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RE: no meaning at all - 5/21/2007 6:23:07 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Another example of how a word feels rather than what it actually means, I'm all for maing new words or catagories that fit if the terms don't fit you as an indivdual.
What I and many others have a problem with is that communication becomes more difficult, takes longer and limits itself to the most basic idea unless the lexicon has some reasonably set definitions for most terms.

If slave can mean "anything" anyone wants it to mean then it has in effect become meaningless because it has no definition.
(definative differences that give a word meaning in the mind).

I'm not so arrogant as to think my definition should be THE definition. But if the definition was actually set by anyone, we could move on to discuss more complex ideas about M/s and D/s and their similarities and differences and what makes them tick.

Unless and until the definition is set we will be relgated to the same onld discussions of 1,894,917,931,247,852 different equally valid ideas about what a slave is or is not.

I'm certainly not gonna hold my breath waiting for it to happen though, LOL.






This is what I was trying to say!!

Magik's slave


I do not know why it matters how people define their being, as long as their definition agrees with their SO.

I will give you an example. Someone self labels as "intelligent", how are we going to define "intelligent", it really is a subjective thing. I think it only matters that the people interacting with the person that labeled themselves as "intelligent" agree with that label in the end.. Maybe the person mislabeled themselves as intelligent, and the person they are getting to know is a rocket scientist with multiple doctorates. Perhaps they are not "intelligent" at all at a Mensa gathering. One person's submissive is another person's slave... just like one person's 10 is another person's 5. At least that is the way I am seeing it

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/21/2007 6:25:55 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: no meaning at all - 5/21/2007 7:04:47 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		No my point julia is that you arent going to always be talking to your SO or small group of people you are going to be talking to people who dont even have close to the same definition as you and as far as intelagent goes you arent going to call someone with an IQ of 90 intelagent ,yet no one will really argue that if you have an IQ of 140 that you are most likely intelagent, maybe not the most intelagent by intelagent non the less. There is a scale for that there is no such scale for beeing a sub slave... I had someone tonight tell me how I couldnt possably be a slave becasue of A) B) and C) .... our deffanitions didnt totaly match and she was unwilling to admit that any other way was right but hers and even refered to herself as a true slave saying that I was not a true slave... Made me giggle actualy outloud seeing that, just showed me she really wasnt all that slavely or meture.. at one point I was sighing off to go to sleep(which I didnt wind up doing) and she said "oh I dont need to sleep" so I told her
"your super slave of course you have no need to sleep, but me beeing a mear mortal slave I do have a need to sleep and i will as Master has ordered me"
LOL by then she had really started to get to me with how a perfect slave she was and that if other didnt feel as they felt not only did they not compare with her wonderfull slave status but they could no way be slaves themselvs and I truely dislike people who act like that.. I wasnt ackting that way twords her nor would I ever to anyone els

But I thought this showed the intolerance we have for all the deffinitions out that. LOL maybe we should make a test that puts a persons Domlyness and slavelyness into a number and then you can say Im super slavey I scored a 140 LOL dont mind me the ambian is takeing effect real good now.


Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 5/21/2007 7:10:04 PM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: no meaning at all - 5/21/2007 9:31:25 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I guess my point is that people disagree all the time about how they define things that are subjective, but it gives one a rough idea of what you mean when you label yourself... What does it mean when someone is labeled "beautiful" by many people, but not everyone thinks them beautiful. Same goes with art, who decides what is art?

People are jerks all the time about how others label others.. do you think this is only an issue with the word "slave"? People have differing ideas on what makes someone talented, attractive, and even what "wealthy" means. People disagree all the time over stupid things that really have no meaning except to them.

It has no meaning at all, you are right, no meaning at all to me what other people label themselves or how they label me... seriously... none. I would guess some people think I am not submissive... some people would think me more of a slave than a submissive, some a bottom instead of a sub, and still others would think I am a natural top.. and they would disagree if I talked to them about my self described label. I do not care. It does not matter. It has no meaning at all.....

If someone is going to be obnoxious with how I identify myself and tell me I am not what I think I am because they know better than me.. screw them. They do not matter at all. Why stress the small stuff? Why worry about how people identify or do not identify or how they identify you? People like the person you mentioned above use to irk me, for the last couple of months they have went from irking me to amusing me, and from amusing me to having no meaning at all to me.. but that is just how I feel about it, and I know others will keep on worrying about how other people define themselves for not just information, but as a way of justifying their own label.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: no meaning at all - 5/21/2007 10:16:39 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		What does the word "awesome" mean to you?  Probably means something else to the next person, even if slightly different.  Probably means something far more different to yet others.

Some might argue "awesome" means "great", or "very good".  Others might argue it means "something to be an awe of", or "to be respected".  Such definitions may have similarity.  They may have evolved so far apart as to have lost it.

