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RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:54:53 AM

iliv2servher

Posts: 228
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

Is there a difference in submission where you accept the pain in a session because it's about the submission, and submission where you accept the pain in a session because you enjoy the pain?

Does being a masochist invalidate my worth as a slave?

One isn't necessarily mutually-exclusive to the other. Some masochists are not slaves, and some slaves are not masochists. You can be a slave if you tolerate pain at times and enjoy it at other times. As as for your self-worth, it is not defined by whether or not you enjoy pain, but who you really are as a person.

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 21

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 6:21:07 AM

MrrPete

Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

Just because someone expresses an opinion it doesn't make them an expert. Many opinions are accepted
as fact when there isn't an ioto of truth in the that opinion.

For example there's a Flat Earth Society

IMO masochists have to give consent to someone else in order to receive pain so they are at least a bottom.

_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 22

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 7:41:45 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

My personal opinion:
What we do doesn't define who we are. Being a submissive/slave and being a masochist are two different things. Often, they do go together, as does being a sadist and a top (or Dom or Master). But, I know plenty of subs who are not into pain and I know plenty of tops who are masochists.

In the end, don't rely on someone else's opinion to decide who you are (even mine, as wonderful and enlightening as it is!

). Decide what is and isn't right for yourself.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 23

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:10:49 AM

Taylore

Posts: 121
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

this means that they put pain above the Ds dynamic

This slave would have to disagree. The dynamic that I have with Master is more important than anything. Pain is secondary. I need the power exchange with Master; I don't need the pain that he can administer.

_____________________________

Taylore

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 24

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:26:34 AM

TxBadMan

Posts: 198
Joined: 4/7/2006
From: Moody, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

i was on the receiving end of a comment tonight that basically said that i was not a worthwhile slave if i enjoyed a session for the pain.

i am a masochist- through and through, i'm not gonna lie, because there is no point in it. But truly- what i'm asking is this:

Is there a difference in submission where you accept the pain in a session because it's about the submission, and submission where you accept the pain in a session because you enjoy the pain?

Does being a masochist invalidate my worth as a slave?

::EDIT:: This comment was NOT received from my Master- it was from another submissive

My girl is a masochist. Yet, despite her being so, this does not make her submission to me any less, or any more than if she had not been a masochist. Physical play does not define our relationship. The mental aspects are the core, everything else is just icing on the cake. So, in answer to your question; no, being a masochist in no way invalidates your slavery.

_____________________________

Chris

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 25

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:42:21 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

fast reply,

Being a masochist does not make you a bottom. Dominants and tops are masochists. Receiving pain is no different than receiving oral sex, it is an action. It is not bottoming to receive oral sex, and it is not bottoming to receive a whiping.. especially when you have told the one whipping you what flogger to use, how hard to do it, where to do it, and how long to do it...

Just my opinion, I could be wrong

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TxBadMan)

Post #: 26

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 10:32:01 AM

OTKkindaGirl

Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl
unless you are a self inflicting masochist it's nearly impossible to be a masochist without a form of submission, whereas it's easier to call oneself a submissive and not be masochistic at all...

Actually, I am going to have to disagree with you on this one specific point, otk.

I don't self inflict to get my pain fix. I don't know that many masocists who do, for that matter, unless there are other underlying psych issues to be dealt with which lead to things like cutting - which is a whole other sort of thing in and of itself, not even actually a masocistic responce. I do, however, frequently go to various events at the local dungeon play space and scene with various sadistic play partners. Most of those sadists consider themselves dominants, and yes they have submissive or slave regular partners for their power dynamic needs by and large, although there are some "unattached" sadists there that I play with as well simply because they're very good at what they do in scene. I've found that simply showing up and displaying a willingness to be on the recieving end of the flogger, crop, or paddle works quite nicely for presenting me with more opportunities to get my Fix than I can reasonably accept on any given night.

and exactly the reason i wrote "nearly impossible". i know that there are exceptions and that anything that can be thought of can usually happen.... i have heard of Masochist that are tops, and Sadists that are bottoms.... i prefer not to get into semantics of other folks definition of submiss or its derivations. but thank you so much for jumping on that, as i appreciate and welcome all views. it is a good and valid point.

