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RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 7:13:46 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I consider giving a blow job a very submissive action, but that is just me. 


So does it follow for you then Julia, that if a Dom.Master.Daddy goes oral on His girl..  He's submitting?
and what about Dommes, who use long teasing oral to make their subs beg for release?  <grins>  
i think that's now how you meant it,  given what i've read of your posts.   But i'm just pointing it out, because a LOT of us assign Roles to behaviors without thinking about it.  i'm guilty as well so this isn't pointing fingers!

i consider oral a few ways, depending on intent. If my intent is only to give pleasure, when He's sleeping i often try to not *allow* Him to wake up, because i know i am giving Him wild erotic dreams and the fantasy can be anyone He wants to imagine in His dream.  What i love about this is it takes Me completely out of the equation  Even though i am controlling the action, that feeds my slave-space incredibly..  But of course, He could wake up and stop it. and yes,  it's consentual. <g>  but i would say it is me "topping" Him. not Dominating.

Other times,  it can just be taking pleasure in His dik because i have an itch on my tongue ..  and it appeals to the nilla woman inside.  And i hope He's awake and it's interactive!

It's the intent that defines an action.  Some Dominants like to drive.  They are controlling the action, and taking care of their subs.  Some prefer to have the sub drive, as a service.   So is driving a submissive or a Dominant behavior?



I consider it one of the most submissive actions I can do, for everyone it is different. I am saying that when I give a BJ I am directly trying to pleasure my Dom, it is all about him.... for me it is a submissive act. The strange thing is I derive great satisfation from it. He also sometimes takes his pleasure from my mouth, by grabbing my hair and doing what he will, then it is nothing like "giving a BJ", he is taking me.

It doesn't really matter to me what others feel about submitting or not submitting or bottoming or topping. I am aware how people feel about it all. Some even think a dominant should never give oral, I am not one of those, if my Dom wants to give that to me I do not think he is a submissive or a bottom for it. These are just my feelings about it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 7:16:46 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Yes  KnightofMists, I wondered where "control" would be in this situation, although it is an outlier I suppose.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 7:39:55 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		LOL, how well we can tangle things up with words.

I feel no act is inherently dominant or submissive, the act can be defined as d or s if there is a power or energy exxchange involved. What an observer sees may not be what they think.

I was slave to a Domme who loved to blow me as well as be blown by me, and those were Her Pleasures taken as She chose. I have had slaves who loved to blow me or be blown by me, but only may have either as I choose. In the first case She was in charge and in the second case no doubt that I was.

The BJ Domme also LOVED my skills with floggers, canes and paddles very much. She loved "making me" do others, and loved "making me" do Her too. An observer easily could draw a very incorrect inference about who was in charge. We always knew.

Many times I have trained a dominant or a submissive who negotiated to be trained by me, by having them experience both sides of an activity they wish to learn. Knowing both sides often helps us learn to be skillful quicker than learning top alone or the bottom side alone.

As usual, your mileage may vary!

vield


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 12:39:56 PM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		ravn,
 
Obviously that person who passed this judgement upon the way you fulfill your desires is not happy for you.  This scenario is no different in any other venue or way of life either.  Anywhere you go you will run into those who are only satisfied when others around them feel just as miserable or deprived as they do. Misery always loves company. i for one, wish for my friends and others i know, to share in my happiness with me, and not criticize me for feeling good.  Oh, and if anyone calls you selfish, cuz you enjoy (or need to be with) a Master who can bring you to sub space through administering pain, than turn it around and ask that person why THEY entered into this alternative way of life in the first place?  What the hec are they doing here? If that person is NOT in this to get their personal desires fulfilled, then what other motivations do they have for being involved; why bother, ya know?  If you are a maso-slave, (which for the time being i am as well) than go for it!  There are no right or wrong ways to live out a fantasy or desire, only endless combinations of possibilities as i see it. *smile
 
~raiken

(in reply to Caretakr)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 2:09:22 PM   
ravn


Posts: 328
Joined: 3/16/2006
Status: offline 		thanks guys
with diagrams and different POV's and some plain common sense you've all managed to help me feel loads better


_____________________________

Masochism is a valuable job skill.
Chuck Palahniuk
Love is a sweet tyranny, because the lover endureth his torments willingly.
~Proverb ( bring on the tyranny!)

(in reply to raiken)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 5:14:02 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:


Good points, Knight ... let me toss in 1 more pair of variables to confuse everyone:  active vs passive

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

                                  Top
                                (Giver)
                                     |
                                     |
                                     |
Dominate----------------------------------- Submit
                                     |
                                     |
                                     |
                                Bottom
                                (reciever)


I think when you talking Active and Passive... it is not alot different than Giver/Receiver.  Giver being Active and the Reciever being Passive.  Now this is not to say that a bottom is unresponsive responsive when a given action is directed on them.  but the actions of a bottom is the direct result of the actions of the Top... Cause and Effect!  So in essense, the Top is the Active Cause of the play while the Bottom is the Passive Effect of the play, with both demonstrating behaviors within the dynamics of play.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to PainDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 5:47:32 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Anyone who tells you you aren't doing it "right" and the right way is their way is full of shit, period.

