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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 11:01:01 AM   
MstrssPassion


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well you know as well as I do that there are many trans-folk that never really come to terms with this

Renee Richards is a prime example of this

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 11:02:12 AM   
MstrssPassion


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btw.... I took part in thread earlier about the subject of revealing one's trans status

did you have a look at that?



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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 11:10:39 AM   
LadyEllen


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didnt see it MsP!?

Where please?

I'm off for a meeting in a mo but will look later

E

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 11:48:27 AM   
cloudboy


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You're smart to consider CDs and Ts from an outside-in v. inside-out perspective. Without this POV, one would never understand what is going on with a CDs drives and behavior.

Futhermore, without this deeper view, a Mistress would never be able to gauge a CDs real range of submission.

In general, though, women don't give a shit, they just know they don't like it. I don't think people should fight their viceral reactions, for there is a real truth in them, on the other hand sometimes new insights and experiences cause us to change our preferences and proclivities --- cause us to expand and grow beyond our own limits.



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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 11:55:34 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I enjoy forced feminization when it is forced. My issue with crossdressers and "sissies" is that, as a whole, they tend to be the most demanding "me first" group of fetishists out there. The other thing is that many seem to adopt a sassy, bitchy tone/attitude which they think is "cute" and it's just as annoying as female friends that are bitches when they have PMS. It's not "cute."

In my experience, hardcore 'sissies' are the most likely to look for a femdom to play a role to enable their fantasies, not look for a partner to share a mutual affection. The woman takes the secondary role to the fetish.

Akasha



That's because you are engaged in web-site driven, industrial FEMDOM domination. These stubborn, insistant behaviors might change or completely disappear if you had more of a secondary or even tertiary partner focus.

In a pornish, passing ships, or Pro-dom type scene, who can blame men for wanting to get exactly what they want?

A man isn't going to get all that genuinely submissive with someone on the other end of a phone line or internet connection. He's doing the most he can to get the most out of a passing situation or scene.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/21/2007 12:04:23 PM >

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 11:59:43 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

I'm here to be myself to face up to and deal with my issues and to live and function as myself.


That's a great, inspiring way of putting it. You have have a shield to fend off ignorance and rejection while being good to yourself.

You have my thumbs up!!

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/21/2007 12:03:19 PM >

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 12:17:55 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I enjoy forced feminization when it is forced. My issue with crossdressers and "sissies" is that, as a whole, they tend to be the most demanding "me first" group of fetishists out there. The other thing is that many seem to adopt a sassy, bitchy tone/attitude which they think is "cute" and it's just as annoying as female friends that are bitches when they have PMS. It's not "cute."

In my experience, hardcore 'sissies' are the most likely to look for a femdom to play a role to enable their fantasies, not look for a partner to share a mutual affection. The woman takes the secondary role to the fetish.

Akasha



That's because you are engaged in web-site driven, industrial FEMDOM domination. These stubborn, insistant behaviors might change or completely disappear if you had more of a secondary or even tertiary partner focus.

In a pornish, passing ships, or Pro-dom type scene, who can blame men for wanting to get exactly what they want?

A man isn't going to get all that genuinely submissive with someone on the other end of a phone line or internet connection. He's doing the most he can to get the most out of a passing situation or scene.


I'm talking about attempted real life relationships with kinky partners over the years.  What I do on the net or on the phone is a small fraction of my BDSM experience and is dwarfed by my real life activities.  Two areas of BDSM relationships I could not find workable were with "houseboys" and with sissies. 

Akasha


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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 1:50:03 PM   
plaything


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[quote=stella40]There's quite a lot of social pressure on women to look good, wear the right clothes, maintain the right figure,always be in shape and look their best. Many people in society don't take kindly to women who don't fit in with popular or media stereotypes of what women should look like. [/quote]

You know, I think I'd always imagined that was precisely why a Woman might want to feminize a sub, to offload some of that onto him. That subtle distinction between "feminine" and "feminized".

I'd also thought that things like strapon-play, etc, were forms of feminization, but the Lady's describing how the male's eventual acceptance and beyond can detract from that is a lot of food for thought.