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)

Post #: 27

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:00:14 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Then you have those who think that submissive = masochist.

Those types of comments always make me think that person making them is trying to make themselves feel better by tearing someone else down and I don't give their opinions too much weight.

Truthfully, not all pain is created equal. I have not met many who get pleasure from any and all type of pain. I am a masochist and my Lord can push me past the point of pleasure and it is all about submitting to him and the pain. I have a high pain tolerance for some things and then a low tolerance for others. My tolerance for pain has very little to do with submitting to him.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to ravn)

Post #: 28

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 5:14:29 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Being a masochist does not make you a bottom. Dominants and tops are masochists. Receiving pain is no different than receiving oral sex, it is an action. It is not bottoming to receive oral sex, and it is not bottoming to receive a whiping.. especially when you have told the one whipping you what flogger to use, how hard to do it, where to do it, and how long to do it...

Just my opinion, I could be wrong

Actually a Masochist is a Bottom ... but.. not all Bottoms are Masochists..

Bottoms are simply a person that recieves the actions of another the Top.

Most consider Top to be in control and Bottoms to not be in control. This in actually not universally true. In fact. The control... the person deciding what actions will be instigated can be decided by the Top or the Bottom. The control is reflective of Dominating vrs Submitting

                                     Top
                                   (Giver)
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
Dominate----------------------------------- Submit
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
                                 Bottom
                                   (reciever)

Most Dominants are in the Upper Left quadrant. While most Submissives are in the lower left quadrant. However, some dominants will put themselves in the lower left quadrant. IE... Recieving a blow Job.. but the still retain control. It is for this reason you hear the phrase "Topping from the Bottom". It is actually a poor phrase in that it would be more accurately stated as "Dominating from the Bottom" one can also Submit from the Top as well. My girls give very good blow jobs and massages.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 29

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 6:16:10 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I consider giving a blow job a very submissive action, but that is just me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 30

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:04:33 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

Posts: 1672
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I consider giving a blow job a very submissive action, but that is just me.

I actually found this quite amusing, Julia - primarily because I've always considered it a very Dominant action when I give one. It's a control thing. I'm very much in control of what they feel and when they feel it, dependant completely upon what techniques I happen to employ at any given instant.

(And just to clarify, so no one gets their panties in a twist assuming that I found Julia amusing or somehow "wrong" - what I found amusing was that we could have such diametrically opposed view of giving the action, and it's reflection in my own mind of various differences in our personalities that I've noted while reading posts.)

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 31

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:16:25 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I consider giving a blow job a very submissive action, but that is just me.

So does it follow for you then Julia, that if a Dom.Master.Daddy goes oral on His girl.. He's submitting?
and what about Dommes, who use long teasing oral to make their subs beg for release? <grins>
i think that's now how you meant it, given what i've read of your posts. But i'm just pointing it out, because a LOT of us assign Roles to behaviors without thinking about it. i'm guilty as well so this isn't pointing fingers!

i consider oral a few ways, depending on intent. If my intent is only to give pleasure, when He's sleeping i often try to not *allow* Him to wake up, because i know i am giving Him wild erotic dreams and the fantasy can be anyone He wants to imagine in His dream. What i love about this is it takes Me completely out of the equation Even though i am controlling the action, that feeds my slave-space incredibly.. But of course, He could wake up and stop it. and yes, it's consentual. <g> but i would say it is me "topping" Him. not Dominating.

Other times, it can just be taking pleasure in His dik because i have an itch on my tongue .. and it appeals to the nilla woman inside. And i hope He's awake and it's interactive!

