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RE: hard limits as punishment - 5/31/2007 11:58:06 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare

Hello All.  i have a question that has been rnunning thru my mind, and i'd like some input prior to approaching my Sir about them.  (We are still in the early bonding stages of our relationship, He has said that now is the time for my questions.)

He has told me that my hard limits have no bearing on punishment.  By this, he means that regardless of what my hard limits are, he will not honor them when i am to be punished.

Is this something that is normal or prevalent among Masters?  Should i be concerned about this?  All input, Master or sub, will be greatly appreciated.

m


Hard limits are just that...hard limits.  They are in place to protect the submissive because they do not agree with her mental/emotional/spiritual/moral and/or physical stance on them.  No matter the label we put on ourselves...dominant, slave, submissive, switch...we all have the right to put those in place and expect them to be honored.  That does not mean that they will not be brought out once in awhile and examined...perhaps even "poked" at a bit, but they are to be honored.

In MOO...they are in place always.  Punishment would not supercede that in any relationship I would undertake with a submissive partner and I make it clear to them that I would honor their hard limits, as I expect them to honor mine.   If there are too many hard limits for me, I have the choice to not embark on that relationship or even become involved. 

As others have noted, the ability to ignore hard limits when punishment is "in order" makes it too easy to state that punishment is "in order" just so that those limits can be ignored.  Sorry, that doesn't work for me and I can be pretty conservative in my thinking about D/s.

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Hard limits as punishment - 5/31/2007 1:53:59 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare

He has told me that my hard limits have no bearing on punishment. By this, he means that regardless of what my hard limits are, he will not honor them when i am to be punished.

Is this something that is normal or prevalent among Masters? Should i be concerned about this?


Any Master considering the above notion should consider it again—and a little deeper next time. It is a mistake to assume a "hard limit" is merely that. Let's get out of the ridiculous BDSM parlance which tends to turn everything into a t-shirt and start using phrases of different stripes—like phobia, neurosis or traumatic stress. Spoken that way, the subject is cast in another light entirely.

It pays nothing to be so frivolous with what serves you well. Are we careless with what is valuable to us? Certainly, no. Being so with your creature's deepest fears is unwise on so many levels. It subverts the necessary bond of trust and can physically damage him or her. It can create unpredictable behavior and foster subversion. Much like Pandora's opened box, it can awaken unwanted things. Those who play with another being's deepest fears as if it's just another game are fools.

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Hard limits as punishment - 6/1/2007 6:17:03 AM   
servicewithsmile


Posts: 55
Joined: 2/6/2007
Status: offline 		Amayos,
I ADORE your words.
-R

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/13/2007 8:33:20 PM   
tulipgoose


Posts: 112
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		Any Dominant figure which needs to use a hard limit as a punishment is a WEAK Dominant figure. There are so many other forms of discipline and punishment in which you would consent to and accept with all of your will. ~ It seems you chose the right path of action already, but I thought I'd add: If he feels he needs to use your hard limits in order to teach you anything then he really wouldn't appear to have much control over you anyway. What's next? True full blown stereotypical abuse beyond that in which he is demanding your consent to beyond previous denial of it? Soon you wouldn't need to consent at all to anything, which is what crossing a hard limit shows he is capable of believing and reaching towards.

Tulip

< Message edited by tulipgoose -- 6/13/2007 8:34:37 PM >

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/14/2007 1:43:51 AM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		WOW...didn't think this would still be going on...let me post an update here.....

He finally decided to contact me to tell me that I was still NOT released about a week and a half ago.  Said he missed me and wanted to chat.  Got exactly NOWHERE!!!!  He mocked me for thinking that he would actually use the hard limit against me....but still refused to admit that he abused my trust, and betrayed me by even suggesting such a thing.  He said that he'd have to think about what "to do with me", like I'm some sort of object he can put away and come back to when he's damn good and ready. 

