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RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:28:27 PM   
minnetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Jeff,
i do not understand why self preservation would be needed.  The slave should tell her Master of what is going on and then He should protect His property.

minnetar



Self-preservation really refers to two things.  Preserving of 'self' from something like sickness and/or disease, in which case you're right.  'Hey, You, Master, i'm sick.  Make sure you get me the right meds.' (which is also transparency, letting the owner know what the slave is thinking and feeling.

But the other part of self-preservation has to do with protecting the slave FROM the owner in case something goes wrong with the owner such that the slave's well-being is in danger from that person.  Fight or flight.

Not to demean, but do you expect a slave just to take the 'killing' that the owner thinks is the appropriate action?

Jeff


Jeff,
That goes to my thoughts of a slave finding a Master who has a similar value system where the Master wouldn't have her doing something illegal.

minnetar

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:30:23 PM   
DominaSmartass


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charismagirrl

Isn't that from "Slavecraft"...

That's a great rule and then the other great one...like #1B IMO would be OBEY



Hehe, yeah, I like that one too. Honestly, I have not yet read "Slavecraft" (it's sitting on the shelf, boo hoo.) But it could very well be. Didn't mean to steal or anything, it's just that I've heard it verbally from several people.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to charismagirrl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:35:32 PM   
mstrjx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Jeff,
That goes to my thoughts of a slave finding a Master who has a similar value system where the Master wouldn't have her doing something illegal.

minnetar



I don't disagree.  Even so, what has been discussed here so far is simplifying slavery.  The premise is that the slave 'surrenders' themselves to the owner.  The owner takes all responsibilities away from the slave, so that the slave does not concern himself with 'self' to better focus all energies on the owner.

But the one inalienable right that the slave retains is self-preservation.  The slave MUST be able to have an option available to them in case something goes awry.

To address your question, don't slaves pick and choose their owner better than that?  In theory, yes.  That's why what we do in consensual.  The way that I speak of these things, the last conscious choice that a slave makes is who to serve.

But there has to be a safety valve in case something goes wrong.

Self-preservation.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:37:41 PM   
HutchGarahl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

quote:

ORIGINAL: charismagirrl

Isn't that from "Slavecraft"...

That's a great rule and then the other great one...like #1B IMO would be OBEY



Ok...another one of my 1001 stupid questions....What's Slavecraft?


A book.  Guy Baldwin, the author.  Between that book and 'The Compleat Slave', essential reading on the subject (and yes, 'compleat' is the correct spelling).

Jeff


Thanks Jeff. Don't normally like to read, but since joining this site, I have seen numerous books mentioned that I might actually start reading. Not sure where to find any books like this though. I highly doubt the local library would carry such books.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:40:22 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

I have heard this from a couple of different sources and interested in opinion in light of some other threads (limits and such.)

"The number one rule of being my slave is that you protect my property. Because you are my most important property, you above all protect yourself. I will protect you from everything else in the world but you are responsible for protecting yourself from me."

Not my words, but I agree to some extent with them. Thoughts?


Well, I've never actually spent time with a women stupid enough to swalow crap like that, so I can't really say.

But if I ever go to StupidCrazyPretendOnLineWorldForLosers and meet one who does, I'll have to try it out and get back to you folks on this.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:42:45 PM   
minnetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Jeff,
That goes to my thoughts of a slave finding a Master who has a similar value system where the Master wouldn't have her doing something illegal.

minnetar



I don't disagree.  Even so, what has been discussed here so far is simplifying slavery.  The premise is that the slave 'surrenders' themselves to the owner.  The owner takes all responsibilities away from the slave, so that the slave does not concern himself with 'self' to better focus all energies on the owner.

But the one inalienable right that the slave retains is self-preservation.  The slave MUST be able to have an option available to them in case something goes awry.

To address your question, don't slaves pick and choose their owner better than that?  In theory, yes.  That's why what we do in consensual.  The way that I speak of these things, the last conscious choice that a slave makes is who to serve.

But there has to be a safety valve in case something goes wrong.

Self-preservation.

Jeff


Sir if a slave has to be concerned about self preservation shouldn't the slave ask for a release?

minnetar

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:43:33 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Wherever Amazon.com delivers, that's where you can find such books.

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:45:07 PM   
minnetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl

quote:

ORIGINAL: charismagirrl

Isn't that from "Slavecraft"...

That's a great rule and then the other great one...like #1B IMO would be OBEY



Ok...another one of my 1001 stupid questions....What's Slavecraft?


A book.  Guy Baldwin, the author.  Between that book and 'The Compleat Slave', essential reading on the subject (and yes, 'compleat' is the correct spelling).

