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RE: Feminization focus - 5/16/2007 5:13:34 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovetokissnylons

Tigress, if you'd be willing to reply, it would be interesting to know why you've decided that way. What was it that they did consistently (or didn't ?) that turned you off ? Might be a lesson in this for some of us, if only to learn how to better get our own way. Thank you,

I cannot answer for Tigress, but I wil answer for Myself, and perhaps that will give you one perspective.
I am often contact by boys who wish to be feminized or insist that this is the way they want to live their life, even 24/7.
I personaly have nothing against cross dressers, and even teach a class for those who wish to learn, or to participate in a safe environment. But as a relationship, it is not for Me.
Because...
These boys have tied an idea of submission directly into beign dressed as a female, being humiliated as a female, and being (oftentimes) forced into this situation. I do not consider this submission. I consider it a deep seated fetish that is sexually arousing to the boy, and has little or nothign to do with the participating FemDom. Everything revolves around being dressed, being made up, and even beign bejeweled as a female. In addition, it is usuallycionsidered exciting inthe sense that it is demeaning, and I do not care to see femininity being used as a from of humiliation. I love being Feminine, I am proud to be feminine, and I do not like it when boys think that being feminized is a thrill because it is humiliating to their manhood. It is a slap in the face, in My opinion, to the Female Gender.
If I have a 24/7 live-in salve, I would certainly, at times, incorporate some feminzation play at times, when it might amuse Me. But to have to do this, all the time, because this is the only way the boy will submit...well, he is not submitting. It is just a lot of work for Me, because he won't even do it by himself, because it give him personal pleasure. I have to support him, permit him, and assist him in this fetish, on a constant basis. As you said yourself...

quote:

Might be a lesson in this for some of us, if only to learn how to better get our own way.

Bet you didn't even realize you put it that way...yet this is the least submissive thing of all.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to lovetokissnylons)

Post #: 21

RE: Feminization focus - 5/17/2007 9:49:39 AM

lovetokissnylons

Posts: 117
Joined: 10/17/2006
Status: offline

Thank you, GoddessDustyGold. You've given me some good insights. Not least of which is that last sentence ! Though I THINK I meant "getting our own way" in the sense of getting what we wished -- and that is interaction with a Mistress, and THAT comes by providing pleasure for that Mistress, rather than specifically what provides the sub pleasure at that moment -- it is valuable for you to have pointed out that what I said sure sounds like manipulation in order to get my own sweet way. Which is not attractive in a partner, I agree. Point taken, thank you.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 22

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 1:00:33 AM

plaything

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

Thank you, DustyGoldGoddess.

May I enquire further? Does, perhaps, some of that sense of humiliation come from the need to be told to dress and do those things; their excitement comes from being allowed and made to cross the line - because their very "maleness" prevents them? I'd always seen the object of that sort of approach to be about demeaning their masculinity.

Other Lady's have described the same issue; do you see a distinction between feminized and humiliated vs being humiliated by being feminized? If you were to punish a "vanilla" slave by making him do house work while wearing pink panties, say, vs putting a femme liking slave in panties and making him do house work, say?

< Message edited by plaything -- 5/18/2007 1:01:07 AM >

(in reply to lovetokissnylons)

Post #: 23

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 2:47:58 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

If I may, I won't speak for Dusty, or Tigress, but just My own thoughts. I really have no interest in forced femme either, and it seems to be the reason that others mentioned. It comes down to being more about the attire than the submission. In the example given, the so called 'punishment' really isn't one, because that is what he wanted all along. To have a catalyst to his own craving. In My eyes, that isn't submission. That is eagerly waiting for the opportunity to express what he truly wanted all along. At that point, I just happen to be there and it really isn't about Me at all.

I just don't see an appeal in My boys dressing like girls. If I wanted a girl, I would get one. I prefer My boys to be boys. The other way around just doesn't do anything for Me.

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 24

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 3:27:09 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I just don't see an appeal in My boys dressing like girls. If I wanted a girl, I would get one. I prefer My boys to be boys. The other way around just doesn't do anything for Me.

I agree with LadyPact on this statement.

I am attracted to men. I think guys are hot when they look all masculine. I like having a masculine, manly man bow down to me....to me that is submission.