It's the intent that defines an action. Some Dominants like to drive. They are controlling the action, and taking care of their subs. Some prefer to have the sub drive, as a service. So is driving a submissive or a Dominant behavior?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 32

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:19:00 PM

PainDaddy

Posts: 6
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline

It seems julia's opinion that giving a blow job is an act of submission directly reflects the opinion of many Doms that oral sex shows submission. Probably cuz all of the above didn't have partners who did so freely & willingly. That's the problem w/ the repressed society! As the Australian once said: He was glad Australia got all the criminals & the US got all the Puritans!

FWIW: being only a Dom (I don't switch) ... I have no problem w/ oral sex (i.e. cunnilingus) ... IF the sub/slave/wild woman of the moment is clean & fresh. Can't imagine any females are much different ... I mean ... they probably find the experience more pleasant if their partner has acquaintance with soap & water.

OTOH, I don't consider my subs/slaves being especially submissive during the times they are fellating me ... it's just a nice experience for both of us.

If we have to connect oral activity to submission ... I'd rank rimming, body worship, foot worship & boot worship as much more submissive than fellatio or cunnilingus. (But my dog doesn't :-) It's all a matter of opinion, indoctrination & inhibitions.

As to peach's POV that it's a time of increased control, I can't disagree at all. That little flick of the tongue ... &/or speed ... has lots of control in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I consider giving a blow job a very submissive action, but that is just me.

I actually found this quite amusing, Julia - primarily because I've always considered it a very Dominant action when I give one. It's a control thing. I'm very much in control of what they feel and when they feel it, dependant completely upon what techniques I happen to employ at any given instant.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)

Post #: 33

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:22:15 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

(And just to clarify, so no one gets their panties in a twist assuming that I found Julia amusing or somehow "wrong" - what I found amusing was that we could have such diametrically opposed view of giving the action, and it's reflection in my own mind of various differences in our personalities that I've noted while reading posts.)

Sorry, i was typing my post when you posted this peach. Yes, that's what i meant, i wasn't nabbing Julia on her personal perspective at all, just muzing at perspectives.

this reminds me of another thread, where somone asked if we change our views based on things read in the msg boards. This is exactly one of those things. i had always seen certain behaviors as Dominant and others as Submissive, until i was exposed to more Dommes and the many male subs that are my friends, and how we do the same things for very different reasons.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)

Post #: 34

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:29:59 PM

PainDaddy

Posts: 6
Joined: 4/3/2005
Status: offline

Good points, Knight ... let me toss in 1 more pair of variables to confuse everyone: active vs passive

A Dom may be Top & Active ... but may be either active of passive
... receiving a blow job is certainly more passive than active.

Subs/slaves/bottoms may also be active or passive. Wiggle it more ... suck harder ... discover new ways of sucking ... and be more responsive ... & you are more active. Lay there like a lump ... and you are passive.

I'm sure everyone thinks this is obvious now ... but not everyone realizes that sub is not always passive & vice versa.

Not all sadists have to be active or even dominant. Am sure there are plenty of closet self-professed sadistic dominants who get their rocks off on the internet, watching movies & in chat. Hardly active or dominant!

Anyway ... there are lots of aspects to BdSm play ... and few folks fall into stereotypes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Actually a Masochist is a Bottom ... but.. not all Bottoms are Masochists.
Bottoms are simply a person that recieves the actions of another the Top.
Most consider Top to be in control and Bottoms to not be in control. This in actually not universally true. In fact. The control... the person deciding what actions will be instigated can be decided by the Top or the Bottom. The control is reflective of Dominating vrs Submitting

                                    Top
                                  (Giver)
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
Dominate----------------------------------- Submit
                                       |
                                       |
                                       |
                                Bottom
                                  (reciever)

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 35

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 9:37:53 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

Posts: 1672
Status: offline

I honestly don't know that many female dominants on any sort of personal level. And the few that I Am aquainted with personally - well - they simply never "felt" like dominants to me. Or in comparison to me. Something like that. I have, however, had several dominant aquaintances, both male and female, who have told me repeatedly that I would "make a good domme" if I ever got the urge to be seriously In Control in a relationship.