Well, since then, I've deleted ALL accounts he had me start, and deleted the only e-mail account that he would use to contact me with.  At first, I changed the passwords while I was foolishly waiting for him to admit what he'd been responsible for....don't ask me why......still a trace of the hormones thinking, I guess.  I have completely broken off all contact, and will not acknowledge any contact he makes.  The biggest problem I have to deal woth now is how to get rid of all the wine i bought?  Party, anyone????

Thanks for everyone's support and kind words throughout this ordeal.  I was totally taken aback by everyone's concern, and appreciate it totally.

michelle

_____________________________

This is where I should say something witty.....well, "SOMETHING WITTY!"

**********************************************

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...

It's about learning to dance in the rain.



(in reply to tulipgoose)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/14/2007 5:24:18 AM   
RealDom69


Posts: 64
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		It's not a hard "I don't like that" it's a hard  LIMIT  period.  How can you respect someone that doesn't respect you....

:))
Johnny Reble

_____________________________

"Winners make things happen; losers let things happen."

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/17/2007 3:36:37 PM   
FLMaster1958


Posts: 9
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		Why agree to a hard limit, and then accept it as punishment? Then it is not a limit. This is why I try to get an understanding ahead of time, no limts.. I will set them. This is another matter of trust. Set them and then exceed them, and what can you trust then? There may be something the slave hates, but Master can always use it as punishment, or for his own sadistic pleasure. Once a limit is broken, what trust is there?

I have always liked the idea of having a straight female as a slave, and then forcing her to have sex with and even worship another female. But then again, I will not accept this as a limit ahead of time.

I have heard of hard limits and soft limits. But to me, a limit is a limit. If you think of it as a soft limit.. accept it and submit to it.

It is a matter of that core trust. If you get into a relationship and have a hard limit, that later your Owner wants to recind, then he has to talk to you, and truly give you the choice to change it. Then it is no longer a limit. The change can not be coerced. It must be given freely.

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/17/2007 4:20:19 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
General reply to the thread.

A hard limit is a limit which would do unwelcome damage to the one I am with.  I am not going to cross it.  She changes her mind about it at some point, we can discuss it and perhaps cross it together.

A soft limit is a limit which my partner may or may not want pushed, depending on context.  I might cross it.

But what sticks in my mind here is the aspect of "punishment."  I dont want somebody around me who needs to be punished.  I did not wake up this morning with a deep desire to be a school principle or the Penguin from the movie The Blues Brothers.

James Clavell, in Tai-Pan, wrote of a sailor in Asia who grew up before the mast to a cruel bosun who handed out vicious floggings and keel-haulings and other horrible punishments for the slightest sin.  The Tai-Pan endured these, and when he ended up with his own boat, he had one punishment.

Transgress one of the rules of the ship, the punishment was to be put ashore at the nearest port and forgotten by the ship.  According to the book, what he ended up with was a ship peopled by those who would do anything to maintain it on an even keel, as being put ashore meant the person would most likely end up in a hellish nightmare ship.

While I have no issues with those who punish those they are with, those who enjoy being with those who punish, it does not work at all for me.  The one who is mine can either behave, or find somebody willing to put up with their misbehaving.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FLMaster1958)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/17/2007 7:40:08 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare
Is this something that is normal or prevalent among Masters?  Should i be concerned about this?  All input, Master or sub, will be greatly appreciated.


Not any that I know. VERY concerned if I were you, almost alarmingly so.
 
Hard limits are just that, 'hard limits' do NOT cross, go no further, don't touch, leave alone, the black plague.
 
For a Master or Top-type to cross that line and use a hard limt as a punishment, thats insane, not to mention VERY unethical. ALL my red flags went up when I read that, its wrong and unethical on so many levels its rediculas. If I heard that ANY of my hard limits would be used as a punishment, ever, I would be gone. I would warn EVERY bottom-type I knew about that person and the local lifestyle group as well. That person is dangerious.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/18/2007 9:40:58 AM   
DerMeister


Posts: 16
Joined: 6/14/2007
Status: offline 		I'm glad to see that my feelings on the subject are in line with the majority of posts here. As a new Master I have accepted that a Hard Limit is just that. It's where the fun STOPS! There should be no crossing over that line. I feel that it is akin to ignoring the designated safe word and that is just plain wrong.