What "Dom", "sub", "Master", "slave", "top", "bottom", etc. mean may vary from person to person.  I would argue that these words should be defined for use in communication.  I would point out, though, that such words maintain definition; context and speaker are important to consider in referencing the meaning of a particular word or phrase.

I would discourage you from seeing such words as "meaningless" simply because people use their homonym forms in their own tongues in different manners.  To do so is to concede to an inability to use such words in communication.  While one may do this to be free of considering such usages, one would be in error to state that such words could not be used to communicate.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 1:59:12 AM   
jonathon0


Posts: 7
Joined: 3/21/2007
Status: offline 		I have been upbraided several times by doms on this site for declaring a relative interest in both slavery and submission. I've been told that either  state is divisable and you're one or the other.Being told to make your mind up infers that you are weak and confused and god forbid, likely to be a wannabe or at least someone lacking knowledge. This a very old (ancient) argument. Fundamentalism versus Secularism.The fundamentalist upholds the strict and literal interpretation of idealogy. The secularist believes that no subject or state is sacred and is not bound by the rules of any ideology. I think the secularist has the advantage here as the fundamentalist cannot operate outside the box their thinking detains them in. Anyway history suggests that where ever human beings gather this argument will take place, usually to no avail. The added problem of semantics renders the resolution of it almost impossible. Needless to say I am secular in the matter and being somewhat decadent prefer it that way. It's more fun.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 7:06:57 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The thing is, people rarely care about definitions until you start talking about definitions.

Otherwise, we're all pretty OK with the reality that we're not all using the same words in exactly the same way.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to jonathon0)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 7:48:53 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonathon0

I have been upbraided several times by doms on this site for declaring a relative interest in both slavery and submission. I've been told that either  state is divisable and you're one or the other.Being told to make your mind up infers that you are weak and confused and god forbid, likely to be a wannabe or at least someone lacking knowledge. This a very old (ancient) argument. Fundamentalism versus Secularism.The fundamentalist upholds the strict and literal interpretation of idealogy. The secularist believes that no subject or state is sacred and is not bound by the rules of any ideology. I think the secularist has the advantage here as the fundamentalist cannot operate outside the box their thinking detains them in. Anyway history suggests that where ever human beings gather this argument will take place, usually to no avail. The added problem of semantics renders the resolution of it almost impossible. Needless to say I am secular in the matter and being somewhat decadent prefer it that way. It's more fun.

I find truth in this, it also shows how powerful defining a label is, and I find that many people want to control others by labeling them, hence my signature line

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/22/2007 7:49:38 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jonathon0)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 8:24:57 AM   
szobras


Posts: 435
Joined: 9/18/2006
Status: offline 		Same goes with art, who decides what is art?
Hehe, yeah, I gave up on trying to figure that one out a long time ago.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 11:50:03 AM   
jonathon0


Posts: 7
Joined: 3/21/2007
Status: offline 		Same goes with art, who decides what is art?
Hehe, yeah, I gave up on trying to figure that one out a long time ago.

szorbas,
Re:  Art and BDSM
Well, if you make it or gaze at it, you are allowed to decide what it is. All you have to do is give yourself permission
Jonathon

(in reply to szobras)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 11:54:13 AM   
darkinshadows


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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Same goes with art, who decides what is art?
Hehe, yeah, I gave up on trying to figure that one out a long time ago.
 
Me too, szobras...me too 
 
Peace


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to szobras)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 12:03:35 PM   
szobras


Posts: 435
Joined: 9/18/2006
Status: offline 		Yes Jonathan0 , I agree for the most part. I wrote that in a bit of jest, as the question has been a debate of perception to the point of exhaustion, and I have heard it uncountable times in many circles.

< Message edited by szobras -- 5/22/2007 12:04:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 12:53:53 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The thing is, people rarely care about definitions until you start talking about definitions.

Otherwise, we're all pretty OK with the reality that we're not all using the same words in exactly the same way.


but why?? why are so many people okay with pointless communication, meaningless terminology, and endless semantic misunderstandings? call me crazy, but i do understand what Majikslave is talking about...one of the most irritating things to me about online communication in lifestyle groups such as this, is the fact that there is no universally accepted definition for ANYTHING, and that people seem to like it that way. ten people may define "Dominant" in ten drastically different, opposing ways, and the PC-police declare that this is right and as it should be. sorry but that's completely illogical to me. why bother communicating with others at all if words can mean whatever each individual person wants them to mean? how could the two of us carry on a meaningful or even casual conversation about dogs, if you define dogs as "domestic canine" and i define them as "unattractive women who don't shave their underarms"??

no, it does not and should not matter to us how others think of us or our relationships. however the basic definition of terms does and should matter. this does not mean that everyone who identifies by a certain label should be identical and fit in the same neat and tidy little box, but rather that they all fit the base, generally accepted definition for the term.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 12:56:16 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Because it's not pointless.  You and I have had conversations which I would consider meaningful and interesting.  We've exchanged tons of ideas and broadened my perspectives at least.