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 2:08:52 PM   
plaything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I enjoy forced feminization when it is forced.  My issue with crossdressers and "sissies" is that, as a whole, they tend to be the most demanding "me first" group of fetishists out there.  The other thing is that many seem to adopt a sassy, bitchy tone/attitude which they think is "cute" and it's just as annoying as female friends that are bitches when they have PMS.  It's not "cute."   

In my experience, hardcore 'sissies' are the most likely to look for a femdom to play a role to enable their fantasies, not look for a partner to share a mutual affection.  The woman takes the secondary role to the fetish.

Akasha


In a sense, that's very much an answer to my original question: "Yes, but without all that baggage".

What I'm drawing from the thread in general is that it will be hard to find someone for a long term relationship, but it shouldn't be impossible to find someone to leverage my femme-fantasies to help me better realize my sub side.

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 6:29:56 PM   
MistressNoName


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quote:

ummm, not quite right

The PC crowd came up with the term transgendered so that they could lump everyone who falls under any category outside of genetic-man/genetic-woman... most persons who are now classified as transgendered actually reject the new PC term.



Again, regionalisms abound. As do classifications depending on which circles one travels in. Also, not sure what you mean by "new," as the term has been around for quite some time.

But none of this is the topic at hand. Sorry OP.

MNN

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 6:52:29 PM   
tobeshi


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Lady Ellen, Stella40 and all else who replied....THANK-YOU! I do appreciate all of you taking the time to share your insights and thoughts on the subject.I am pleasantly surprised as to the number of related posts and apologize to anyone if my question or comments somehow distracted from the purpose of this thread, it was not my intention to do so.
I can see where and how some of the undeserved reputation and stereotyping comes from. Just as in any relationship if the dressing fetish or any other (i.e. golf ) hobby takes over and becomes more of a principle than the significant other, the relationship is doomed. If it is based solely and entirely on either party`s I, me or my....forget it. I do not believe that any relationship built only on sexual preferences can survive. I would think that even in lifestyle situations reality would eventually have to set in and the lights would have to be turned on. What I hope is not happening is that all of us (cd/tv/t?) are being condemed and lumped into a catagory where we are all being judged by the actions or behavior of a few. I would strongly disagree....we are all not like those who are being portrayed.
I know that I am male. For me, even if I had the desire to try and become 24/7/365 female I couldn`t do it even with the best tutoring. I was born raised and lived many years in a male world. I would not know how to function in anything different and applaud those of you who can. Male and female are both integral parts of me.The only difference is that I cannot freely express my female side. For me the dressing is only part of the equasion. The total sum is engaging in a relationship with someone who will ocassionally tolerate and maybe even enjoy or encourage it. I agree that if it is just the dressing or sex, go do it somewhere and take care of things yourself, you really don`t need anyone else. There is a right time and a place for everything.
I`m not one of the overweight, balding, macho, middleaged mid life crisis cases. I don`t want to dress up and play little girly,disco diva or sissy. I do not think what I do is disrespectful of women and do not try to characterize or cheapen them in any way shape or form, I couldn`t. I do try to imitate them to the best of my ability.
I am me, the same person whether I am in a dress or suit. I do not ever want to intentionally try and deceive or mislead anyone.

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/21/2007 10:36:51 PM   
stella40


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NOTE - THE QUOTES ARE ALL MESSED UP - MY POSTING IS BELOW.

quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

[quote=stella40]There's quite a lot of social pressure on women to look good, wear the right clothes, maintain the right figure,always be in shape and look their best. Many people in society don't take kindly to women who don't fit in with popular or media stereotypes of what women should look like.


You know, I think I'd always imagined that was precisely why a Woman might want to feminize a sub, to offload some of that onto him. That subtle distinction between "feminine" and "feminized".

I'd also thought that things like strapon-play, etc, were forms of feminization, but the Lady's describing how the male's eventual acceptance and beyond can detract from that is a lot of food for thought.