Perhaps you should both examine your limits and discuss this openly to insure that you are both on the same page. There's no point in inviting trouble...

_____________________________

Don't cry because it's over...



Smile because it happened!

-Dr. Seuss

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/19/2007 8:51:58 AM   
whipingherfeet


Posts: 202
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soultoshare
just obey your master
Hello All.  i have a question that has been rnunning thru my mind, and i'd like some input prior to approaching my Sir about them.  (We are still in the early bonding stages of our relationship, He has said that now is the time for my questions.)

He has told me that my hard limits have no bearing on punishment.  By this, he means that regardless of what my hard limits are, he will not honor them when i am to be punished.

Is this something that is normal or prevalent among Masters?  Should i be concerned about this?  All input, Master or sub, will be greatly appreciated.

m

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/19/2007 9:13:59 AM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		whiping,

Sorry, blind devotion is one thing, blind stupidity is another.  My hard limits are just that....and i am not alone in thinking that my trust was violated in this situation.  "obey your master" may work for you, if it does, great, but for me....not so much!

_____________________________

This is where I should say something witty.....well, "SOMETHING WITTY!"

**********************************************

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...

It's about learning to dance in the rain.



(in reply to whipingherfeet)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/19/2007 9:43:55 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Others have made my point far more eloquantly than I could (well written Amayos.)

There are individuals who are fascinated with rules and breaking them.  It's not so strange that some are dominants, and find their way into the lifestyle.  For such an individual, if 'standing on your head wearing green galoshes' was a hard limit, that would instantly be the hottest, most irresistable activity. 

Hard limits don't mean 'we can't.'  They mean 'if we do this, you risk permanent injury, mentally, emotionally, legally, etc.'  They could also mean 'these are activities I don't consent to.'  Non-consensual activities, obviously, have little or no place in the lifestyle.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to soultoshare)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/19/2007 10:22:51 AM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whipingherfeet
just obey your master


Thats pure ignorance and stupidity, sorry to be blunt. soultoshare has to think about herself and about what that meant; her partner wanted to use those things that she had listed as "OFF LIMITS" as a way to punish her. Sounds like a bit of a sociopath, even if he WAS joking, its a disgusting joke and not funny.
 
I remember one partner told me the same thing that my 'hard limits' went out the windown when it came to punishments. The guy was a nutcase, I never saw him after that an I told my female friends about him.  
 
Blind obediance is dangerious. A slave or bottom-type may be obediant, but everyone draws a line, that breech of trust is horrible.

soultoshare did the right thing in removing this person from her life.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to whipingherfeet)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/21/2007 7:52:41 AM   
sweetstorm


Posts: 227
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		But with what he is suggesting for punishment will only breed resentment on my part. 
 
And resentment breeds a lack of trust and lack of trust.....
 
well.... without trust in Him..... what are you there for?
to serve?
 
BULLSHIT. You aren't submitting if you are serving in resentment OR IN FEAR.

   Nope nope nope.
 
 

_____________________________

You don't need a parachute to skydive.

You need a parachute to skydive twice.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: hard limits as punishment - 6/21/2007 8:11:08 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I am glad to see the degree of sensibility and sanity shown in many of the replies to this thread.

The intentional violation of anyone's hard limit takes your relationship out of the realm of BD/SM and turns it into abuse.

Whether or not the cops get called, whether or not any charges get filed, whoever violates that hard limit blows the relationship.

Without trust one can never reach the levels many of us seek.

Punishment is a game which can not cover up betrayal of trust.

Your partner may have hard limits which seem trivial or absurd to you, but they have a right to have those limits respected.

If you feel you must do something which is a limit of your partner's, find someone else to do it with or honestly and openly negotiate with your partner about your wishes. Unless they knowingly consent to change the limit, you need to respect it.

_____________________________

As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

(in reply to sweetstorm)
Profile   Post #: 96
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