And yet I know we have very different ways of defining things and disagree on many of those points.

We don't need to agree on that level in order for meaningful discourse to occur on other levels.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 1:11:48 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		It is nothing but personal preference how we choose to utilize as well as understand our language....Example:.."My sub does this"..."My slave does this and that".."Well, my slave does this, that and the other thing!!"...So which one is slavier?

Language evolves if someone several years ago said that so and so was on the "down low" I might assume they were hiding out from a girlfriend or the cops and not sucking dick.

There is no hard and fast rules to our language as it is used in generic conversations....Now when working at NASA or in an E.R. it is of grave importance that we use a language where there is a uniform understanding of all of the terminology.....So having an absolute understanding of individual words and phrases changes dramatically as to the seriousness of the conversation and the topic involved...out here it is of little relevance.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/22/2007 1:13:41 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 2:05:54 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		I still say that as much as we want to give everyone the freedom to use any label they wish it makes communication very hard like DaddysProp said how can you have a conversation with someone when you have two people useing the same word to mean different things... I liked the example she gave, how can you have clear communication when talking about a dog when you are talking about your puppy and they are talking about the unshaven unatractive lady at work!!! Why not just have a conversation in 2 different languages.

What Im saying and i stand by it, when you let everyone have a different deffanition of the same word that word no longer really means anything at  all!!


Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 2:10:00 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		What about the concept of understanding "well enough"?  Exactly how much alikeness must there be in order for us to have "meaningful levels of communication?"  Unless you are talking direct telepathy, I simply don't see how anyone uses all words in exactly the same way and is understood exactly that way by the receiver. 

We all accept levels of "interference" all the time.  The question is, when do the levels of interference become enough to really make a difference in the quality of communication? 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 2:16:09 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I agree with LA...Only cuz she's pretty.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 2:20:31 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline
Greetings
 
I am one who does not bother with the labels that others choose to put on themselves; nor am I concerned with the labels that others choose to put upon me.
 
No one besides Master and I can define who we are; both singularly and as a couple. No one else matters.
 
The same goes with others. I can not define what another is. If they call themselves slave, so be it. They are slave. If they call themselves Bf/Gf, so be it; that is what they are.
 
I have too much to concern myself with in my own life to be worrying about what others call themselves or how they view me.
 
Just my opinion.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 2:49:21 PM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		It is absurd that just because a word has nuances, that suggests it has no base meaning. Words have a base meaning - just look in any dictionary. Sure some words can be used in different senses, and it is typically obvious what sense the writer means in the context of their statement.

This ties into the "understanding well enough" that LA is talking about. We may all have variations on the meaning of a word, but the base meaning has to be uniform enough that we can still communicate even though our exact definitions are not necessarily the same.

There is nothing wrong with exploring the variants of a word, seeing how its meaning can be bent and shaped. Very stimulating. That is the only time I can see where this sort of discussion makes any sense.

What boggles my mind, which I have never seen anywhere but this site, is the idea that any word can have any meaning anyone chooses to give it. When you decide black is white and white is grass, the ability to communicate becomes impossible. I have been on sites, on various topics in history for example, where vigorous debate is common. For anyone to suggest on such a site that the words they use for their argument only have the meaning they choose to give it, they would be laughed off the forum.

It is also of fascination to me that this topic keeps getting rerun ad nauseum. Why this need to insist that words only have the meaning any one person gives it? What is the point of continuing to debate this?????

Namaste, Sir Dominic

p.s. As an aside, taking this concept to the extreme that a word has any meaning one chooses to give it; one outcome in society today is religious terrorism. Because individuals choose to believe for themselves that words in the Bible or the Koran advocate blowing up innocent victims, they become justified. This is the end result of allowing everyone to decide for themselves that the meaning of a word is anything they choose it to be.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: no meaning at all - 5/22/2007 2:55:09 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
p.s. As an aside, taking this concept to the extreme that a word has any meaning one chooses to give it; one outcome in society today is religious terrorism. Because individuals choose to believe for themselves that words in the Bible or the Koran advocate blowing up innocent victims, they become justified. This is the end result of allowing everyone to decide for themselves that the meaning of a word is anything they choose it to be.

Totally not true.  The reason for all THAT is because a bunch of people decide that others are not only WRONG, but must be stopped from their wrongness not only in thought but in action.

If we all just accepted the differences and didn't try to a) make others wrong and b) use their wrongness as an excuse to attack/convert, then it wouldn't be a problem at all.

It's not the openness which is causing those problems here.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 60
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