************ THIS IS WHAT I'M QUOTING ***********

MY RESPONSE

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what is the main reason a Domme wants to meet up with a submissive, or to develop a relationship with them? Is not the primary aim of getting into a D/s relationship the fulfilment of mutual needs?

I am a female, a transsexual female. I am subject to the same social pressures as my naturally born female sisters to look good, stay in shape, wear the right clothing, and so on. However unlike my more fortunate naturally born female sisters I am subject to additional social pressures (from some, not all) to be 'feminine' and 'convincing' just because I have this utero-genetic condition where I have to get my body to match my soul just to be able to function as myself happily and normally.

You can see an example of this additional social pressure when you check out a dating website and look at ads placed by men looking for transsexual female partners. Take a look at the words which come up after the word 'seeks' or 'is looking for'. Quite often you'll see the word 'sexy' and almost invariably you'll come across either the word 'feminine' or 'convincing'.

The Internet is a two-edged sword. It's an excellent medium for the distribution of information, for communication and for finding just about anything you care to imagine. But it's also a prime source for misinformation, for lies, and illusions and an excellent vehicle if someone wants to cheat you or deceive you.

Now the ad on the dating site 'guy seeks transsexual' not always, but has often come from a guy who's come across the transsexual or 'chicks with dicks' porn or DVD sites. He sees this beautiful woman with a dick, he gets horny, and this either fascinates or disturbs him. Being naturally intelligent and curious he wants to check this out, he wants to see if sex with a transsexual is really the same as sex with a woman. He doesn't want a relationship, he doesn't want to get to know the transsexual, he just wants to know if sex with a transsexual is the same as with a woman.

And so too the exact same mechanism comes into play with the feminization and sissification sites. So he goes and checks out the reality. But sadly in most cases the reality doesn't quite match the illusion. So what are you going to do? Cling to the illusion and hold out for what you want? Or are you prepared to reconsider what you're looking for so it matches reality?

Yes I am subject to regular, sometimes daily challenges and difficulties as a result of this social pressure. But you know, I wouldn't want to offload any of it onto anyone else - not even my worst enemy. I've lost almost all my family, most of my friends, the effects of over ten years of artistic work and effort, work, my home, and have been made destitute all through a decision to live as who I really am, to seek treatment and to face up to and deal with my issues openly and honestly. Why would I want to wish this on anyone else? I'd much rather concentrate my efforts on sorting me and my life out the way I want it.

But the fact that I've got these issues doesn't make me much different from anyone else. Other people have far worse issues and problems in their lives. Everyone else is subject to some form of social pressure, it doesn't matter what gender you are, how old you are, or what you look like. It's very easy to find someone who will challenge you for who you really are or point the finger and say 'You should...'

Yes, I went through a stage years ago of wanting to be feminized. I was insecure, lacking in confidence, unhappy with the way I looked, I saw the difficulties of a transition ahead of me and I wanted the easy way out. I found a Domme who took on the job of feminizing me, and I ended up looking like a sissy, despite her efforts and intentions. In the end I abandoned the whole idea. Now I'm not the most convincing or feminine transsexual female, I'm not even that attractive, but it doesn't matter. I'm still transitioning, my looks are temporary and therefore I'm still a work in progress. I decided I'd much rather accept myself for who I am, wear the clothes which I feel good in and feel much more comfortable about myself.

The fact that you're transgendered doesn't automatically qualify you for some beauty contest. There is no beauty pageant, there's just you, your clothes, and how you feel about wearing them. And no matter how hard you try there's always going to be someone more feminine or more convincing than you are.

This is BDSM. And while appearance has its own place and is important the one thing that is guaranteed to get you meeting people is the right attitude.

I'm a moderator in a Polish chatroom for transgendered people - the whole range from panty fetishists to transsexuals preparing for their final surgery. Therefore I have a certain amount of online contact with such people.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many who claim to be into feminization are so blissfully unaware of the actual reality of real feminization. Their conversation will focus on the least important, most trivial aspects of feminization - what clothes to wear, how high heels they are able to wear, what panties they're wearing, what panties they want to be wearing, wanting to be taken anally by a strap on dildo, how to lisp and talk through one's nose and how to properly curtsey.