I am not attracted to women. I find some women to be very lovely and I can see how beautiful they are, but it does not in anyway make me sexually aroused. So, a boy dressing as a girl just confuses my brain. It sees 'man', but then it also sees 'woman' and it just turns me off. I cannot dominate someone that I am not attracted to sexually. Not that I'm incapable of it, I just have NO desire to, and if it doesn't please ME, then what's the point?

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(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 25

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 4:00:28 AM

MsSonnetMarwood

Posts: 1898
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: Eastern Shore, Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything
\

May I enquire further? Does, perhaps, some of that sense of humiliation come from the need to be told to dress and do those things; their excitement comes from being allowed and made to cross the line - because their very "maleness" prevents them? I'd always seen the object of that sort of approach to be about demeaning their masculinity.

Other Lady's have described the same issue; do you see a distinction between feminized and humiliated vs being humiliated by being feminized? If you were to punish a "vanilla" slave by making him do house work while wearing pink panties, say, vs putting a femme liking slave in panties and making him do house work, say?

How is it punishment to make him do something to him that he wants done to him? This type of thinking only encourages misbehavior and flaunting of rules, because the "consequences" is a "punishment" that he wants to happen. I think you'll find that gets really old, really fast.

You have to untangle kink from submission. I think there's a big difference between someone who is submissive - who in his heart wants to put her needs and wants first, and wants to please her in an ongoing, day to day basis - and someone that under certain conditions "feels submissive"...for example, when he's in drag, or tied up, or if she's wearing a specific outfit. That "submission" gets tied in with that specific circumstance....so what happens if She doesn't feel like engaging in that circumstance?

It's not a judgement call but rather just a distinction, but an important one, I think.

_____________________________

~Ms. Sonnet Marwood~

Deja Moo: The feeling you've heard this bull somewhere before.

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 26

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 4:05:46 AM

plaything

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

For myself, it is certainly not about demeaning the Feminine but rather the masculine in me. Deep down, the man's sex is key to his masculinity (c.f. "men thinking with their dicks"). I find sex difficult to enjoy when it seems like I am simply meeting my genetic desire and social programming to "lay the pipe", and easier the more absolutely I know what we are doing is satisfying my partner. The "feminization" - or nurturing of a female personality and ways in which to conduct my servitude are a foregoing of my simple mechanical instincts - it makes the act of being that submissive a continual deliberate act with furthering of the distance as reward (bittersweet) and the dressing is an expression of the mutual disregard for the genetic maleness.

To me - and I mean no disrespect - a Lady who wants the male in me may want the male in me, but a Lady who wants me for the "girl" in me - or the girl She decides to put in me - wants me for the submissive in me, and by together "sacrificing" (religious background, it manifests in terminology) my maleness, blesses me with a glimpse of the Feminine. Which very same act also mocks and demeans my maleness with the knowledge that I can never truly attain it - but the continual [futile] struggle to attain it demonstrates my devotion to it and thus to Her.

The humiliation is not in wearing the panties and bra: sliding pink panties up over your member in the morning has a sense of ... discarding it; the bra on the flat, male chest, a question of futility. The lack of some and presence of other features of the panties can be like the feeling you get when you drive someone elses car, the continual reminder you are in someone elses space, and the bra to remind you that you lack what it requires what you aspire to.

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)

Post #: 27

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 4:13:06 AM

asubmissiveheart

Posts: 462
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline

This post shows you can rationalize anything.
We all know how most ladies think, yet you still attempt
to change their thinking.
Go find a Professional Dominatrix and she can make you a girl.

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 28

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 4:35:33 AM

plaything

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

I'm genuinely taken aback; I didn't think it inapropriate for me to further explain my perspective in a thread where I asked if others shared it.

If I was trying to achieve a simulated or false mindset, I would be going to pro-domme - finding one who'd treat me as a girl would be infinitely easier. (edit)But(/edit) to quote Akasha:

"but there are LOTS of people playing casually and having a HELL of a time. What's missing is YOU not getting off on it. Or, you FAKING enjoying it. Sub men can sense/sniff/smell a femdom "faking it" better than they can sense a woman faking orgasm."