You could tie me up, put lipstick on me and put me in a dress and I could, with the look of an eye, make many a lass fall to her knees with a wet cunt.

I know many submissives who few if anyone but their masters see their submissiveness because they are so strong and have such powerful presence. 

Ask in the Domme section if they can give head and still be in control and you will get 100 women saying not just yes, but HELL YES!

Same goes for me, I can go down on a woman and make love to her, but I can also go down on her and make it very clear who is, and who is not, in control of the flow of pleasure.

Tell the idiot who told you this that even a flipping crappydom can tell he is full of shit.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 6:03:54 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

You could tie me up, put lipstick on me and put me in a dress and I could, with the look of an eye, make many a lass fall to her knees with a wet cunt.


Yes you could - but damnit, now I wanna see PICTURES, CD.  (I'm thinking a nice blue gingham with white accents and some bright red shoes, ala Dorthey... )

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 6:22:12 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Peach,

here is my quandry.  I hate doing scenes where the goal is to get a reaction from the audience.  However, I love fucking with people (who could have guessed right?) and thought this would be a great mindbender.

Come to an event dressed as a TV, one where they know me and know which "label" to put on me.  Come with someone who is a known dominant or perhaps a submissive and then while staying in role visually, act opposite.  Have me, the tv slut, sitting on the chair and the domme on the floor.  When I flog her (something else I don't do) scream and yell "don't you love your little girl slut, whatever to beat you mistress"

Or something like that.  Just flip the roles all over the place and do it all "wrong" and see what sort of reactions we get.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/14/2006 6:58:48 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
here is my quandry.  I hate doing scenes where the goal is to get a reaction from the audience.  However, I love fucking with people (who could have guessed right?) 
  Nooooooo... really?  You gaining a bit of enjoyment out of fucking with someone's mind?  Say it isn't sooooooo!

quote:

  Just flip the roles all over the place and do it all "wrong" and see what sort of reactions we get.
   I'd love to hear how it goes, if you ever decide to carry through on your experiment.  Just don't choose an October play party to do so, or they'll assume it's all part of the whole Halloween thing.
 
(And damnit, I still want pictures - because the mental image of you with "That Look" on your face but in a dorthey costume is just... well... I can't find words to adequantely describe it.)

edited to add : btw - if you want a volunteer to help with the experiment - I know where you can find one *evil wicked nasty grin*

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 7/14/2006 7:00:13 PM >

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 12:03:22 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

Taylore, my Master is a sadist as well, but basically what i think i'm asking is- does being a masochist turn the relationship into something other than Master/slave? does it invalidate the relationship in any way?


No.  Whoever told you that was full of it, and suffering from OTW-ism disease.

(in reply to ravn)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 12:40:17 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl
unless you are a self inflicting masochist it's nearly impossible to be a masochist without a form of submission,


It's actually quite *easy* to be a masochist without any form of submission.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 12:45:59 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply,

Being a masochist does not make you a bottom. Dominants and tops are masochists. Receiving pain is no different than receiving oral sex, it is an action. It is not bottoming to receive oral sex, and it is not bottoming to receive a whiping.. especially when you have told the one whipping you what flogger to use, how hard to do it, where to do it, and how long to do it...

Just my opinion, I could be wrong


It *is* "bottoming" - but it's not *submitting*.

Bottom is simply the receiver of the action.  Except in cocksucking, where either one can be the "bottom", depending on the intent :)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 12:48:26 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

if someone masturbates while inflicting pain on themselves are they bottoming or topping?


Yes :)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 1:17:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

fast reply,

Being a masochist does not make you a bottom. Dominants and tops are masochists. Receiving pain is no different than receiving oral sex, it is an action. It is not bottoming to receive oral sex, and it is not bottoming to receive a whiping.. especially when you have told the one whipping you what flogger to use, how hard to do it, where to do it, and how long to do it...

Just my opinion, I could be wrong


It *is* "bottoming" - but it's not *submitting*.

Bottom is simply the receiver of the action.  Except in cocksucking, where either one can be the "bottom", depending on the intent :)


Is there some book about this? I would love to buy it to read for myself about these theories and definitions.

I think of masochism as something that exists outside of BDSM... as in a fetish that one needs present to gain sexual arousal. Not always is this the case, but if the masochist gets off on hurting themselves it is an action in isolation. These terms in my mind are related to the BDSM scene, if one is not a part of that scene, then they are not bottoming or topping, are they?