I've never come across anyone who could tell me what lipstick stays on all day, where they start when they iron a blouse or how to remove a nail polish stain from a denim skirt. Some will tell me they had a 'weekend with Mistress' but the topic of conversation will focus on what they wore rather than what they did and some will be able to do this without even mentioning their Mistress.

Not all women are into feminization. Some simply won't accept it. Period. Arguing and persuading them isn't going to convince them. Then there are other women who tried it but were let down or disappointed and now they won't accept it either.

And then there are others who are still open, they've responded here, and they're more or less saying the same thing (but much better than I can) - 'focus on me and my needs and not on your image', 'discuss it with me, don't demand or expect', and so on (check their postings for more details).

Being feminine and convincing isn't really down to what clothes you wear or how you look, it's more to do with how you relate to others, how you behave and what sort of attitude you have towards yourself and other people.

And real feminization, whether it's acquired, developed or forced always starts somewhere deep inside you.

Is it really that difficult to understand?

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/22/2007 3:05:46 AM   
LadyEllen


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Good post Stella. Sorry to hear you seem to have paid the full price for your change. I lost my job and a life partner, and that was bad enough to nearly end with suicide within a year, so to have lost so much more I cant imagine. What I particularly liked then and now though, is that all life insurance policies got cancelled immediately and now get refused automatically - I take it that the idea is that I'm an HIV risk as I'm out shagging a dozen guys a night, because after all, thats what transsexuals do, isnt it?

My advice would be to stay away from those trans dating sites, for the reasons you mentioned. My goodness - the creepiest, saddest guys in the world, chasing what is as close to a woman as they are ever likely to get. The best thing is, that one is meant to be grateful to have some 45 year old nerd who still lives with him mom, chasing one about..... No thanks. And theyre the better clientele too! The worst are the ones you indicate, on a quest to find out - maybe as a bet with their mates or something, but possibly as a means of identifying someone to beat to a pulp in attempted catharsis for their own sexual psychopathologies.

And the feminisation threads - we get them from time to time here, and invariably from fetishists. My advice to them is to get hold of some hormones as soon as possible, ignore the dangers of liver damage and blood clots and take 8mg a day, preferably with 100mg of androcur on top. Then, get the credit card out and making sure it has a few thousand limit, get the painful business of hair removal underway. Be sure to tell all your friends and family about what youre doing too, and your workplace. About a month later, make an appraisal; your penis is now just a pee spout, your memory of an hour of being shot at with a laser is still fresh, your entire social support is absent and youre broke and about to be evicted. Yes, they piss me off. Nothing at all wrong with having a fetish, but when they come here and indulge their fantasies to "go all the way" I will no longer be nice! As much for their own sakes too - there are far too many out there with the money to make all this happen and far too many medical types willing to make it happen for the money, without any thought about it or need for anything more than a skirt.

E

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/22/2007 3:43:59 AM   
MstrssPassion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

quote:

ummm, not quite right

The PC crowd came up with the term transgendered so that they could lump everyone who falls under any category outside of genetic-man/genetic-woman... most persons who are now classified as transgendered actually reject the new PC term.



Again, regionalisms abound. As do classifications depending on which circles one travels in. Also, not sure what you mean by "new," as the term has been around for quite some time.

But none of this is the topic at hand. Sorry OP.

MNN


check the history of the term

Virginia Prince coined the term in the 70's or 80's (the exact date I am vague on) at it was in the late 80's when it became an umbrella term
in the 90's it became known in the political arena

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 5/22/2007 3:45:11 AM >


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RE: Feminization focus - 5/22/2007 7:57:41 AM   
MistressNoName


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MstrssPassion:

Thanks for the history lesson. I think you and I simply have different definitions, perhaps, of the word "new" and the term I used, "quite some time." But we are talking about the same period of time.

MNN

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/22/2007 8:25:58 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I'm here to be myself to face up to and deal with my issues and to live and function as myself.


