word submiss, submission, submissive, or submit have any reference to masochism, pain, or abuse.

masochism on the other as defined in the dictionary 1 the getting of sexual pleasure from being dominated, mistreated, or hurt physically or otherwise by one's partner. 2 the getting of pleasure from suffering physical or psychological pain inflicted by others or by oneself.

There is a reason there are 3 parts to the BDSM symbol. Bondage/discipline, Domination/submission, SadoMasochism. Each is a realm within itself, some of us can do all realms and some of us can't. Seems to me that "someone" that is having a hard time "trying to", is judging those that can.

respectively i feel that the person saying that you can't be both and be "worthwhile" is in a relationship with a sadist and feels that her submission is greater than yours because she isn't a masochist. it's like saying "how dare you enjoy it when i can't!" we both know it doesn't mean you aren't submitting. something that she fails to realize is that there are different types of punishments to which we much submit to, that we may not like and has nothing to do with pain.

please don't let one submissive make you feel like you need validation in who and what you are. be secure and confident because you are fortunate to be with a sadistic dominant.

respectively from one slave masochist to another

unless you are a self inflicting masochist it's nearly impossible to be a masochist without a form of submission, whereas it's easier to call oneself a submissive and not be masochistic at all, but then i pose this question- if you're submitting to a sadist, does this not in fact make one a "bit" of a masochist any a tiny baby step kind of way?

< Message edited by OTKkindaGirl -- 7/13/2006 12:18:21 AM >

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 10

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 2:49:52 AM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
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oh phooey on the one who told you this. Would you be any less a slave, if your Master bought you ice cream, AND it just so happened that you Loved ice cream?

Sounds like a win/win to me!

_____________________________

~ Mavis

none of this applies to me, i'm only playing with lables this week.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 11

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 3:06:31 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

Posts: 1672
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl
unless you are a self inflicting masochist it's nearly impossible to be a masochist without a form of submission, whereas it's easier to call oneself a submissive and not be masochistic at all...

Actually, I am going to have to disagree with you on this one specific point, otk.

I am a masocist. Hell, I'm a bit of an extreme masocist, and have been refered to more than once as an unrepentant pain slut. (And an unrepentant slut as well, but I take both as a compliment lol. ) I do NOT, however, submit to Anyone. Power exchange dynamics simply ain't my "thang" these days. I attempted to do so, with varying degrees of sucess, for 20 years. I finally got to the point where - quite frankly - even the thought of power dynamics in my OWN relationships makes me more than just a tad nauseated and instantly raises my hackles.

I don't self inflict to get my pain fix. I don't know that many masocists who do, for that matter, unless there are other underlying psych issues to be dealt with which lead to things like cutting - which is a whole other sort of thing in and of itself, not even actually a masocistic responce. I do, however, frequently go to various events at the local dungeon play space and scene with various sadistic play partners. Most of those sadists consider themselves dominants, and yes they have submissive or slave regular partners for their power dynamic needs by and large, although there are some "unattached" sadists there that I play with as well simply because they're very good at what they do in scene. I've found that simply showing up and displaying a willingness to be on the recieving end of the flogger, crop, or paddle works quite nicely for presenting me with more opportunities to get my Fix than I can reasonably accept on any given night.

As for the OP :

Ravn, the only two people on the planet who can validate or invalidate your relationship are you and your partner. If anything, the gal who got pissy with you about not being "as good" or "as valid" as herself has ego issues, and is attempting to prop herself up at your expense. Tell her to shove it right up her rump, sans lube, and remain content in the knowledge that your partner enjoys you as you are - not as that outsider is. Once she gets over her own insecurities about life, she'll quit feeling a need to validate herself in that particular manner.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 12

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 4:51:34 AM

twicehappy

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Not at all. You can be either a masochist or a slave/sub or you can be both, neither precludes or invalidates the other. I suggest whoever made this comment does not know of what they speak.

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Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 13

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 4:59:48 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

I too, have gotten this kind of commentary. It also came from someone who was not a masochist. The suggestion was that they were the better sub/slave because they endured something that they didn't like or get something out of solely for the sake of their Master....and I wasn't nearly as "slavely" as they because I was getting one of my needs met and actually enjoyed what I was having done to me. This is just utter bullshit. The only reason someone makes a comment like that is so that they can put themself up on some pedestal. There are people in the world who can only feel better about themselves if they make everyone else feel like less.

