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curiousexplorer -> RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) (5/15/2007 11:24:21 PM)
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Long winded rants and replies, the author is not responsible for time wasted while reading.
"if you ask someone to call you a whore... and they do it... or you can look in the mirror and say "i sure am a whore arn't i!? yes i am!" then you're a whore!"
Really? Then I'm the heavyweight champion of the world, simply because I looked into the mirror and decided I was. The reality is I'm not the heavyweight champion of the world unless I defeat the champion, or in the case of retirement, defeat the other top contender. My personal evaluation is meaningless.
There are plenty of self proclaimed somethings (geniuses, psychics) out there, but them saying it doesn't make it so.
"but believing that you were put on the earth to help people and make them well is what being a doctor is all about. that's a belief - it has nothing to do with terms or language, it's a calling - and people met that calling before there was a legally defined profession. "
Yes, and we have people today who call themselves healers because of what they believe, but they actually have no healing abilities above the average mug on the street, and they are often harmers, through their lack of any actual knowledge or training. Believing you are a doctor, or even believing you were put on earth to help people doesn't mean you are a doctor or that you will be able to help people.
"But goodness alone is never enough. A hard cold wisdom is required, too, for goodness to accomplish good. Goodness without wisdom invariably accomplishes evil." Robert Heinlein
"curiousexplorer - you're talking about language - i'm talking about history and beliefs "
No, I'm not talking about language, I am talking about concepts. Doctor is not a word someone can simply apply to themselves because of their beliefs, it is a concept loaded with not only intent, but actions and accumulation of knowledge. Same as whore or prostitute, no matter what niche is being worked.
"arn't we free to believe what we want? especially if the only ones hurt or offended by our actions and beliefs are those who would choose to be... "
No, we are not free to believe what we want. If I believe I can fly I am imprisoned by gravity and will fall like a stone. If a sociopath believes it is right to kill, they will be imprisoned by society. If someone believes they are a doctor, they are only free while they do not practice their beliefs.
As for who is being hurt or offended, quite often it is those who are dealing with their own beliefs getting hurt or offended when others don't comply to those beliefs.
"These are no different to asking for a gift of any kind. Both are for personal gain and both are asking the s-type to comply, it can even be seen as a test to see a persons commitment - but of course in the male vs. female world - there is often double standards."
It would only be a double standard if both were asking for the same thing and were treated differently. We are not talking about dommes requiring a certain style of clothing, or the absence of underwear, we are talking about cold hard cash. The double standard is you saying clothing requirements for female subs and cash for male subs.
"it is protecting oneself from prosecution as well. Prostitution is an illegal activity and one can be arrested for soliciting sex - pure and simple."
Different countries, different standards. Prostitution is not illegal here.
"Let us not confuse "transaction" (a business deal) with "tribute". "
Many seem to be doing just that. Calling a transaction a tribute to either avoid legal problems or their own judgement of prostitutes.
"(and no, vanilla guys do NOT go up to totally strange women with a list of sexual demands because they know what the response would be. They'll take them on a date, take them to dinner, a movie, a club, whatever. What is the difference?)"
If it's just a getting to know you date, why call it tribute or make it cash? Why not call it a date, grabbing a bite, having a chat, getting to know someone? And while we are on dates, I would much rather show my cooking skills then just flip open the wallet and chuck a few bucks on the counter. I know which one is easier, and which one shows more about commitment and care. For someone who has lot's of money, especially through work, is it cash or time which will show their commitment or devotion?
"If you can get a social institution (governement agency, university, the AMA) to run a training and licensing program for Pro Dom "sex teachers" then you will no longer be a prostitute. Knock yourself out, I don't see it happening. "
Does that mean if prostitutes do the same thing they won't be prostitutes? I would have thought with or without institutional training the job would be the same?
"Hmmmm..... 6 pages of 'your kink isn't my kink, so it must be wrong' bigotry"
Really? How about six pages of the job is what it is, no matter how uncomfortable someone feels with a word?
"Yes, I do cater somewhat to my clients because not all of them want the same thing, but that's why my interests are listed. If I'm interviewing someone who obviously isn't going to give me enough reign to work with, I simply tell them that I'm not the right pro domme for them."
Many prostitutes operate this way as well.
"Part of the problem I see over and over again is that people in our own lifestyle categorize us as sex workers. Does that mean that everyone on this site 'soliciting' for a BDSM relationship is only looking for sex? Most (if not all) will tell you absolutely not. I do not engage in any sexual activities with my clients, so what suddenly makes me different?"
With or without penile penetration of the vagina, you or anyone else would ahve an extremely difficult time seperating bdsm from sexuality. From what I've read, most poeple here will tell you that also. Is everyone on this site soliciting, no, because not everyone is asking for money.
"Well, my clients don't want a long term relationship. They want to be tied up and spanked or (insert your fetish here) and then return to their vanilla lives. "
And that is why people will refer to you as a sex worker or prostitute. If you have a problem with those words, i'm sorry, there is nothing I can do about it.
"I don't see this as any different than a dom requiring a sub to provide a monetary or physical object"
LuckyAlbatross,
If it makes no difference, why not demand certain clothing or behaviour? If both represent compliance equally, why ask for cash? Also unless someone is flat broke, it's a lot easier to just fork over some cash than to dress or act a certain way. I don't see how the same financial relationship as a prostitute could be seen as compliance or obedience?
