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Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 8:04:00 PM   
popeye1250


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Well, it was pretty interesting.
If you are *FOR* the Iraq War McCain is your man!
If you are *FOR* "amnesties" for illegal aliens Guiliani is your man!
Mitt Romney hung in there nicely.
Gilmore was ok.
Duncan Hunter did very well!
Tommy Thompson tripped over his words.
Ron Paul did well but Guiliani capitalised on a mistake he made.
Sam Brownback was surprisingly good.
One of the questioners asked Guiliani about "amnesty" and enforcing immigration laws and he did everything he could to dance around the question and didn't answer the question.
Later, after the debate Guliani said; "Let them come forward (illegal aliens) and be recognised if not deport them."
Hmmm, "if it looks like amnesty, sounds like amnesty and smells like amnesty..."
McCain will keep us in Iraq for another ten years if elected! "Nuff said.
Did anyone else watch the debate?
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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:01:45 PM   
cyberdude611


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Ron Paul is done. He literally stated that the United States is to blame for September 11th. Sorry but that just wont work with Republican voters. He fried himself.

Tommy Thompson I still think is a joke and shouldnt even be up there.

McCain still could not explain his reasons for campaign finance reform or for talking with Ted Kennedy about giving amnesty for illegals. And the polls show consistantly that he is really having trouble gathering any conservative voting base. So I think he is in trouble.

Hunter did quite well, I think a lot of people were impressed.

Romney took some hits but I think he won the debate.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:04:09 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Ron Paul is done. He literally stated that the United States is to blame for September 11th.


Did he really? Big mistake.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:10:20 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Ron Paul is done. He literally stated that the United States is to blame for September 11th.


Did he really? Big mistake.


I dont have the exact quote but he said something to the effect that because the US bombed Iraq for 10 years and lead the call for sanctions that it was the reason America was attacked. Giuliani jumped on him, and Paul refused to back down.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:18:49 PM   
popeye1250


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Paul was wrong there but Bin Laden *did* say that the reason for the attack on 9/11 was that the U.S. had military bases in Saudi-Arabia.
Ron Paul and a lot of people in this country including me don't want the U.S. to be the world policeman.
Some politicians "say" that but we keep being the world policeman.
It's time for that stuff to end.
Guliani is in the wrong party, he's a Democrat.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:22:26 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Paul was wrong there but Bin Laden *did* say that the reason for the attack on 9/11 was that the U.S. had military bases in Saudi-Arabia.


Whatever happened to those bases?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:30:24 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Paul was wrong there but Bin Laden *did* say that the reason for the attack on 9/11 was that the U.S. had military bases in Saudi-Arabia.
Ron Paul and a lot of people in this country including me don't want the U.S. to be the world policeman.
Some politicians "say" that but we keep being the world policeman.
It's time for that stuff to end.
Guliani is in the wrong party, he's a Democrat.



United States had military bases there because Saddam decided to invade Kuwait and the Saudis feared Saddam would soon invade Saudi Arabia. Saddam was part of the Baath party. And that is a political movement in the mid-east that wants to take all arab nations and combine them into one and lead with an iron fist. So there was a legit threat to Saudi Arabia (and our other allies there). And if the Baath paty succeeded, it would be catastrophic to the US economy. That's the reason for Desert Storm. And that's the reason Bin Ladin got pissed. And keep in mind the US was NOT the only nation there either... There was a coalition of western nations.

I do not believe we are the world's police. If we were why didn't we stop the genocide in Rwanda? Why arnt we stopping the genocide in Sudan right now. We are going places that have the potential to be the greatest threat to US interests.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:41:42 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Paul was wrong there but Bin Laden *did* say that the reason for the attack on 9/11 was that the U.S. had military bases in Saudi-Arabia.


Whatever happened to those bases?




The Saudi's have airstrips and bases in accordance with the treaty's they have with the US.
One of the reasons the buy their weapon systems ( like F-14's etc ) from us is that in the event that the US has to deploy there.. we have the spare parts and bombs already in place, which cuts down on mobility time and costs. Plus the systems are proven.


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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:50:44 PM   
farglebargle


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So the US withdrew from the bases, and turned them over to Saudi Arabia ( Why do I have a feeling that KB&R is still handling the operations at a tidy profit? ). Took out all our troops?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 9:56:48 PM   
NakedSavage


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I LOVE Ron Paul  (RUDEy should read up, Dr. Paul is correct) -  I guess Rudy Giuliani was too busy increasing adoptions in 1996 to read of Osama Bin Laden's declaration of war.

