RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


Dauric -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 6:02:19 AM)

Since the topic of immigrants in the workplace came up.

Not my own experiences, but a tale I hear from a friend of mine (repeatedly...)

My friend is a retired Marine and a certified electrician. He has had to -repeatedly- retireve tools, tools bought on his own dime, from the illegal mexican immigrant workers. In the last two years he's lost some $500 worth of hand and power tools this way. His employer has lost thousands in tools that were borrowed and then broken. They've had to lock up scrap pipe so that it wouldn't end up in another contractor's area.

When we first had this conversation, he had the image of the illegal mexican as a theif, but I don't hold that. When you live in an extremely poor area, the odds are that if there is a power tool (and a generator to power that tool), or even a really decent hand tool in the village, it's probably the only one, or the only one in working order, so the entire village shares that tool. In poor villages there's less emphasis on personal property and more on shared or community property, so it's no big deal if you walk off with someone else's tool since the prevailing attitude in those regions is that it belongs to everyone. This is true around the world be it nomadic steppe herders or african bush village, not just in poverty stricken areas of Mexico.

And this is where my bit earlier in the thread about "You benefit from the success of American Culture, you must leave behind those parts of your culture that do not work here." comes from. Americans do not have "Community Property", when a tool is shared between workers there is a clear knowledge of who it belongs to, usually the company that hires them. Personal property, and the sanctity of personal property, is one of the cultural underpinnings of the success of the United States.

My friend will agree that they work hard, when they understand what it is that they're doing. When he does complain about them, it's almost without exception, directly attributable to differences in Mexican and American cultures.

As always, my own $0.02,

Dauric.




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 7:26:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965

G'morning all:



(Fast Reply)

As to English being the official language of America, please refer to the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006". Most specifically Amendments 4064 & 4073. Both of which passed. The relevant passages are as follows:

From 4064 -
"The Government of the United States shall preserve and enhance the role of English as the national language of the United States of America. Unless otherwise authorized or provided by law, no person has a right, entitlement, or claim to have the Government of the United States or any of its officials or representatives act, communicate, perform or provide services, or provide materials in any language other than English. If exceptions are made, that does not create a legal entitlement to additional services in that language or any language other than English. If any forms are issued by the Federal Government in a language other than English (or such forms are completed in a language other than English), the English language version of the form is the sole authority for all legal purposes."

From 4073 -
"The Government of the United States shall preserve and enhance the role of English as the common and unifying language of America. Nothing herein shall diminish or expand any existing rights under the law of the United States relative to services or materials provided by the Government of the United States in any language other than English. For the purposes of this section, law is defined as including provisions of the United States Code and the United States Constitution, controlling judicial decisions, regulations, and controlling Presidential Executive Orders."

America does have a national language and yes, it is English. If you wish learn another language to make yourself more marketable in the work force, by all means, have at it. Do not however try to cram it down the throats of citizens interested in the unification and solidarity of our nation by keeping a standardized language.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella

That has not passed yet, it might not




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 7:39:04 AM)

quote:

Actually, I know QUITE a few mexicans. There are definitely more of them than white people in my neighborhood. When did I ever imply I feared them?



I only worry about things I fear. If I did not fear them I would not worry about them....

quote:

Quite the opposite, but the mexicans I get close to all speak pretty good english, despite them hanging on the their culture, so I don't see what the problem is with all mexicans who come here learning to speak english.



I have Scottish ancestery. My family holds on to its culture by passing down knowledge of our tartan, and stories surrounding our family. We have bagpipes at family reunions. I never have been shamed for holding on to this culture.

Does it bother you when Euro descended Americans hold on to their culture? Or only Mexican descendents?

And as I stated earlier, you do not have to learn anything in this world, no one can force you to learn anything. No one can force you to be literate, or to have math skills, or to have a high school diploma. I do not know who has attempted to cram Spanish down your throat. There are over 100 languages spoken in my son's school district, I am sure that most students could pick a language out of those 100 and learn it as a second language.

