quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

FR

I think the reason Hillary lost is that she had such a short memory.

If memory serves there was a movie called The War Room made after
Bill won the first time. I found the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Room

"The film follows James Carville and George Stephanopoulos at first
during the New Hampshire Primary, and then mostly in Little Rock,
Arkansas, at Clinton Campaign Headquarters."

Across the back wall there was a large banner.

It's The Economy Stupid

She and her team were stupid. They forgot.

Too easy to write because there we were in recessions in 1992, 2000 and 2008, we were not during 2016, in a recession. That some felt that the recovery didn't lift all boats...it must be something else.

Must be all of those 'establishment' politicians and regulations and profiting off illegal immigration. Must be all of things that have taken away the good, working, white christian world we lived in back then but nothing that wasn't left un-addressed by any politician for 20-30 years.

Now it had to be the establishment, this time seen in the face of an uppity lefty, woman lawyer no less.

Obama had a recovery??? Reagan had a recovery. Obama doubled the debt and never had a growth above 2.6%. The best you can say is he proved Keynesian economics to be worthless.

Well it seems to me that Obama got us through one of the worst financial crisis we've ever had. Whether you like it or not... give credit where credit is due. When he was elected, no one even wanted to be President.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Agreed it would be a difficult birth for any 3rd party.
That said:
- third parties bear responsibility when they advance protest candidates instead of broadly qualified ones
- The Whigs were once the other major party. Republicans did them in.
- Progressives are not happy inside the neo-Democratic party (the other oligarchy party).
- The current mess in the GOP is unsustainable long term. Something has to happen. Not sure what.
However:
- the Constitution strongly favors a 2-party system, given the requirement to win the presidency by 50+%.
- even if a third party "won" and carried 49% of the vote, the election would go to the House.
I suppose one "solution" is having a third party majority in the House first. That's . . . unlikely. Or a massive compromise deal. In today's Congressional environment, also unlikely.
One solution would be ranked voting. People could vote their conscience without "wasting" their vote. That would at least give a third party candidate a chance, if they were very, very popular.
And if party electors were faithful.
Or...change the Constitution to have runoffs. With ranked voting, that could happen automatically, without a second election.

Would ranked voting require a Constitutional Amendment?

quote:

But . . . the current 2-party Congress and state governments would have to agree.
And it's in their own selfish interests not to agree.
Best path? An amazing campaign by an Independent, faithful electors, and a takeover of Congress by third parties.
Not looking good. But we have to start somewhere.

That's why I encouraged people not supporting Trump/Clinton to vote Johnson/Stein. They weren't going to win, but it helps build the ballot line, matching campaign funding, and increases public awareness of options. I consider it a vote building toward the future in an election where I couldn't in good conscience vote for either primary winner.

On the bolded part, we completely agree. I just wish I would have started down that path from the get-go.

quote:

And speaking of that -- I also favor open primaries in every state.
Surprisingly, Schumer supports that in NY (curious because the current shut-out helps establishment Democrats, but I'm glad he does. We'll see where it goes).

Why would open primaries help?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) Yes, it would.
2) Because all voters, not just registered party members, would be choosing candidates. In the last election, 9% of voters chose Trump/Clinton, the choice the other 91% had to live with. (I'm not gonna look for it--I posted it several times before the election -- the NYT has a nice graphic on this)

1) I'm not sure I see that happening then.

2) Where were the other 91% of registered voters? That they didn't give enough of a damn to show up and vote sure means something.

I like the idea I floated near the end of the election cycle. No party affiliations allowed on ballots. Everyone who meets the criteria and wants to run can run. First primary is in the Spring, and it narrows the field to 10 candidates. The next primary would be in mid-Summer and would narrow the field down to 5 or so. The November election would still not have any allowance for party affiliation on the ballot. Top two Electoral College winners are Pres/VP. Without an Amendment, we'd still be saddled with the 50%+1 EC vote requirement or it goes to the House, but even then, the election would be more open and, ultimately, more representative of America. I'd also love to see the field of 5 only be able to spend X number of dollars and those dollars solely coming from the Federal Government.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) Yes, it would.
2) Because all voters, not just registered party members, would be choosing candidates. In the last election, 9% of voters chose Trump/Clinton, the choice the other 91% had to live with. (I'm not gonna look for it--I posted it several times before the election -- the NYT has a nice graphic on this)

1) I'm not sure I see that happening then.

2) Where were the other 91% of registered voters? That they didn't give enough of a damn to show up and vote sure means something.

