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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 2:56:43 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I brought a munch to a halt the other day when I made the comment that anyone who needs five days of aftercare after an average scene isn't ready to really do BDSM.

I am curious what people like LA think about that.


I agree with that.  Of course, I have only played with a top who doesn't really do aftercare.  A blanket, pat on the head and some time to get my feet back under me then it is time to start serving him again.  If I required prolonged aftercare whenever we played, he would not play with me until I could demonstrate that I was capable of managing my emotions more effectively.



_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 3:08:47 PM   
bellanotte


Posts: 125
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Tornado Alley, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

quote:

ORIGINAL: bellanotte

I'm not sure I understand your response. Where did drama and unresolved issues come into the picture?


I think the point he is trying to make is that there are some people that will "milk" it for all it's worth. A week later they may still be claiming to be suffering from sub drop just to get additional attention. And there are also some that have unresolved issues that really need to be dealt with prior to "scening". Emotional difficulties that come to the surface (in a bad way) when they hit subspace. Am I close Michael?
 
Jewel


Ahhhhhhh..... I see, now. That is a very valid point..... most submissives I am acquainted with I don't think would act in that manner but there are always a few who do I suppose. I had not thought of the "milking" aspect before - if one wants attention there are more appropriate ways of getting it.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 6:23:23 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I brought a munch to a halt the other day when I made the comment that anyone who needs five days of aftercare after an average scene isn't ready to really do BDSM.

I am curious what people like LA think about that.


I agree with that.  Of course, I have only played with a top who doesn't really do aftercare.  A blanket, pat on the head and some time to get my feet back under me then it is time to start serving him again.  If I required prolonged aftercare whenever we played, he would not play with me until I could demonstrate that I was capable of managing my emotions more effectively.




I also agree re: "average play."  I did the drama queen thing once about wanting more (I was really dramatic, too).  The result was no play until I got over myself.  Mind you, we're talking average play.  There have been times when my mind was so stretched I needed days, even weeks to process it, and as long as I could do so calmly and drama-free, all was well.  

Then again, "average" is up to the definer I suppose.  Regardless, I learned to not need much at all - a pat on the head and a "good girl" (or equivalent) - and I'm glad to free up his time and energy this way.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 7:09:12 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		I am curious as to why "aftercare" is looked upon by some Dominants as a , dare I say, "necessary evil"?..I would think that aftercare, at least within a couple dynamic,and not simply "scening", would be highly pleasurable, and desired by both......Tempting

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 7:11:44 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

I am curious as to why "aftercare" is looked upon by some Dominants as a , dare I say, "necessary evil"?..I would think that aftercare, at least within a couple dynamic,and not simply "scening", would be highly pleasurable, and desired by both......Tempting


Some just aren't the cuddly-touchy-feely-affectionate type. Not everyone is pleasured by the same thing.  He would rather relax, and I would rather dote on him when he does.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 7:16:13 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

I am curious as to why "aftercare" is looked upon by some Dominants as a , dare I say, "necessary evil"?..I would think that aftercare, at least within a couple dynamic,and not simply "scening", would be highly pleasurable, and desired by both......Tempting


Tempting... some Tops look at as a neccessary evil.... just like some bottoms look at as a neccessary neccessity of need.

Personally... think many make alot more that is or should be.  I do however like your line of thought that i should be another stage in the play that can be pleasurable for the dynamic.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 7:19:43 PM   
SweetAndInnocent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

I am curious as to why "aftercare" is looked upon by some Dominants as a , dare I say, "necessary evil"?..I would think that aftercare, at least within a couple dynamic,and not simply "scening", would be highly pleasurable, and desired by both......Tempting


Some just aren't the cuddly-touchy-feely-affectionate type. Not everyone is pleasured by the same thing.  He would rather relax, and I would rather dote on him when he does.