I am all for learning multiple languages being compulsory from kindergarten because children acquire language at a younger age easier. Once they learn the basics of one language, learning subsequent languages becomes easier. Now it makes rational sense that the second most common language that is spoken here would be the language that would be taught in kindergarten ( I am talking basic lessons that take 15 minutes a day). It would make our kids more competitive in this world and more employable. I do not see it happening in this country because we are so isolationist. Rather sad




Bella1965 -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 8:20:17 AM)

G'morning all:


Julia, they have passed.

For 4064 - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP4064:

For 4073 - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP4073:

Almost a year now. If you doubt me, click above. These are links from the Library of Congress. I do my homework very well.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella


*edited to add - replace astericks with loc . gov - without the spaces *




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 8:36:25 AM)

I cannot access the links

I am reading articles dated 2007 and I cannot find anything that shows that an amendment to make English an official language has passed the amendment process, that is not what was done last year...


Here is what snopes says, it will not allow me to copy the text, but the gist of it basically is that the Fed Gov will not be mandated to print documents in other languages besides English.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/englishvote.asp






PrincessEllie -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 8:42:14 AM)

I don't give a flying frack about immigration apart from a few basic requirements...

No green card until you can speak fairly good English and you've gotta pay your taxes.




Dauric -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 8:52:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I cannot access the links

I am reading articles dated 2007 and I cannot find anything that shows that an amendment to make English an official language has passed the amendment process, that is not what was done last year...


Here is what snopes says, it will not allow me to copy the text, but the gist of it basically is that the Fed Gov will not be mandated to print documents in other languages besides English.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/englishvote.asp





They're not amendments, they're statutes. Like tax law. American English is not in the constitution as an official languge, but the laws were intended so that a diplomat, coming to the official territories of the United States (eg: the U.S. and all U.S. Embassies) It's the visiting diplomat that needs to foot the bill for the translator.

$0.02,

Dauric




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 8:57:35 AM)

Exactly, they are statutes, not amendments. What she referenced was a bill to have our fed gov documents made available in only English. There is a movement to change the constitution with an Amendment. It is easy to confuse the two. There has been no amendment to the constitution to have English as an official national language. I can imagine that it has a chance of passing one day due to the sentiments I see and hear in this country... but it is quite a process to change the constitution. This particular amendment has been suggested several times, it has not passed.

Making a statute about fed docs is not the same thing as establishing English as the national official language...




Bella1965 -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 9:19:17 AM)

G'afternoon all:


Julia and Dauric, I have never claimed these were amendments to the Constitution. If you READ carefully, these are adjustments to a BILL passed by a bipartisan vote of 62-36 of the Senate on May 18, 2006 named "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006". Modifications to this bill are called amendments.

Noted in my first reference:

"The Government of the United States shall preserve and enhance the role of English as the national language of the United States of America."

"The Government of the United States shall preserve and enhance the role of English as the common and unifying language of America."

I'm not sure how much clearer I need to make this. Mon Dieu. I did explain in my edit how to reference the Library of Congress links. Simply cut, copy, and paste the link into your browser and then follow directions in the edit.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 9:21:16 AM)

If you will read the snopes article you will see how the language in those bills translates into reality of English as an official language.

Have a nice day




Dauric -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 9:24:23 AM)

The 'Legally Official' status of English may have to be decided in court. There are passages that state that we have a unifiying national language of english, and that the U.S. is under no obligation to ontinue producing official documents in any other language, but then the next amendment to that bill turns around to enforce previous requirements that he first amendment to the bill removes........

And this is why legislation is equated to a sausage factory.

Regardless of the legal status; we do however have a -functionally dominant- language. It's the language of our government, it's the language of our public and higher education systems, it's the dominant language of our media, our streetsigns, fast food menus.......

I'll agree that people should, if not learn another language, at least learn about a substantially different culture in another nation. It's worthwhile to have a populace that can acknoledge the existance of other countries as different and sovreign entities.

However, and the point I still stand by: You come to the U.S. to take advantage of the American Dream, the mere existance of this concept is fundamentaly due to American Culture, you must be willing to accept that you need to adopt portions of American Culture and treat those concepts as your own.