I like the idea I floated near the end of the election cycle. No party affiliations allowed on ballots. Everyone who meets the criteria and wants to run can run. First primary is in the Spring, and it narrows the field to 10 candidates. The next primary would be in mid-Summer and would narrow the field down to 5 or so. The November election would still not have any allowance for party affiliation on the ballot. Top two Electoral College winners are Pres/VP. Without an Amendment, we'd still be saddled with the 50%+1 EC vote requirement or it goes to the House, but even then, the election would be more open and, ultimately, more representative of America. I'd also love to see the field of 5 only be able to spend X number of dollars and those dollars solely coming from the Federal Government.

We agree on a lot of things DS and this one is good. I guess somebody close, like happened to me also told you, if you are going to fantasize...go all of the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I think a healthy society is one that encompasses both "liberal" and "conservative" values.

I don't know how you can support Trump and support the above. Clinton did the above... Where has Trump reached out to Democrats?

Butch

Can you tell me of a time, a person of stature within the Democrat party who has reached out to Trump? Not the one or two Congresscritters who are up for election in states he won ...

In other words, when did "the resistance" start, and who isn't a part of it, on the Democrat side?

Firm

Where the hell were you the last 8 years ? The repubs were the ultimate political stonewall for the 6 years they could be, most prolifically demonstrated by blocking Obama's supreme court nominee.

Any repub that even suggested let alone tried to reach out to Obama, had their...hands cut off by the RNC and the caucuses.

Let this country go from a centrist black democrat in the white house to a white RINO who has no hole for his tiny peg, as batshit crazy as they come and now...oh now, yes now kinkroids, we are to 'reach out' to poor Trump now.

Yeaaa right.

If you want dems to start acting AS repubs will debate bills, offer amends. and when they do come to a vote, have some approved.

Then as the whole bill makes it to the floor, vote unanimously against it.

Usually you should wait a few decades before you start to revise history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

I give Canadians no weight in opinion on this issue.

Nobody gives a fuck what you give weight to, you are completely irrelevant once you click the OK button

Funny how the American right has no problem and hasn't for 40 years, very regularly, vocally and prominently as rather very publicly...denigrating Europe. It's politics, its tax/spending regime and economics are all ridiculous and amounts to a form of socialism...always fair game.

But those 'damn fereners' should just shut the hell up about us Americans.

Well, if you want to take that conversation out of context and start conspiracy theories, your comment is right on target.

quote:

Many of the same people stating a 3rd party will NEVER win

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

I give Canadians no weight in opinion on this issue.

Nobody gives a fuck what you give weight to, you are completely irrelevant once you click the OK button

Funny how the American right has no problem and hasn't for 40 years, very regularly, vocally and prominently as rather very publicly...denigrating Europe. It's politics, its tax/spending regime and economics are all ridiculous and amounts to a form of socialism...always fair game.

But those 'damn fereners' should just shut the hell up about us Americans.

Well, if you want to take that conversation out of context and start conspiracy theories, your comment is right on target.

I wasn't having a conversation, I was making a statement. There's no conspiracy. It's a big part of the right wing dialogue today and has been since Reagan. It has been and is still very public.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Many of the same people stating a 3rd party will NEVER win

The Republican party started as a 3rd party.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

FR

I think the reason Hillary lost is that she had such a short memory.

If memory serves there was a movie called The War Room made after
Bill won the first time. I found the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Room

"The film follows James Carville and George Stephanopoulos at first
during the New Hampshire Primary, and then mostly in Little Rock,
Arkansas, at Clinton Campaign Headquarters."

Across the back wall there was a large banner.

It's The Economy Stupid

She and her team were stupid. They forgot.

Too easy to write because there we were in recessions in 1992, 2000 and 2008, we were not during 2016, in a recession. That some felt that the recovery didn't lift all boats...it must be something else.

Must be all of those 'establishment' politicians and regulations and profiting off illegal immigration. Must be all of things that have taken away the good, working, white christian world we lived in back then but nothing that wasn't left un-addressed by any politician for 20-30 years.

Now it had to be the establishment, this time seen in the face of an uppity lefty, woman lawyer no less.

Obama had a recovery??? Reagan had a recovery. Obama doubled the debt and never had a growth above 2.6%. The best you can say is he proved Keynesian economics to be worthless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

FR

I think the reason Hillary lost is that she had such a short memory.

If memory serves there was a movie called The War Room made after
Bill won the first time. I found the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Room

"The film follows James Carville and George Stephanopoulos at first
during the New Hampshire Primary, and then mostly in Little Rock,
Arkansas, at Clinton Campaign Headquarters."