In fact I do not think of people that are not involved in WIITWD as having any topping or bottoming actions... but I am not educated in it from reading all the books on the subject. I need to get some books on the subject!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ImpGrrl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 2:16:08 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Is there some book about this? I would love to buy it to read for myself about these theories and definitions.


I'm sure there are...but like everything else, there will be mixed opinion.

quote:

I think of masochism as something that exists outside of BDSM... as in a fetish that one needs present to gain sexual arousal.


If you take "BDSM" as an exact acronym (it's not, really), then one of the SM interpretations is sado/masochism.  So - it exists within BDSM, on a technicality.

As a "pure" fetish, I might agree - a "pure" fetish being one of the psychological definition, where a person *needs* the activity or object in order to be aroused/reach orgasm.  But we don't tend to use the term "fetish" that "purely" in this lexicon.  It's used as more of an action or object that is likely to produce/increase arousal/likelihood of orgasm, but most of us are not "pure" fetishists where we *need* the item or object.

So, our fetishes are helpful, but not always necessary, to arousal.  It's *these* types of fetishes that I believe are included in BDSM.  All of them.

quote:

Not always is this the case, but if the masochist gets off on hurting themselves it is an action in isolation.


Sure!  There's even a term for it - "automasochism". 

quote:

These terms in my mind are related to the BDSM scene, if one is not a part of that scene, then they are not bottoming or topping, are they?


Yes, I think they are.

"Bottom" and "top" came from the gay men's community - not the leather community, or BDSM.  It indicated the receiver and the giver of the action in sex.

It then spread to the gay SM community - and still meant the same thing, though the use gradually expanded to also include D/S.  The difference was:

Top - Noun = any d-type or sadist.  "She's my top."
Top - Verb = activity in a scene/sex.  "I topped her the other day."
Bottom - Noun = any s-type or masochist.  "I am the bottom in this relationship."
Bottom - Verb = activity in a scene/sex.  "I watched her bottom in that caning scene last night - she's a heavy masochist!"

And as such, it's spread to the het SM and D/S communities - but I've seen that the relationship identifier use has mostly stayed with the queers.  Mostly in het SM or D/S, "top" and "bottom" mean act-er and act-ee.

quote:

In fact I do not think of people that are not involved in WIITWD as having any topping or bottoming actions...


Anyone engaging in sex is either "topping" or "bottoming" - or both.  They just might not *call* it that. 

Fetishists might not do either - if their fetish is dressing in latex, there may be neither a top or a bottom in that.  But if they then have sex in the latex, the inserter is the "top" and the insertee is the "bottom".  And they can do both :)

quote:

but I am not educated in it from reading all the books on the subject. I need to get some books on the subject!


They might just confuse you more - or they might help :)


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 3:56:01 PM   
deltadawn


Posts: 224
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn

i was on the receiving end of a comment tonight that basically said that i was not a worthwhile slave if i enjoyed a session for the pain.

i am a masochist- through and through, i'm not gonna lie, because there is no point in it. But truly- what i'm asking is this:

Is there a difference in submission where you accept the pain in a session because it's about the submission, and submission where you accept the pain in a session because you enjoy the pain?

Does being a masochist invalidate my worth as a slave?

::EDIT:: This comment was NOT received from my Master- it was from another submissive



No, being a masochist does not invalidate anything.  Only the 2 of you validate what makes you a slave.  My question would be to the submissive who felt it did......Just how much real time D/s has she experienced?

dawn

_____________________________

Beneath his wings, I can fly.

(in reply to ravn)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 4:42:08 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear ravn, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I do sessions with a heavy masochist and is no way a submissive.  And, yet this masochist feeds me in an act of submission because that feeds me as much as I feed him with heavy scenes.  Once the scene is over, we talk as individuals.
 
Service comes in many shapes, in my mind's eye.  The quality of submission is really between the Top/Dominant and the bottom/submissive as it would be between the Sadist/masochist.
 
Slaves/submissives/bottoms enjoy service, to include receiving pain, which is a service.  Having someone who enjoys service in receiving pain, is no different in my mind's eye as receiving much joy and happiness in serving my afternoon tea and being my companion.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to ravn)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: masochism and submission - is there a conflict? - 7/16/2006 5:27:27 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear ravn, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I do sessions with a heavy masochist and is no way a submissive.  And, yet this masochist feeds me in an act of submission because that feeds me as much as I feed him with heavy scenes.  Once the scene is over, we talk as individuals.
 
Service comes in many shapes, in my mind's eye.  The quality of submission is really between the Top/Dominant and the bottom/submissive as it would be between the Sadist/masochist.
 
Slaves/submissives/bottoms enjoy service, to include receiving pain, which is a service.  Having someone who enjoys service in receiving pain, is no different in my mind's eye as receiving much joy and happiness in serving my afternoon tea and being my companion.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs


Not all bottoms enjoy service of *any* type, either.

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 59
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