Language is just as important as any other aspect, if not moreso. The foundation of said "American Dream" is that of self improvement. The ability to -constantly- improve yourself and your situation in life, and without fluent engish, you are imited in your ability to do that. A hispanic lawer in the U.S. will speak fluent english. A hispanic theoretical physicist will need to pubish papers in U.S. research publications in English. Archetects, construction foremen, landscape and interior designers, programers, engineers, graphic designers, secretaries,.............

By molycodding illeal immigrants that do not want to learn the dominant language of the U.S. we create a permanent lower class in violation of the very precepts of our nation's foundation. Without learning English, they are sperated from the American Dream that they come here to profit from.

$0.02,

Dauric.




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 10:03:11 AM)

quote:

However, and the point I still stand by: You come to the U.S. to take advantage of the American Dream, the mere existance of this concept is fundamentaly due to American Culture, you must be willing to accept that you need to adopt portions of American Culture and treat those concepts as your own.



You know, I agree, I think I am going to go to a local pow wow




Dauric -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 10:13:00 AM)

*Rolls eyes*

The aboriginal Americans didn't have  the "American Dream" concept, it's not part of their culture.

Is it tragic what was done to their tribes in the name of Manifest Destiny? Yes.

Is that relevant to this discussion? No.

If the Mexicans were coming to invade and forcibly take over the country, and ..shall we say, had a snowballs chance on hell of succeeding, -then- it would be an apt paralell. However any military invasion of the U.S. by Mexico would fall flat against the economic and military power of the U.S. Again, the success of the U.S. that the illegal immigrants want to benefit from, a success that is a direct result of our unique culture.

$0.02,

Dauric.




Arpig -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 10:22:11 AM)

Here in Canada we have 2 official languages (English & French) nationally, 3 provinces also have English & french as official languages, 1 has only french, and 6 only english, we have 2 territories with only english and one with English and Inuktuk (not sure if that is the right spelling). These are all official languages, requiring all laws to be promulgated in both languages. It is a bureaucratic headache of massive proportions, and should be avoided if at all possible.




juliaoceania -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 10:38:03 AM)

quote:

The aboriginal Americans didn't have  the "American Dream" concept, it's not part of their culture.



What is the "American Dream" concept? I am not sure if I have that or not... and last I looked I am an American.

What is American culture while we are at it... I did not get the memo that outlined it because, frankly, it is rather diverse. And BTW, Spanish linguistic tradition has been a part of my state since before we became a state... Personally I think that people should understand what the place names mean where they live, regardless of what languages spawned them...

quote:

Is it tragic what was done to their tribes in the name of Manifest Destiny? Yes.

Is that relevant to this discussion? No.




If you go back I mentioned to merrysbrat that the only culture to decimate and enforce a language on to other Americans was indeed English based culture... meaning the native inhabitants were forced to speak English and reject their native tongues. How is that relevant? There seems to be a fear that some people will be "forced" to speak Spanish, which to me is irrational.

quote:

If the Mexicans were coming to invade and forcibly take over the country, and ..shall we say, had a snowballs chance on hell of succeeding, -then- it would be an apt paralell. However any military invasion of the U.S. by Mexico would fall flat against the economic and military power of the U.S. Again, the success of the U.S. that the illegal immigrants want to benefit from, a success that is a direct result of our unique culture.



"Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond will shoot holes through your American Exceptionalism argument... which is probably believed by you due to your lack of experience with other cultures besides your own and due to lack of historical knowledge about empire building and falling... America's sun is about to set due to energy problems that the oil concerns have distracted our politicians from solving due to greed. If we do not find a viable alternative we are probably finished as not only a military power, but a cultural one too...

What makes America unique is its willingness to adapt to many peoples from many places to be something better than we were before... no matter how many racist people attempted to keep that from happening... like those who hated the Irish when they first came here... or those who hate Jews for example.. and like those who hated the Chinese, and now those who hate people from Latin America.




kittinSol -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 10:50:27 AM)

Ahem... a lot, and I mean A LOT of US citizens can't master English to save their lives. Their grammar is poor; they cannot articulate simple ideas; they have a vocabulary of about 300 words on a good day; ask them what a semi-colon is, and they'll run crying to their doctor that they don't want anybody messin' with their ass.