Across the back wall there was a large banner.

It's The Economy Stupid

She and her team were stupid. They forgot.
CAVAET--- THEY DID NOT FORGET- THEY WERE CORPORATE LIBERALS!
How can you support and embrace big business and really help anyone?
When will people wake up?
CORPORATE LIBERALS only throw crumbs and money at a few social issues, often will raise taxes, and increase and fund more government programs,
they will NOT go against big business.
THEY WILL NOT GO AGAINST THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

TRUTH!

>Little could further from the truth.

Repubs favor elimination of net neutrality in the interest of the corporations that would profit.
Dems don't
Repubs favor deregulating 40 year old water and air rules in support of corporate profits
Dems don't.
Repubs every year without fail, vote for either a status quo or increase in farm welfare in the interest of agric. corps.
Dems don't
Repubs deregulate banking, once again allowing risky banking at banks known to be too big to fail, in a direct regulatory windfall for wall street and banking corporations.
Dems don't
Repubs want to lower corp. taxes which is nothing more than raising corp. profits.
Most dems don't.
Repubs vote against or marginalize federal consumer protection in the interest of corp. profits.
Dems don't.
Repubs vote for a pipeline that will not change the oil marketplace in any way but just give favors to the investor class and the corporate fossil fuel industry.
Dems don't

I am sure I could go on and on but save those for another time.

Every one of those statements is simplistic regarding complex issues. But I guess if you're looking to recruit into a conspiracy cult the KISS method is best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

FR

I think the reason Hillary lost is that she had such a short memory.

If memory serves there was a movie called The War Room made after
Bill won the first time. I found the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Room

"The film follows James Carville and George Stephanopoulos at first
during the New Hampshire Primary, and then mostly in Little Rock,
Arkansas, at Clinton Campaign Headquarters."

Across the back wall there was a large banner.

It's The Economy Stupid

She and her team were stupid. They forgot.

Too easy to write because there we were in recessions in 1992, 2000 and 2008, we were not during 2016, in a recession. That some felt that the recovery didn't lift all boats...it must be something else.

Must be all of those 'establishment' politicians and regulations and profiting off illegal immigration. Must be all of things that have taken away the good, working, white christian world we lived in back then but nothing that wasn't left un-addressed by any politician for 20-30 years.

Now it had to be the establishment, this time seen in the face of an uppity lefty, woman lawyer no less.

Obama had a recovery??? Reagan had a recovery. Obama doubled the debt and never had a growth above 2.6%. The best you can say is he proved Keynesian economics to be worthless.

Going by the same numbers coming out of institutions the right clings to when singing their own praises, yes Obama brought us out of recession.

Reagan's Keynesian economy quadrupled the debt, With Bush I's continued Keynesian debts forcing a tax hike. Yet, it is mythology that that, cost him a 2nd term.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

FR

I think the reason Hillary lost is that she had such a short memory.

If memory serves there was a movie called The War Room made after
Bill won the first time. I found the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Room

"The film follows James Carville and George Stephanopoulos at first
during the New Hampshire Primary, and then mostly in Little Rock,
Arkansas, at Clinton Campaign Headquarters."

Across the back wall there was a large banner.

It's The Economy Stupid

She and her team were stupid. They forgot.
CAVAET--- THEY DID NOT FORGET- THEY WERE CORPORATE LIBERALS!
How can you support and embrace big business and really help anyone?
When will people wake up?
CORPORATE LIBERALS only throw crumbs and money at a few social issues, often will raise taxes, and increase and fund more government programs,
they will NOT go against big business.
THEY WILL NOT GO AGAINST THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

TRUTH!

>Little could further from the truth.

Repubs favor elimination of net neutrality in the interest of the corporations that would profit.
Dems don't
Repubs favor deregulating 40 year old water and air rules in support of corporate profits
Dems don't.
Repubs every year without fail, vote for either a status quo or increase in farm welfare in the interest of agric. corps.
Dems don't
Repubs deregulate banking, once again allowing risky banking at banks known to be too big to fail, in a direct regulatory windfall for wall street and banking corporations.
Dems don't
Repubs want to lower corp. taxes which is nothing more than raising corp. profits.
Most dems don't.
Repubs vote against or marginalize federal consumer protection in the interest of corp. profits.
Dems don't.
Repubs vote for a pipeline that will not change the oil marketplace in any way but just give favors to the investor class and the corporate fossil fuel industry.
Dems don't

I am sure I could go on and on but save those for another time.