The following text is a fatwa, or declaration of war, by Osama bin Laden first published in Al Quds Al Arabi, a London-based newspaper, in August, 1996. The fatwa is entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places."

With all the applause from the audience, I think we should pass this along to our friends and family to enlighten them on exactly why Ron Paul was correct and Rudy Giuliani shouldn't be President.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29

Blowback (intelligence)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Blowback is a term now broadly used in espionage to describe the unintended consequences of covert operations. Blowback typically appears as a surprise, apparently random and without cause, because the public generally is unaware of the secret operations that caused it.

In its strictest terms, blowback was originally informational only and referred to consequences that resulted when an intelligence agency participated in foreign media manipulation, which was then reported by domestic news sources in other countries as accepted facts. In looser terms, it can encompass all operational aspects. In this context, it can thus mean retaliation as the result of actions undertaken by nations. The phrase is believed to have been coined by the CIA, in reference to the shrapnel that often flies back when shooting an automatic firearm.

In the 1980s, blowback became a central focus of the debate over the Reagan Doctrine, which advocated militarily supporting resistance movements opposing Soviet-supported, communist governments. In one case, covert funding of the Contras in Nicaragua would lead to the Iran-Contra Affair, while overt support led to a World Court ruling against the United States in Nicaragua v. United States.

Critics of the Reagan Doctrine argued that blowback was unavoidable, and that, through the doctrine, the United States was inflaming wars in the Third World. Doctrine advocates, principally at the conservative Heritage Foundation, responded that support for anti-communist resistance movements would lead to a "correlation of forces," which would topple communist regimes without significant retaliatory consequence to the United States, while simultaneously altering the global balance of power in the Cold War.


Manchurian blowback
Manchurian blowback is a term coined after the events of 9/11 to refer to blowback that occurs many years after the actions that led to the blowback. In the case of 9/11, the attacks are seen as blowback from the United States alleged support of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan in the 1980s, which led to the rise of Osama bin Laden, and also the 500,000 deaths of Iraqis attributable to UN sanctions against that nation. 2008 Republican Presidential candidate Ron Paul cited this example of blowback in the May 15 Republican Presidential Debate.

The concept takes its name from the 1959 novel The Manchurian Candidate, which features a brainwashed soldier being prompted to take violent action many years after his abduction by hostile forces.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 10:07:27 PM   
cyberdude611


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Well then apparently every attack is a "blowback." Right? Apparently this is like revenge right?

So you can also say Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 is "blowback" from the Waco massacre that took place a few years before? Because Tim McVeigh claims that is what set him off.

This is the problem with that theory....you are giving attention to these maniacs and their causes. I personally don't give a damn what provoked Osama. It doesn't justify the deaths of 3,000 people that had nothing to do with forming Amerian policy.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 10:14:27 PM   
farglebargle


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I think the real issue is Bin-Ladin demanding the withdrawal of US Troops from his country, and Bush pulling out and turning the bases over to the Saudis.

Did Bush "Cut-And-Run" from Saudi Arabia?

Did Bush SURRENDER the War on Terror by removing troops, in accordance with OBL and Al Quaida's demands, from OBL's Homeland of Saudi Arabia?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 10:18:02 PM   
popeye1250


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NakedSavage, well put.
That would be too complicated for Guliani to understand.
Oh, and he said he believes in the Second Amendment only you can't carry a gun in NYC.
And I believe under his administration NYC was a "sanctuary city for illegal aliens but,....now he's "for" enforcing our immigration laws?
Funny, in a poll yesterday in NYC on CNN 2/3 of the people stated that Michael Blementhal would make a better President than Guliani.
There's just too many loose ends with Guliani.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 11:39:43 PM   
DominaSmartass


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What Ron Paul said is basically that you can only be a big bully in the world for so long before people start to dislike you for it. He made a point that our troubles in the middle east date back to the 1950s, though I think many people could trace them farther back. I couldn't believe my eyes when I turned on the tv to a republican debate to hear someone saying what I and my liberal college educated friends have been saying for years now. All the other GOP candidates like to talk in language that anyone can understand, fairy tale terms of "evil forces" that "hate our way of life" and "hate us for our freedom" and "because we're rich" and "because of democracy" without any acknowledgement that what we do, our foreign policy, could have ANY affect on the way the world sees us...no, of course not, it's all just a big cartoon where fat guys with beards and wearing turbans are spawns of evil who hate us and our white-hat wearing Christian cowboy heros. Right... Sorry, but I tend to take a more complicated view of the world (you know, like our actions have consequences?) and it's nice to finally see a republican candidate with the BALLS to not tow the party line.