< Message edited by plaything -- 5/18/2007 4:49:29 AM >

(in reply to asubmissiveheart)

Post #: 29

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 4:39:32 AM

asubmissiveheart

Posts: 462
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline

Good luck buddy, go for it.

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 30

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 4:46:11 AM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovetokissnylons

Might be a lesson in this for some of us, if only to learn how to better get our own way. Thank you,

Oh you are kidding right? Good luck with that.

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to lovetokissnylons)

Post #: 31

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 5:18:32 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

I'm TS. Despite common misperceptions that I should perhaps, I dont get the whole feminisation or crossdressing thing at all - its just clothes, guys.

What I suspect though is that the attraction of it lies in several factors, which one may discover in isolation or association with one another;
1) Obtaining the woman through the possession of her appearance and/or attire - a fetishistic association
2) Negation of manhood (the all important penis) through adoption of female appearance and/or attire - the humiliation thing
3) A change of identity such that one becomes someone else and may engage in activities which are normally forbidden without the guilt associating to the everyday persona - escapism
3) The capacity, through discarding maleness as taught from a young age, to show those feelings and emotions which are natural to a human being which are off limits to "real men", but which are part and parcel of how women are perceived to be permitted, even encouraged, to be.

From what the OP has revealed, I would fit him in the fourth category of my analysis. What he seems to want, is to show his feelings and emotions of adoration, respect and love for women, but due to his upbringing finds this very difficult to do, having been raised in a setting (and I am guessing a little here) where women are viewed as second class compared to men, and where to be a man means treating women, and the emotions and feelings associated with them, as such.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 32

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 5:22:33 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

I have a very masculine, dominant male sub. Yes he is dominant with everyone but me and that is how I like it. Yet he has always had the desire since his boyhood to wear women's clothing. His sisters used to dress him up when he was little, they were alot older than he is. He enjoyed this activity and how much pleasure it brought to them to see him dressed up as a girl.
I allow him to dress occasionally because I feel this is something that he needs and I feel its harmless. He doesn't focus on being a "slut", he focuses on feeling feminine and pretty. Although sometimes if we are roleplaying I help him dress up as a "slut" for a particular role I have in mind.
We have had many long conversations about his need and I made sure that he knows that dressing up as a woman does not automatically make one a "slut". I've known too many masculine male sluts in my time for womens clothing to make a difference.

He also knows that I control his dressing and so it adds a bit of spice to our D/s dynamic. I know cross dressing is not for everyone and I respect that. I sometimes wonder if because I'm bi that it doesn't bother me as much?

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 33

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 7:14:53 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

But you already seem to have concluded I'm a fraud. *Shrug*

Part of Aakasha's online persona here is to be very accusatory. At one point while being in a debate with realone and myself, she accused us both of being trolls and being the same person. After that, she accused me of being a loner without ever having had any RT experience with a Domme.

Whether or not your story is true or not, all that reasonable people can have about MB posts and posters is suspicion, and via a MB and cyberspace we'll never likely ever come upon a method of inquiry that separates truth from fiction.

The feminization theme comes up regularly here in the Ask a Mistress section, and generally the thread doesn't go too well for the OP. You find out that the majority of Domme's are turned off by feminization. You hear that "forced femme" is a misnomer b/c secretly you want to be feminized. You hear about the virtues of real, manly men. All this as if you hadn't already found that out from your own awkward experiences.

Najackcharmer asked whether or not she felt your orientation was healthy given its origins. To me, that's the least of your problems. The real problem is that society allows for tomgirls, but it doesn't allow too kindly for sissyboys.

As for me, I love tomboys and I'm fully sympathetic and supportive of sissyboys. Goodluck. It takes all your ego and a strong character to follow your calling in such hostile, unfriendly, and usually unrequited atmosphere. Rather than be sensitive about it, I'd suggest just having a very robust sense of humor instead.

Like the mob guys say, "Whatta ya gonna do?"

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/18/2007 7:17:16 AM >

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 34

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 10:35:11 AM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

To me - and I mean no disrespect - a Lady who wants the male in me may want the male in me, but a Lady who wants me for the "girl" in me - or the girl She decides to put in me - wants me for the submissive in me, and by together "sacrificing" (religious background, it manifests in terminology) my maleness, blesses me with a glimpse of the Feminine. Which very same act also mocks and demeans my maleness with the knowledge that I can never truly attain it - but the continual [futile] struggle to attain it demonstrates my devotion to it and thus to Her.