I agree with this completely.  Give me a few minutes to get my mind together, but don't hug on me while I am doing it.  The most rewarding, and centering, aftercare for me, is bringing him a drink, and sitting at his feet while he drinks it.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 9:42:55 PM   
jadein


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		Hmmmm .. this thread is making me wonder something.  Is there a thought that those of us who might need more aftercare for whatever reasons are too needy or somehow "bad" submissives?   I mean I understand some people aren't cuddly, touchy, feely... whatever.  But for someone like me who hasn't experienced a whole lot as far as real life goes ... subdrop might hit me pretty hard depending on the situation.   Am I assuming to much when I think I'd be looked apon badly because I might not feel better by basically dusting my ass off and immediatly serving whomever it might be?

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 11:28:21 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jadein

Hmmmm .. this thread is making me wonder something.  Is there a thought that those of us who might need more aftercare for whatever reasons are too needy or somehow "bad" submissives?   I mean I understand some people aren't cuddly, touchy, feely... whatever.  But for someone like me who hasn't experienced a whole lot as far as real life goes ... subdrop might hit me pretty hard depending on the situation.   Am I assuming to much when I think I'd be looked apon badly because I might not feel better by basically dusting my ass off and immediatly serving whomever it might be?


Do you need more aftercare or just want more aftercare?  Then there is also the type of aftercare that you are seeking?  Most of what I need after a scene is a little assistance to take care of the physical aspects, i.e. blanket, help me sit, drink and a little food.  It is much like the physical requirements my body has after an intense workout, rest, drink and food.  The physical aspects can vary depending on the overall health of a person.

It seems that what many are seeking in terms of aftercare is for the mental and emotional aspects, cuddling, hugging, checking in, reassurance, etc.  What you negotiate for this is what you should expect.  Expecting something outside of what is negotiated and reasonable is unrealistic.

You mentioned subdrop.  It is my opinion that if a bottom is constantly experiencing subdrop with an average type of play then they need to stop playing until they can learn to take care of themselves physically and manage their emotions better.  In the past two years, I have only experienced subdrop once and that was due to my inexperience, but after that one time I learned how to manage myself.  I do not rely on the person I am playing with to manage it for me after a typical play between us.

There are some more intense scenes that we have done, where it has taken me longer to come back to a normal state of being.  He kept me locked in his dungeon for a day and a half and pushed me really hard in many ways.  After he brought me out, life continued as normal and he kept himself available and around for me to turn to.  He would not have attempted that type of play if he was not able to be available to me afterwards.   

What most people seem to be referring to when they discuss aftercare is what naturally happens in my day to day life with him anyway.  I do not view it as aftercare because we would be interacting that way even without the play.  He has played me really hard and then put me on a plane several hours later with complete confidence that I am capable of taking care of myself.  If I couldn't do that then it would severely limit the type of play he could do with me.

Whether a bottom is viewed poorly or not, I do not know.  I know that if a lot of aftercare is what is wanted for someone, they would not make a good bottom for my Lord and probably not for others either.  It is a matter of preference and not necessarily whether one is better than the other. 

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to jadein)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/5/2007 11:30:27 PM   
completenz


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Status: offline 		hi
The aftercare C gives me is part of our session and we both enjoy it. He gives me as much, or as little, as i need. This differs depending on the intensity of our 'touch'.
c

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 4:56:06 AM   
SweetAndInnocent


Posts: 59
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: jadein

Hmmmm .. this thread is making me wonder something.  Is there a thought that those of us who might need more aftercare for whatever reasons are too needy or somehow "bad" submissives?   I mean I understand some people aren't cuddly, touchy, feely... whatever.  But for someone like me who hasn't experienced a whole lot as far as real life goes ... subdrop might hit me pretty hard depending on the situation.   Am I assuming to much when I think I'd be looked apon badly because I might not feel better by basically dusting my ass off and immediatly serving whomever it might be?


Do you need more aftercare or just want more aftercare?  Then there is also the type of aftercare that you are seeking?  Most of what I need after a scene is a little assistance to take care of the physical aspects, i.e. blanket, help me sit, drink and a little food.  It is much like the physical requirements my body has after an intense workout, rest, drink and food.  The physical aspects can vary depending on the overall health of a person.