Every one of those statements is simplistic regarding complex issues. But I guess if you're looking to recruit into a conspiracy cult the KISS method is best.

If they are simplistic at all, except being a rent-seeking whore, it is a reflection and a very accurate one at that and of how, to put it simply...the repubs and far too much of the right are in fact this country's corporatists and create some very cozy and profitable bedtime fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) Yes, it would.
2) Because all voters, not just registered party members, would be choosing candidates. In the last election, 9% of voters chose Trump/Clinton, the choice the other 91% had to live with. (I'm not gonna look for it--I posted it several times before the election -- the NYT has a nice graphic on this)

1) I'm not sure I see that happening then.

2) Where were the other 91% of registered voters? That they didn't give enough of a damn to show up and vote sure means something.

I like the idea I floated near the end of the election cycle. No party affiliations allowed on ballots. Everyone who meets the criteria and wants to run can run. First primary is in the Spring, and it narrows the field to 10 candidates. The next primary would be in mid-Summer and would narrow the field down to 5 or so. The November election would still not have any allowance for party affiliation on the ballot. Top two Electoral College winners are Pres/VP. Without an Amendment, we'd still be saddled with the 50%+1 EC vote requirement or it goes to the House, but even then, the election would be more open and, ultimately, more representative of America. I'd also love to see the field of 5 only be able to spend X number of dollars and those dollars solely coming from the Federal Government.

We agree on a lot of things DS and this one is good. I guess somebody close, like happened to me also told you, if you are going to fantasize...go all of the way.

If you didn't get any more than a token showing from either of the potential third parties somebody might have voted for last year (the Libertarians and the Greens), fantasising might be all that's left. at this point..

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I think a healthy society is one that encompasses both "liberal" and "conservative" values.

I don't know how you can support Trump and support the above. Clinton did the above... Where has Trump reached out to Democrats?

Butch

Can you tell me of a time, a person of stature within the Democrat party who has reached out to Trump? Not the one or two Congresscritters who are up for election in states he won ...

In other words, when did "the resistance" start, and who isn't a part of it, on the Democrat side?

Firm

Where the hell were you the last 8 years ? The repubs were the ultimate political stonewall for the 6 years they could be, most prolifically demonstrated by blocking Obama's supreme court nominee.

Any repub that even suggested let alone tried to reach out to Obama, had their...hands cut off by the RNC and the caucuses.

Let this country go from a centrist black democrat in the white house to a white RINO who has no hole for his tiny peg, as batshit crazy as they come and now...oh now, yes now kinkroids, we are to 'reach out' to poor Trump now.

Yeaaa right.

If you want dems to start acting AS repubs will debate bills, offer amends. and when they do come to a vote, have some approved.

Then as the whole bill makes it to the floor, vote unanimously against it.

Usually you should wait a few decades before you start to revise history.

That is exactly what has happened and many times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

FR

I think the reason Hillary lost is that she had such a short memory.

If memory serves there was a movie called The War Room made after
Bill won the first time. I found the Wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Room

"The film follows James Carville and George Stephanopoulos at first
during the New Hampshire Primary, and then mostly in Little Rock,
Arkansas, at Clinton Campaign Headquarters."

Across the back wall there was a large banner.

It's The Economy Stupid

She and her team were stupid. They forgot.

Too easy to write because there we were in recessions in 1992, 2000 and 2008, we were not during 2016, in a recession. That some felt that the recovery didn't lift all boats...it must be something else.

Must be all of those 'establishment' politicians and regulations and profiting off illegal immigration. Must be all of things that have taken away the good, working, white christian world we lived in back then but nothing that wasn't left un-addressed by any politician for 20-30 years.

Now it had to be the establishment, this time seen in the face of an uppity lefty, woman lawyer no less.

Obama had a recovery??? Reagan had a recovery. Obama doubled the debt and never had a growth above 2.6%. The best you can say is he proved Keynesian economics to be worthless.

Going by the same numbers coming out of institutions the right clings to when singing their own praises, yes Obama brought us out of recession.

Reagan's Keynesian economy quadrupled the debt, With Bush I's continued Keynesian debts forcing a tax hike. Yet, it is mythology that that, cost him a 2nd term.

Ya, I've seen those conspiracy theories from you time and again. It's one of your favorites. I'm not going to argue it with you because in the black and white world of your conspiracies I really don't think the neural pathways in your brain can actually handle discussion. I just like to point out when you are making shit up. I never expect you'll change your thinking.