I think you have hit upon the crux of the matter, right here. You seem to differentiate between being a male or being a submissive. For you, and this is a valid situaiton for many boys, you cannot submit unless you demean your maleness and act as a female. Then, for whatever reason, it is alright to submit.
I do want the maleness, and I would be interested in a boy who has achieved that maleness in full. Then I want that maleness to submit to My femaleness.
Cross dressing is fine, and fun, and can spice up a relationship at times, as Lashra said. But if I have to permit, and support, and execute that dressing in order to have the male submit, it is not for Me. It is too much work, and it is all he is about. He cannot submit without it. And I come back to the situation of just being someone who is nice and pretty and attractive to the boy, but the thing that seals the deal is that I will help him achieve his fetish. And it is a fetish. It is not about being submissive. If someone else came along with similar qualities, she could do the same, and I am interchangeable with that other Lady.
I want a strong male kneeling before Me and ready to serve because he adores Me, as a man who adores a woman. If I want a girl, I can get a girl. And if the boy wants to dress, and he can do it on his own, because that is his comfort level, I am all for it. It just means I am being served by a sissy boy instead. But My own mindset about the relationship is going to be different and not nearly as strong. Just something amusing and convenient for Me.
The other Ladies answered quite well. This is something important to think about. I wish you much luck and hope you find what you need. .

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 5/18/2007 10:37:30 AM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 35

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 11:06:39 AM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

But you already seem to have concluded I'm a fraud. *Shrug*

As for me, I love tomboys and I'm fully sympathetic and supportive of sissyboys. Goodluck. It takes all your ego and a strong character to follow your calling in such hostile, unfriendly, and usually unrequited atmosphere. Rather than be sensitive about it, I'd suggest just having a very robust sense of humor instead.

Like the mob guys say, "Whatta ya gonna do?"

cloudboy...My MB nemesis... I am going to agree with you here, with a caveat.

There is a big difference between a tomboy and a sissy boy. A tomboy traditionally evolved as a way to describe a girl who liked to do things (in the olden days) that were activities usually reserved for and considered more natural to boys. She liked to climb trees, help her dad work on the car, mow the yard, go fishing, etc. Clothes designed for comfort and ease of movement were designed for girls (and woman) as a blurring of the lines occurred in society. If you watch a show like Leave it to Beaver, for instance, you would never find June Cleaver in anything but a lovely dress and heels, even as she was cooking dinner or doing the dishes. These days, we wear jeans and tennies. On Father Knows Best, the girls were always in a dress or a skirt, and the boys wore the pants. The gender lines were distinctly defined. One does not need to be in a dress to successfully do the dishes or cook a meal. One does not need to be in hose and heels to make the bed or clean the bathroom. And one does not have to be wearing a pair of pink silky panties and a bra in order to execute a successful foot massage. A sissy boy can be feminine in his walk, talk and gesturing, and he does not have to be in a dress to be a sissy boy. Clothes are designed for practicality and comfort, and there are feminine cuts to most clothes. A womans jeans would not properly fit a man, nor would they look very good on him. A man's pair of jeans does not properly hang on a woman's body. Yes we can wear them if necessary or preferred, but when I see a woman in a pair of men's cut jeans, I am well aware that she is "butch". Or a woman can wear these same men's clothes and look very feminine. Because it is also the way the body is carried that sends the message. I don't care one way or the other, but it is a statement.
The clothes do not, or should not, indicate what jobs can be done and what demeanor should be shown. But the societal upbringing still holds much sway. Most cross dressers cannot submit without the clothes. And this is where the problem lies. I do not need a man who has to wear a skirt to be happy to do the dishes. I have nothing against those who enjoy dressing up. I just want to make clear that if this is necessary, as it is so often, that it is now a fetish...rather than submission to Me as a FemDom.
I am not trying to be hard on the boys who want to do this. I am trying to show the distinction between being submissive and having a fetish to be femininzed and then tying that feminization in with self-permission to be submissive. He is no longer a boy, because he can't submit as a boy. I want a boy who will submit with all his masculinity. Not a boy who states that he cannot be masculine and submit.
Big difference to Me. .