Please! Do us all a favour and quit pointing the fingers at those that are foreign to you! For crying out loud, you boast about your German forefathers. They were immigrants, and I bet their English wasn't particularly good.

I never cease to be amazed at the level of bigotry and small-mindedness that goes on in these threads. How can a forum such as this show so much xenophobia? It's unbelievable. Sorry if it looks like I am lashing at you in particular, I am not, but I had to reply to somebody, and you were one of the most vocal people on the subject.

*sigh*




Dauric -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 11:09:58 AM)

The American Dream is a very old reference to the fact that people coming here are not restricted by class structures or family ties to their pasts. People came to the new frontier to reinvent themselves, and that it was in America that you could do exactly that. America is still today the new frontier to countries that have histories in the thousands of years.

I am aware of the Guns Germs and Steel, that is the "Technical" side of the success of the United States and includes the times from the colonial period, and remains largely true through the late 1800's / Early/Mid 1900's when the Victorian era and the "Old West" finally gave way to substantial urban populations in most States. "Guns Germs and Steel" covers the U.S. expansion across the continent, but does not cover history much beyond that. It was only after the world wars that the United States actually became a world power and an economic powerhouse, before WWI the U.S. was still considered a provincial outback of civilization, and even up to WWII, the U.S. was considered by much of the rest of the world to be a lesser power to individual nations of europe.

The "Amercan Exceptionalism" argument I make as you put it, is an economic one, that takes hold after the Victorian era, from the World Wars, and specifically World War Two to ... mostly present. This is where he American ideals that the individual's rights, in many but not all cases, trump those of the nation or the comunity. This is the period of the most dyamic advances in technology, where individuals can start a business out of a barn or a grage making something that no-one has ever heard about and turn it in to a billion dollar industry. This is the era where our nation accepted that those of different skin colors actually -have- rights, and those rights are more important than a community's desire to walk over them.

That is the culture that I refer to. That we in the U.S. are free to say as we please, and in large part as long as we don't hurt anyone else we are free to do as we please. We can be inventive, we can challenge our government officials, we have regular exchanges of power that do not require the intervention of out military, or the foration of competing shadow governments.

It is our ability to be inventive that has made the U.S. an economic power. The ability of a single individual to find a new way of doing an old task, engineer that idea in to a reality, and -keep the profits- of doing that work (as opposed to say, old Communism where eveything belonged to the government) that has allowed the U.S. to generate completely new technologies to sell aroud the world.

----

Yes the United States has strength in that it has adapted to the newcomers, and in return they have adapted to the United States, It's that cross-fertilization of new ideas on -both- sides that makes the U.S. strong. Simply bending to the desires of a select group of people who are unwilling to make the effort to assimilate is not and has never made any country strong.

I work with a number of former Mexican nationals, they're great people who are making and effort to speak English, and assimilate in to the United Steates. The ones I have a problem with are the ones that leave their countries of origin, and expect the new country to accomidate them in all ways without them making any effort in return.

$0.02,

Dauric.




minnetar -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 11:47:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965

G'morning all:


Julia, they have passed.

For 4064 - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP4064:

For 4073 - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP4073:

Almost a year now. If you doubt me, click above. These are links from the Library of Congress. I do my homework very well.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella


*edited to add - replace astericks with loc . gov - without the spaces *


Bella thanks for adding your sources.  Can't anyone edit whatever they choose in wikepedia?

minnetar




maybemaybenot -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 1:14:15 PM)

minnetar:

I believe Bella's links were from the Library of Congress.

snip from post # 103:

If you doubt me, click above. These are links from the Library of Congress.

               mbmbn




minnetar -> RE: Should English and Spanish be America's Official languages? (5/15/2007 1:26:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

minnetar:

I believe Bella's links were from the Library of Congress.

snip from post # 103:

If you doubt me, click above. These are links from the Library of Congress.

              mbmbn


i understand that and appreciate the clarification. my comment was someone referencing a link to wikepedia earlier. 

minnetar




Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 [6] 7   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125