That's a great, inspiring way of putting it. You have have a shield to fend off ignorance and rejection while being good to yourself.

You have my thumbs up!!


Please remember that by definition, ignorance is a lack of education.  I happen to be learning a lot through this thread.

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/22/2007 12:24:48 PM   
Wilders


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Well, I don't exactly define myself as a sissy or even an honest-to-god sub, but I do have some experience - and fantasies - on this line. (Not the child abuse line or the psychological scars line, the feminization line. :D )
When I was in my late teens, I was a bit unsure of my sexual orientation. I had some gay friends, went to gay bars and even kissed with boys, but eventually I found that men just don't do it for me, I'm totally heterosexual.
The only thing is, I always preferred masculine girls, and have been somewhat feminine in mannerisms and preferences myself.

With time I also came to peace with being a man and being masculine, but I still like to keep the "girl" part of my personality and sexuality. In the goth community I had a few girlfriends who painted my eyes, forced their tongues into my mouth when kissing, bending me into a kiss like men do to women. I always loved this. To me this has never been a humiliation, more like connecting a positive pole to a negative one. In these relationships I was both man and woman, and so was my girlfriend - and it worked out in the end.
There was no crossdressing or sissification or anything like that involved. Though, with the right girl, I think I'd give it a try.

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/22/2007 3:33:21 PM   
tobeshi


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Ladypact, I hope you are learning more than I am. To me it seems to becoming more confusing...I thought I had a pretty good understanding going in but now I have even more questions.

Stella 40, I can`t even imagine...you are living much more than I could ever handle.I wish you all the strength you need to live up to your convictions. I am sure there is support here for you if you need it. HIGH FIVE

I read some of these posts and my concerns seem selfish and trivial  I thought I had it rough being a straight male crossdresser.

I hope everyone finds what they are seeking.
SHI

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/23/2007 2:51:25 AM   
plaything


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Lesson for me: There are many different uses of the terms, particularly in combinations. Please bear in mind that I opened this thread with questions and certainly do not intend my statements as statements of fact. I've clearly misconstrued myself

This is definitely more about answers for me than planting the flag of my opinion. I've also learned a lot from the Ladies in this thread; not least I'm coming to understand why so often Lady's express an interest in cd/ff but seem very skeptical of any sub with an interest in them.

Would it make more sense for me to say that I am not looking for someone to change my gender but to consider that an element of play and for a submissive role with a gender component that requires an effort rather than my natural state to fulfill? And is there a more succinct way to say that ;)

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RE: Feminization focus - 5/23/2007 12:14:27 PM   
stella40


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quote:

ORIGINAL: plaything

Lesson for me: There are many different uses of the terms, particularly in combinations. Please bear in mind that I opened this thread with questions and certainly do not intend my statements as statements of fact. I've clearly misconstrued myself

This is definitely more about answers for me than planting the flag of my opinion. I've also learned a lot from the Ladies in this thread; not least I'm coming to understand why so often Lady's express an interest in cd/ff but seem very skeptical of any sub with an interest in them.

Would it make more sense for me to say that I am not looking for someone to change my gender but to consider that an element of play and for a submissive role with a gender component that requires an effort rather than my natural state to fulfill? And is there a more succinct way to say that ;)



Hello plaything

It doesn't need any explanation to me - I understand. In my earlier days (when I wasn't really sure I was a TS, when I was listening to other people, and when I just had this vague idea I could be a TV/CD) I went through a similar phase. Well maybe it was a bit different. Sure, in male gender role I could be submissive, just as when I was in female gender role, but in male gender role I didn't feel it the same way as I did in female gender role - too many issues got in the way.

From what I can understand you are happy being male, you enjoy also being in the female gender role, and while you are submissive in either role you prefer to be submissive in the female gender role because it is more challenging to you, and as a result you gain more fulfilment from your submission in female gender than you do in male gender. Is this it?