It seems that what many are seeking in terms of aftercare is for the mental and emotional aspects, cuddling, hugging, checking in, reassurance, etc.  What you negotiate for this is what you should expect.  Expecting something outside of what is negotiated and reasonable is unrealistic.
 
The biggest problem with this is that plenty, plenty, plenty of people don't consider aftercare at all in their negotiations.  It is also impossible to predict what will be needed when you are doing things that have never been done before.


You mentioned subdrop.  It is my opinion that if a bottom is constantly experiencing subdrop with an average type of play then they need to stop playing until they can learn to take care of themselves physically and manage their emotions better.  In the past two years, I have only experienced subdrop once and that was due to my inexperience, but after that one time I learned how to manage myself.  I do not rely on the person I am playing with to manage it for me after a typical play between us.

I really have to disagree with this.  I've been doing this for years and still experience that "drop" quite often. I don't think it has anything to do with not being able to "manage my emotions".  However, I will say that I don't need someone else to fix it for me.  I just know what to expect and know how to be prepared for it.

There are some more intense scenes that we have done, where it has taken me longer to come back to a normal state of being.  He kept me locked in his dungeon for a day and a half and pushed me really hard in many ways.  After he brought me out, life continued as normal and he kept himself available and around for me to turn to.  He would not have attempted that type of play if he was not able to be available to me afterwards.   

What most people seem to be referring to when they discuss aftercare is what naturally happens in my day to day life with him anyway.  I do not view it as aftercare because we would be interacting that way even without the play.  He has played me really hard and then put me on a plane several hours later with complete confidence that I am capable of taking care of myself.  If I couldn't do that then it would severely limit the type of play he could do with me.

Whether a bottom is viewed poorly or not, I do not know.  I know that if a lot of aftercare is what is wanted for someone, they would not make a good bottom for my Lord and probably not for others either.  It is a matter of preference and not necessarily whether one is better than the other. 
 
I am curious about you saying "probably not for others either".  Are you suggesting that a bottom who needs a lot of aftercare wont be able to find a top interested in playing?  Or, where you talking about a few others?


Knight's kyra

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 5:11:23 AM   
goodpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

To clarify a point.  I would do what I felt was beyond the call of duty ONCE to take of someone even if I thought they were being a drama queen and using the "need" for aftercare to get attention long after the real need had passed.

I would however reevaluate my interest in playing with them if I felt that the amount of aftercare was due to unresolved issues more than our play.


I understand your point here and agree with it.

If the issue is that the play opened up a feeling or emotion that is taking longer to deal with then that is something different, I think the OP might be feeling and experience new things with the deeper play and needing more time to process things..  This does not happen all the time but once in a while it will.

When it seems to be a call for more attention and using 'i need aftercare' as the reason to demand more attention days after a scene, i too question what the real motivation is.  That become more a drama queen issue then a real need.

Way too often this extended aftercare is from a rather normal scene (for them) but with a Dom they found Hot and desirable.  i see them do a heavier, more intense, scene from a good Top, but not as desirable Dom to them, and they need relatively no aftercare..

It seems a bit transparent to me but.. they use the 'everyone is different' motto to justify why they need all the attention days and days after one scene. Whatever, it is obvious to most, but the poor Dom is stuck between a rock and hard place.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 7:32:07 AM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jadein

Hmmmm .. this thread is making me wonder something.  Is there a thought that those of us who might need more aftercare for whatever reasons are too needy or somehow "bad" submissives?   I mean I understand some people aren't cuddly, touchy, feely... whatever.  But for someone like me who hasn't experienced a whole lot as far as real life goes ... subdrop might hit me pretty hard depending on the situation.   Am I assuming to much when I think I'd be looked apon badly because I might not feel better by basically dusting my ass off and immediatly serving whomever it might be?


I don't think most would look upon them as bad submissives just because they need more extended aftercare. It really does depend on the dynamic between the people in that particular scene. As a dominant I may want to talk about it as long as a few days later, depending on the intensity of the scene. I know one lady that is great right after an intense scene and the drop doesn't hit her until a day or two later, but when it hits her it really hits her hard. It's just something that needs to be discussed with the top or dominant and find out how they feel about it. In my opinion it's just another one of those things that need to match up pretty well.
 
Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 8:47:03 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
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Status: offline 		Fast reply.....

I have found this thread interesting and I've been trying to understand the references to the "needy" but I'm not sure if I can really get a good grasp on what is being referred to. I find it interesting that there seems to be an underlying tone of a universal standard as to what should or should not be required...and also a seeming sentiment that those who require at the "needier" end of the spectrum are less than desirable. We are, after all, distinctly different individuals and I would think it unreasonable to assume that our requirements could be so easily standardized.

Maybe I am just not considering the possibilities as I don't know that I can come up with any clear, real life examples of what I would consider to be over the top in the neediness department. I have seen scenes where a submissive will scream mercilessly, will require copious amounts of aftercare  and then will sit around and act like they are in a drunken stupor for hours after 10 swats with a rabbit fur flogger...that kind of thing....but I don't associate those types with any degree of credibility and view them more comically. I've personally never been accused of being "needy" or "emotional and dramatic" and far more often I am viewed as being too self sufficient and emotionally reserved...even stoic. It's not that I am an emotionless creature...I can assure you that my emotions run very deeply....it's just that I don't make a habit of wearing them on my sleeve.

As to aftercare....I view aftercare in a more "immediate" sense as I don't personally view what takes place days later as falling under the heading of aftercare....although I do realize that many do. For me aftercare is what takes place immediately following a scene, ie. stop bleeding, providing warmth, liquids or foods....that sort of thing. What I require for aftercare is that the top stay in attendance, preferably in close physical contact such as sitting with an arm around me or hands on me until subspace has ended, the shaking has stopped, my eyes roll back out of the back of my head and I have regained my land legs. I say require...but would I die if I don't get that? Well, of course not. If the top I am scening with is also someone that I am in a relationship with, I would desire that he stay in close connection with me for a few hours after the scene....maybe cuddling a bit, a nap or just allowing me to lay my head in his lap....maybe sharing a meal together or just some nice pillow talk.

What I don't like to see....and yes I have witnessed it quite a number of times....are Doms that play with a submissive and once the scene is over they brush them away like they are yesterday's trash....or submissives who walk away from a scene as if they are trying to prove to all how "un-needy" they are and leave the Dominant cold. If they both agree that neither wants any real contact after the scene then there should be no issue.

Subdrop is an entirely different issue for me and I don't categorize any care received during that time as "aftercare", although many people do. There have been references to a lack of understanding of submissives who need care "days" after a scene. Well, I certainly can't speak for all submissives and I am quite sure that my experience is unique to me and not identical to others....but actual subdrop does not begin to appear until the second or third day post scene. It is something that I normally experience after very intense scenes...and have always experienced it to one degree or another after those kinds of scenes for greater than 20 years now....so I don't think it is an issue that is unique to the new or inexperienced. It is an extremely powerful event and while I don't think that I come across as being "needier" during that time...I can tell you that for a good solid 24 hours I feel like absolute crap. I get a fever and chills, body aches, headache, loss of appetite....basically I feel like I have a really bad case of the flu. Emotions....yes....they do factor in and are more difficult to deal with at that time. Can I manage through it on my own?...sure I can. Would it be nice not to have to?....absolutely! Could I will it away??????....oh hell no....no more than I could will away any other physical response....because it IS a physical response.

No, I don't need the Top to be in constant attendance and hold my hand through it....but it certainly is nice to have them ask if I'm doing okay or let me know that they are there if I need them. Is it necessary?....nope....but if they can't at least be thoughtful of the possibility that I might just like to get a call, a smile, a hug or a nod of understanding....then to be real honest I wouldn't have a lot of respect for them as a man, much less as a Dom...and future scenes with them would be unlikely.

Ultimately though, what I need and desire in these situations will not be the same as what what others need or desire. I think that we each have to be flexible enough to take our individuality into consideration.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to goodpet)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 9:04:03 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Mist,

Read goodpet's post above, it is great!