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 14

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:02:55 AM

irishbynature

Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

this isn't just a NO, it's a HELL NO!! you aren't any less worthy as a submissive let alone slave if you are a masochist. nowhere in the dictionary does the word submiss, submission, submissive, or submit have any reference to masochism, pain, or abuse.

masochism on the other as defined in the dictionary 1 the getting of sexual pleasure from being dominated, mistreated, or hurt physically or otherwise by one's partner. 2 the getting of pleasure from suffering physical or psychological pain inflicted by others or by oneself.

There is a reason there are 3 parts to the BDSM symbol. Bondage/discipline, Domination/submission, SadoMasochism. Each is a realm within itself, some of us can do all realms and some of us can't. Seems to me that "someone" that is having a hard time "trying to", is judging those that can.

respectively i feel that the person saying that you can't be both and be "worthwhile" is in a relationship with a sadist and feels that her submission is greater than yours because she isn't a masochist. it's like saying "how dare you enjoy it when i can't!" we both know it doesn't mean you aren't submitting. something that she fails to realize is that there are different types of punishments to which we much submit to, that we may not like and has nothing to do with pain.

Exactly. There are so many dynamics that occur in individual relationships. I'm not a sadist or a masochist. However, I listen and remind myself that "this is their dynamic, not mine" and it does make me more or less of a submissive, or their dom better or worse. The rules are established via the couple.

Thanks for your post OTK

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)

Post #: 15

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:05:12 AM

litleone8620

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Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline

I agree with anyone who said the only people who can validate, or invalidate your submission and masochism is you, and your dominant.

I am a masochist. That doesn't make me any less submissive. If anything, i think it makes me submit more. To the dominance Master has over me, to trust him to do things to me that i wouldn't let just anyone do to me.

Plus, it lets Master make up creative ways to punish me.

Ignore what that person said to you. If you and your dominant like it, then it works for you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 16

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:15:55 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
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These bdsm sessions don't define the D/s or M/s dynamic. Bdsm is not a crucial component to the M/s or D/s dynamic.

I believe that people have placed such a large focus on play, sessions, punishments... interactions... that they have either totally lost sight on the mental/emotional dynamic of the relationship or they never had a desire in exploring this element in the first place.

I have seen a trend lately with questions that tend to blend sadism & masochism with dominance & submission. That people tend to think that you have to be either/or... a dom must be sadist & a sub is always masochistic.

One does not define the other. An individual can be both sadistic & masochistic, lean toward one or the other or be neither.

It seems that rather than understand that these are completely different traits & embrace or explore SM someone somewhere down the line attempted to simplify this & made a generalized statement that was rather black & white. (& somehow it took hold)

Often simplifying matters only makes it confusing. This way of life is not a simple matter... if it were everyone would be doing it & a small segment of society would be exploring something entirely different.

(hmmmm.. imagine that, a world of D/s & a few brave souls trying to be vanilla)

Comment to the OP... the next time someone tells you that you are doing it all wrong or that you are somehow invalid within this, stop & consider the source... who or what made them such an authority? Only you & those you interact with are capable of knowing what beats in your chest & what runs through your mind... these people are truly the only ones worthy of judging or assessing your position within this.

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MstrssPassion

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 17

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:29:00 AM

TNstepsout

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I think whoever said this to you is an idiot. If you are to go down that line of reasoning can she say her Master is really dominant since he only dominates someone who wants to submit?Wouldn't a REAL dominant be able to control anyone?

Such silliness. I think the only response to statements like this is to look puzzled and say "you're kidding right?"

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 18

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:29:44 AM

Lashra

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Joined: 2/9/2006
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I would say that person doesn't really know what they are talking about and only YOU and your partner(s) can define the word submission and what it means to you.

My slutboy is submissive and yes he is a masochist. Im a sadist so its a very nice fit. His enjoying pain doesn't make him any less submissive, he loves to serve me in anyway that he can. I like inflicting pain on him and he likes to recieve it.

So yes you can be a submissive and a masochist at the sametime, just as I can be a Dominant and a sadist.

Its all good as long as your enjoying it.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 19

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:41:11 AM

Caretakr

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
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I really hate tactics that ty to link prefferences someone may like, to ones they feel you value.

I don't really like sadism, I think messing with body checmicals is unhealthy. But that makes me No less Dominant.

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 20

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