I think it's been clearly established in previous posts that there are women who either want to try but don't know enough or understand enough about it or they have tried but have either had their fingers burnt or been put off by behaviours already covered in previous threads, for example the mewling, effeminate narcissistic sissy type who wants to play the theatre of one actor and just needs an audience.

Yes you've guessed it, I'm coming back to my favourite analogy of theatre and BDSM. I have experience of both, the first as a vocation, the second as a lifestyle, and both as a passion. I'm using it here to give an explanation from a different angle from what plaything has already said, it might help the wider audience understand this better.

What is a theatre? I guess we all know a theatre as being a venue or a space where actors perform live a script or play for the entertainment of an audience. However when you consider the situation of a rehearsal it changes somewhat. You have the same space but this time with a director (in BDSM you have the Dom), actors (let's say these are submissives) and a script (or a scene). But where is the audience? Just as in a BDSM scene the audience is the participants themselves. During a rehearsal, as with a performance, the roles of everyone taking part are clearly defined, exactly the same way as they are during a BDSM scene.

Okay, I digress slightly here. What is male? What is female? This I guess for anyone reading this posting is a no brainer - our definitions may vary slightly but I'm sure everyone here can define male and female without much thinking. Okay, so now tell me what is being male? What is being female? Is this not simply a role we play acquired from the accumulation of past experiences, habits and socialization?

And it is a role and how we play that role which is central to the whole experience we get from theatre or from a BDSM scene. But what is a role? Is it not an established set of mannerisms, behaviours, body postures, movements and manner of speaking which enable us to project a particular identity from within ourselves to another person or audience?

Isn't this the whole attraction of BDSM? Are we not attracted to the idea that we can leave ourselves and take on a role, and adopt that role with someone else with whom we can express ourselves freely and find deep emotional fulfilment through being able to express ourselves in our role? What is subspace? What is domspace? Is it not a similar experience to that of say Samuel L. Jackson being on stage performing Shakespeare who truly perceives himself to be Hamlet?

But for us to also perceive Samuel L. Jackson as Hamlet there has to be something there which supports the role - a scene, costumes, props. But now let's remove the props, the scene and the costumes - let's now just have the actors. All you have now is Samuel L. Jackson et al performing Hamlet in an empty room? The same experience? Wouldn't you find it more tedious, more difficult to watch such a performance because it is without the props and the costumes and the stage?

It's exactly the same in BDSM. This is why we have the leather corsets, the boots, the floggers, the whips, the rope, the St Andrews Cross. They're not necessary or essential to the scene but they make us feel better because we can get all dressed up and equipped and into role. It makes our role-playing so much more easier. Just imagine though you are trying to do a scene in your role but without the costumes, the equipment and the furniture? Wouldn't it be different? And how would you manage to perform your role without all these things?

I am in the early stages of a production of a new play in London (note shameless plug) I have the cast, I wrote the play myself (plug!) and I'm now working on finding rehearsal space and getting together the props, scene, lighting, costumes and music for the play. I know that in the early stages my actors will be happy to read the text and practise their lines, but if I'm going to expect them to be able to play the roles they develop effectively they're going to need props, lighting, costumes, make up and a scene pretty soon.

I'm the director, so I'm not the one who has to go out on stage and perform the play. But it is my responsibility as a director to ensure that the actors have all the props, costumes, lighting, scene and make up so that when they do go out on stage to perform they feel confident enough not only to give a good performance but to gain their own personal fulfilment and satisfaction from having given a good performance.

And isn't this exactly what plaything is trying to express here? All he wants is to cross the gender barrier as an 'element of play' and to be treated as a female submissive because he finds it more challenging and therefore more fulfilling? Isn't this just like Dusty Hoffmann did in 'Tootsie' or Robin Williams in 'Mrs Doubtfire'? Or even Patrick Swayze (I can't remember the movie title) or even Jack Lemmon in 'Some Like It Hot'? And for exactly the same reasons as Robin Williams would come across a whole lot different if he played Mrs Doubtfire without the dress and make up plaything is asking for the costumes and props so he can be more effective in his role.

This to me is perfectly straightforward.



_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to plaything)
Profile   Post #: 80
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