"If I want to pay a girl $100 to give me a blowjob and we both agree, then please explain to me how this has any effect on anyone? "
It doesn't. But if you can't handle calling what you did participating in prostitution, then that is your problem, not the problem of people who call it as it is.
"Some might think there´s no particular talent or skill set involved. That may be true in some cases. "
There is no minimum standard, that is a big difference. Anyone can become a prostitute, and yes even a niche prostitute as a prodomme, but for professions there are minimum requirements. Same as unskilled and skilled labour. The chef is far above the dishpig.
"I don´t think namecalling bothers either Starbucks or a ProDomme too much, as long as money´s being made. "
Really? So using the term prostitute to descibe prostitution shouldn't bother any prodommes? But this thread shows some who acknowledge the description, some who don't care, and some who are bothered by it.
"If the guy wants to pay $200 to spend 2 hours with a Dominatrix, that is his choice.
Why are so many worried and concerned about what consenting adults want to do with
their money and their life? "
Yes it is their choice to participate in that form of prostitution. And if they can't ahndle that name it is also their choice to call it something else. Their choice, not their rule for all humanity, it only applies to them.
"If you believe that any sort of sexual gratification is "sex", then that puts a lot of other occupations under the umbrella of prostitution. "
Yes, or sex worker for those who have negative connotations about the word prostitute.
"A problem I have with this, is that you generalized. NOT ALL PROS WILL NOT SEE MARRIED MEN!"
I know I generalised. The point was not that it applied to all, or even that the same dommes held both views. The point was there are plenty of people involved in the lifestyle for years who freely acknowledge the sexual aspects of bdsm. It's not physio, it's not a doctors appopintment. It is a form of prostitution.
"Almost half of those claim to HAVE tried it with them, only to have their wives not like it -- thus them seeking out me"
Sounds like blowjobs and anal. More than a few clients have seen a prostitute because their parnter wasn't into something.
"The Law makes a distinction between rape and sexual assault and it is by penetration."
Shitty law. penile penetration of the vagina is simply one form of rape. Penile penetration of the anus is also rape or sexual assault. In reality rape is an act of force through sexual acts. Forcing someone onto their knees to perfrom oral sex is rape. Sexual assault is a more encompassing term so all sexual assaulters are treated as the scumbag racists they are.
"you have to wonder why some men like to put down and use degrogatory terms on women and spend so much time in: she's a whore, she's a prostitute"
Not really. What I have to wonder about is why you view the term prostitute as a derogatory instead of simply as a description?
"I dont know about you but when I think about a prostistute I think of "sex". "
Really? When I think of sex I think of sexual fun with another person. When I think of a prostitute I think of paying money for sexual fun. And if all a prostitute did was allow penile penetration of her vagina, and nothing else, I doubt she'd make much. Dead fish is the phrase which comes to mind. You pay for the play as much as the penetration.
"The continous posts ranting: She's a whore, she's a whore or she's a prostitute, she's a prostitute are complete insults to women and you know it is. "
Only for people who have negative associations to the words prostitute and whore. In fact your attitude seems to be putting down all the women who have no problems calling their trade prostitution?
"each prodomme lists her qualifications. "I trained under Mistress X," "Been in the lifestyle Y years," "Appeared on television in the following countries and shows," and so on. "
And? There is still no minimum standard. Non bdsm prostitutes (some at least) offer similar speils. I'm seeing similarities, not differences.
"Compare that to the phrase, "the fine art and hallowed profession of giving blowjobs in the back seat of a car for $25" and you will understand there is a difference here, and it's not just the price"
Clearly you have very little idea about prostitution. While that service is widely available, it's certainly not the only way. In fact many prostitutes would be pissed off you compared them to street workers. As for price, the most expensive prices my limited experience has seen is from prostitutes, not prodommes. Though I've only seen the average prodomme market, not the equivelent of high priced vanilla prostitutes.
"This thread has gone on for a long time, with two main types of posters. One groups says, "My opinion is <insert ideas here>." The other group says, "These are my qualifications, here are actual facts and data, therefore <insert conclusions here>." I am a scientist, and I think you can tell which type of post I believe should carry more weight. "
Well as a scientist you should be examing all the facts. there have been a few experienced prodommes who have had no problems calling their work what it is, prostitution. From your own standards you would have to give these opinions plenty of weight.
"First off, BDSM is ~not~ about sex."
While that is your opinion, it doesn't seem to be representative. Also it's something i think you would have a very hard time backing up with that annoying thing called evidence, which seperates facts from beliefs.
"Those no shows and the assholes are why Pro-Dommes have attitudes and charge as mucha s they do. "
Oh that makes sense? Someone pisses you off so make someone else pay for it? That's like kids who get hit and then go out and kick the dog.
"they offer two different things. one is sex, the other is sexual. "
So both are sexual services for money, and both are prostitution. bdsm call it prodomme for legal or personal reasons, and vanilla call it "escorts" for the same reasons.
"As for all of my info. When was the last time you sat down to lunch or breakfast with a Pro and dicussed what it is they do and why? Or is all of this conjecture on your part? Cuz I been doin that on and off the entire time of this forum with several different Pros. Anybody else? "
No. I've been working off my past experience with friends who did a variety of sex worker jobs, vanilla sex workers who were private dommes, and the input in this thread. And the concpets involved, inculding sexuality and commerce.
Phew, probably a waste of space and all been said, but there's my $0.22 worth.
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