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 36

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 11:17:18 AM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

To me - and I mean no disrespect - a Lady who wants the male in me may want the male in me, but a Lady who wants me for the "girl" in me - or the girl She decides to put in me - wants me for the submissive in me, and by together "sacrificing" (religious background, it manifests in terminology) my maleness, blesses me with a glimpse of the Feminine.

Or perhaps a lady wants all of you, the masculine and feminine. Regardless of the type of play, she may want your submissiveness to come about, and be available to her, regardless of how you are dressed.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 37

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 11:22:28 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

To me - and I mean no disrespect - a Lady who wants the male in me may want the male in me, but a Lady who wants me for the "girl" in me - or the girl She decides to put in me - wants me for the submissive in me, and by together "sacrificing" (religious background, it manifests in terminology) my maleness, blesses me with a glimpse of the Feminine. Which very same act also mocks and demeans my maleness with the knowledge that I can never truly attain it - but the continual [futile] struggle to attain it demonstrates my devotion to it and thus to Her.

I think I'll let My answer stand, as I am not interested in bringing the "girl" out in anyone. As others have said, it doesn't do anything for Me and no matter how logically it's argued, it still won't do anything for Me. I'm sure there will be someone out there who will enjoy the activity with you, but it wouldn't be Me.

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 38

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 11:43:15 AM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

I really enjoy feminization. I love sissy maids. If a male identifies as a female full time, then I think that is part of his personality and will take it a such. If I had a trans for example who was always in fem mode, I would consider that person to just have that as part of their personality. I might even force de-fem as a form of play. Same goes if I had a female sub. But that's what it would be, play. Whether or not that person was submissive (or the right submissive for me) encompasses a lot more than dress. If a male only dresses as a form of play, great. It is something I could enjoy. But for me to have a D/s relationship with that person I would have to be sure that person was submissive to me whether dressed, undressed, traditionally male clothing, traditionally female clothing, having sex, paying bills, watching tv...

you get the idea.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 39

RE: Feminization focus - 5/18/2007 11:48:22 AM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

For myself, it is certainly not about demeaning the Feminine but rather the masculine in me. Deep down, the man's sex is key to his masculinity (c.f. "men thinking with their dicks"). I find sex difficult to enjoy when it seems like I am simply meeting my genetic desire and social programming to "lay the pipe", and easier the more absolutely I know what we are doing is satisfying my partner. The "feminization" - or nurturing of a female personality and ways in which to conduct my servitude are a foregoing of my simple mechanical instincts - it makes the act of being that submissive a continual deliberate act with furthering of the distance as reward (bittersweet) and the dressing is an expression of the mutual disregard for the genetic maleness.

To me - and I mean no disrespect - a Lady who wants the male in me may want the male in me, but a Lady who wants me for the "girl" in me - or the girl She decides to put in me - wants me for the submissive in me, and by together "sacrificing" (religious background, it manifests in terminology) my maleness, blesses me with a glimpse of the Feminine. Which very same act also mocks and demeans my maleness with the knowledge that I can never truly attain it - but the continual [futile] struggle to attain it demonstrates my devotion to it and thus to Her.

The humiliation is not in wearing the panties and bra: sliding pink panties up over your member in the morning has a sense of ... discarding it; the bra on the flat, male chest, a question of futility. The lack of some and presence of other features of the panties can be like the feeling you get when you drive someone elses car, the continual reminder you are in someone elses space, and the bra to remind you that you lack what it requires what you aspire to.

plaything,

I'm quite impressed actually with the thought you've put into this. I have been trying to understand the whole area of forced-fem play and have never been able to even get a glimpse of it's true meaning to the individual male - CD/TS/TV. For 6 months I had ongoing connection with a TS/CD boy, also from the UK. He was truly fascinating to me, and he did make several attempts to articulate the meaning that crossdressing held for him. In retrospect I see that his words were similar to yours in some respects, but I think he lacked the introspection you have demonstrated here. So thank you for your points-of-view into this area of service/play and I hope you will write more.

MNN

(in reply to plaything)

Post #: 40

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