And as for the US being the world's police, well that's almost true: we are the world's corrupt police. We only go after crimes against humanity when it benefits us.

And you know what the highlight of the night was? Watching the debate on Fox News and then the post-debate special Hannity and Colms where for the first 10 minutes they bashed Paul and how crappy of a job he did, what a mistake he made, etc. and then...wait for it... their little phone text poll comes in and guess who "won" the debate according to viewers? Paul - with 30%. That guy named Mitt got 27% and Guliani had 16%. McCain didn't even register.

I hope Paul sticks around, though he's in the wrong party.

< Message edited by DominaSmartass -- 5/15/2007 11:45:35 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/15/2007 11:53:00 PM   
popeye1250


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Smartass, the more I learn about Ron Paul the more I like him!
And he's pretty smart too! He's an M.D.
And yes, that was funny about Hannity &Combs and the poll.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/16/2007 12:11:02 AM   
DominaSmartass


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Yep, same here. And who are you callin' smartass? ;) I knew he was in the wrong party though. Just found out he has run before but as a Libertarian. I don't care, at this point he's my top choice. I'm not so much a Hillary fan though the idea of a female prez is enticing.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/16/2007 12:26:27 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

What Ron Paul said is basically that you can only be a big bully in the world for so long before people start to dislike you for it. He made a point that our troubles in the middle east date back to the 1950s, though I think many people could trace them farther back. I couldn't believe my eyes when I turned on the tv to a republican debate to hear someone saying what I and my liberal college educated friends have been saying for years now. All the other GOP candidates like to talk in language that anyone can understand, fairy tale terms of "evil forces" that "hate our way of life" and "hate us for our freedom" and "because we're rich" and "because of democracy" without any acknowledgement that what we do, our foreign policy, could have ANY affect on the way the world sees us...no, of course not, it's all just a big cartoon where fat guys with beards and wearing turbans are spawns of evil who hate us and our white-hat wearing Christian cowboy heros. Right... Sorry, but I tend to take a more complicated view of the world (you know, like our actions have consequences?) and it's nice to finally see a republican candidate with the BALLS to not tow the party line.

And as for the US being the world's police, well that's almost true: we are the world's corrupt police. We only go after crimes against humanity when it benefits us.

And you know what the highlight of the night was? Watching the debate on Fox News and then the post-debate special Hannity and Colms where for the first 10 minutes they bashed Paul and how crappy of a job he did, what a mistake he made, etc. and then...wait for it... their little phone text poll comes in and guess who "won" the debate according to viewers? Paul - with 30%. That guy named Mitt got 27% and Guliani had 16%. McCain didn't even register.

I hope Paul sticks around, though he's in the wrong party.


Statistically I can tell you why Ron Paul came in so high on that poll...
You got a total of 10 candidates. One is anti-war. Guess who got all the anti-war votes...Ron Paul. Every other vote got distributed between the other 9 candidates. Not to mention the amount of liberals that most definately put in a vote for Paul because of his anti-war stance.
Text polls are also not scientific by any stretch.
In any case, Paul did not win that debate. And he would be a long-shot even if he ran as a Democrat since he is too conservative on every other issue for the Dems. He also would have no chance at the Jewish vote since he doesn't support helping Israel. Basically....he is one of those unelectable candidates.

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/16/2007 12:28:08 AM   
farglebargle


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I'm a Jew who doesn't support helping Israel.

They have their own Neutron Bombs... They don't need anyone's help.

So much for that hypothesis.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/16/2007 12:33:57 AM   
popeye1250


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Hmmm, an "un-electable candidate!"
I like it!
I think I'll go to his site and make a donation!

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Republican Debate in S. Carolina tonight. - 5/16/2007 12:37:54 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I'm a Jew who doesn't support helping Israel.

They have their own Neutron Bombs... They don't need anyone's help.

So much for that hypothesis.




There are always exceptions but the majority of Jews are not going to vote for someone who doesn't support Israel.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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