What I mean by "needy" is thus.  What they want isn't so much the scene but an emotional connection and requiring aftercare above and beyond what is needed to deal with the endorphins gets them what they really want, emotional connection with someone.

Now if a white dom tops a black sub and yells "N$$$GR" at her and the play is deeply emotional that is a VASTLY different story but almost ALL the play these people are talking about is fairly pure pain play and or just flogging.  Sorry, but if all we did was some basic pain play, you get to wrap yourself in the little blanket I carry and sit at my feet for a bit till you come back to earth.  If the woman needs more than that, it will be the last time I will play with them till I see some maturity.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 9:34:05 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Michael,
I am sure that you are speaking of situations that I simply have no experience in. Yes, I do know that there are a great deal of folks out there who will dramatize a situation and manipulate it in order to capitalize and get what they want. I assume that is more to what you are speaking of.

I guess what I was trying to say is that the subspace that occurs for me a day or two post scene is, at least in my understanding, a physical event that has it's roots in the endorphin processes that occurred during the scene. For me, it can be and is triggered by the physical intensity of the scene and seems to manifest itself in a level that directly correlates with the intensity level of the scene itself. For example....I will probably not experience any delayed effects from a simple flogging but if we have a three hour scene where I get the skin whipped off of me and I am heavily bruised from stem to stern....I will most likely experience some level of drop. There doesn't have to be an emotionally traumatic catalyst for it to occur. I don't believe that anyone should use it as a means to manipulate an emotional connection or to try coerce someone into unnecessary pampering....but a phone call a day or two after the event that says "Hi...just wanted to call and see how you're doing." shouldn't be too much to hope for. I do realize that is not what you were saying. 

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 9:46:16 AM   
onestandingstill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

As long as it takes.  Both physically and mentally.  Be it a couple days, a week.. however long it takes.  It varies from person to person.  Communication is important for the mental aspects of it..  If you have fully healed physically, and mentally feel rested.. and still are down and out... you might need to seek out medical attention with testing.   You may have an internal infection going on or something else may be wrong..  All depends upon the activities going on.  Just because you look phyiscally healed on the outside does not mean you are on the inside..

I agree totally with WhiplashSmile.
As long as it takes to heal what damage your scene caused.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 9:48:10 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		"

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I brought a munch to a halt the other day when I made the comment that anyone who needs five days of aftercare after an average scene isn't ready to really do BDSM.


IN most cases I would agree,after care depends on the sub and how deep she has been taken and how they have been bought back down..I know  several subs that are in care years later where things went wrong and their doms didn't have the experience to provide the correct care..IF you come up on a situation in your play where something goes wrong for GODS sake take them to er or call 911...bounty


_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 9:57:05 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jadein
Am I assuming to much when I think I'd be looked apon badly because I might not feel better by basically dusting my ass off and immediatly serving whomever it might be?

Depends on how far it goes.  If we do a nice hour long simple flogging scene and you call me up 5 days later sobbing because you need more aftercare- yeah you're going to freak me out and you're going on the "stay away from list."

But again, this is why you need to talk about aftercare BEFORE the play starts- so you know if this person can give you what you need in ALL aspects of the scene.  You're not bad if you need cuddling right after, you just need to know whether the other person can give that and if you're ok with what they say they will give.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to jadein)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: How long is aftercare required? - 3/6/2007 9:57:50 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I brought a munch to a halt the other day when I made the comment that anyone who needs five days of aftercare after an average scene isn't ready to really do BDSM.

I am curious what people like LA think about that.

I think limiting the human body to a time frame is not possible.
Ask Doctors how some patients need no follow up and others need it for months depending on how their body processes.
Some need 5 minutes in your lap some days and a few weeks follow up other days.
I think more than the intensity you dole out is involved in the responsibility you chose to accept.
Are you saying if you had a sub who had abuse in her past come up based on something you triggered she'd be back to show room new floors in less than 5 days every time or just the amout of commitment you're willing to make to play??????

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 40
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