PD - Here's a little twist for your active/passive variant lol. I'm an active masocist, a passive sadist, and rather neutral on the dominant/submissive axis - though that is a change from what I was in the past, which was active masocist, active submissive, passive sadist.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 36

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 10:13:38 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I am curious KnightofMists, if someone masturbates while inflicting pain on themselves are they bottoming or topping? I asked my Dom since he agrees with you, and he said "You think too much about weird shit", but I still had to ask...Ha Ha!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 37

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/13/2006 11:04:59 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I think you should rethink your diagram, and paradigm, Knight. Here's why.

If ...

quote:

Bottoms are simply a person that recieves the actions of another the Top.

and

quote:

My girls give very good blow jobs and massages.

(and at least some of these are given to you)

Then you are bottoming to them when they give you these procedures, which you seem to admit.

I will admit that to agree to use the words this way would let them align with a tidy little diagram. I am afraid though that this aligning with a diagram would come only at the cost of mis-aligning these words with a whole world of common usage and experience. And that is too high a price to pay.

In other words I'm holding that this amounts to just torturing the language when in fact there are so many tastier things to torture.

If the object of the diagram is to bring clarity, which I think it is--and which I think is the best sort of motivation for diagrams--I think it fails by causing at least as much confusion as it clears up.

Let's look a little further. Under your scheme you are bottoming to them when they give you their confidence. You are bottoming to them when they give you obedience. You are bottoming to them when they give you a haircut. You are bottoming to them when they give you their admission that they let you down in some fashion. You are bottoming to them when they give you the news that they have finally perfected the service you have had them working on for months. You are bottoming to them when they give their time, energy, resources or will to you in any way. You are bottoming to them, for heaven's sake, when they sign their cars, houses and retirement plans over to you.

Does anyone really want to say that? If so, they had better get used to hearing things like this:

"Yesterday we had a collaring cermony in which I gave my pledge of undying devotion to my dom. Then I gave him my bottom to whip and as a collaring present I gave him an exception to my branding limit, which he proceeded to make good use of. I guess no one could deny that I topped the living shit out of him!"

Well yeah, according to the diagram, she did top him, but ....

In the light of these examples I don't see how we can agree to make "the giving" the operative factor in our use of the terms "bottom" and "top" without causing more confusion than we resolve.

Besides, if we do we risk someone starting another "SUBMISSION IS/ISN"T A GIFT" thread. And we sure don't want that!

Anxious as usual to read your responses, Knight.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 38

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 6:18:05 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Noah... The diagram is in the context of Play (BDSMseX) Do agree that stretching diagram out of the narrow confines of Play activity that the thougths would lose it's appeal and/or value. The diagram holds no more value than that.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 39

RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 6:57:14 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

julia... I met this individual some time ago. He is unique that he Top's himself. He puts needles in himself and has put hooks on himself and suspended himself as well. I suppose if had more time to visit with him I am sure i would of found that he did alot of things that most would just not relate too. Generally when we consider BDSMsex Play we think in relationship to two or more individuals interacting. However, like a person masturbating... I think they are in effect being a giver and reciever of their own actions. But the added question is what is the motivation. Motivation being a question of dominating or submitting or is it even occuring. If one is told to go masturbate there is an outside control being exerted and thus one is submitting to the dominating of another. But what of a person that is internally motivated to perform the act? Are they both dominating and submitting to themselves at the same time? Is that what Self-Control is about. We control ourselves... thus dominating the urges and drives that pop in our heads... the heat that rises when those lovely dirty thoughts occur and deciding that yes or no we will go and masturbate. Are we submitting to the pleasures and gratfications that masturbation gives us? I think it is a fine line at times.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 40

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