Jeff


Thanks Jeff. Don't normally like to read, but since joining this site, I have seen numerous books mentioned that I might actually start reading. Not sure where to find any books like this though. I highly doubt the local library would carry such books.


i have always gotten really good deals on books from there and you can even get used editions which are cheaper.

minnetar

(in reply to HutchGarahl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:50:46 PM   
mstrjx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Sir if a slave has to be concerned about self preservation shouldn't the slave ask for a release?

minnetar



It would appear from the specific wording of your question, and your profile, that your viewpoint of Master/slave would be Gorean in nature.  In the Gorean line of thought, begging for release is a mechanism for separation from one's owner.  If I understand correctly, release might or might not be granted.

To the non-Goreans, something similar to begging release is an alternative, but the nature of the books I mentioned before do not cover Gorean relationships.  In this case, being able to leave on one's own is what is meant here.  Making that decision for themself.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:56:48 PM   
minnetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Sir if a slave has to be concerned about self preservation shouldn't the slave ask for a release?

minnetar



It would appear from the specific wording of your question, and your profile, that your viewpoint of Master/slave would be Gorean in nature.  In the Gorean line of thought, begging for release is a mechanism for separation from one's owner.  If I understand correctly, release might or might not be granted.

To the non-Goreans, something similar to begging release is an alternative, but the nature of the books I mentioned before do not cover Gorean relationships.  In this case, being able to leave on one's own is what is meant here.  Making that decision for themself.

Jeff


Jeff,
i am not Gorean or even a slave.  i am a sub. i think i could develop into a slave if the Master who owned me had similar beliefs and values.  i am basing my thoughts on interactions with Doms who have tried to test my limits and also based on my readings.  i hope i have said nothing to offend You.  Just trying to understand Your thoughts better.

minnetar
minnetar

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 10:58:02 PM   
DominaSmartass


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From: This month? Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar
\


Sir if a slave has to be concerned about self preservation shouldn't the slave ask for a release?

minnetar



I suppose there are different views. I do not want a slave who would be unable to stand up to me and say, even if respectfully ;) "No" That may seem crazy and I have no better way to explain it...I mean, I want a slave who never has a reason to say "no" to me but who I know without a doubt could if need be. I am not a perfect person. I make mistakes and I do not want a slave who will just follow orders when those orders could hurt someone, especially himself. I don't believe in all this magic "master knows best" stuff where just because I've taken the dominant role I am all of a sudden a mind reader, a psychic, and have some greater plan that the slave is unaware of but must follow blindly.

Anyone ever read the classic novel "Mr. Benson"? There is this part where the master (Mr. Benson) tells his slave Jamie to just trust him blindly and then proceeds to do some really stupid things that lead his slave to believe he has been betrayed by his master which then leads him into self destruction. Finally they all realize it was a big misunderstanding and Mr. Benson knew what he was doing the whole time and never should have been questioned or doubted. Well that's a nice fantasy, isn't it? But if we're talking about reality, the responsible thing for the slave to do would have been to stand up to his master and demand the truth which would have made things a lot simpler and lead to none of the abuse Jamie brought upon himself due to the impression that his master had abandoned him. If anyone has read this book you'll know what I mean.

I can't explain it better than that, but it boils down to that if we are both responsible adults, which we continuously claim to be in our D/s relationships, then the burden to protect ourselves is never truly absolved.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 11:01:49 PM   
minnetar


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Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline 		Domina,
thank You so much for the response. i guess i am more fearful of being disrespectful and Your response makes total sense because it is based on a person being fallible rather than asking a sub to do something illegal.  Most of the times i have seen this issue discussed it is based on a Master asking a sub to do something totally illegal.

minnetar

< Message edited by minnetar -- 5/25/2007 11:04:02 PM >

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 11:19:41 PM   
mstrjx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Domina,
thank You so much for the response. i guess i am more fearful of being disrespectful and Your response makes total sense because it is based on a person being fallible rather than asking a sub to do something illegal.  Most of the times i have seen this issue discussed it is based on a Master asking a sub to do something totally illegal.

minnetar


I don't think you're being disrespectful at all, to either of us.  You're just trying to learn.  To some, slavery cannot be 'real' or fully realized without devolving into fantasy.  The books that I mentioned give what I feel to be practical insight into the differentiation between submission and slavery, if the parties involved are responsible and take care of each other in the ways they should.

Owners should not become corrupted.  They should not be power-hungry.  They should understand that they are responsible not only for themselves, but the slave as well.  This allows the slave to concentrate on serving.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/25/2007 11:25:25 PM   
JpnsTigerrrlily


Posts: 161
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline 		A lot of people drink and drive, a lot of people speed, tailgate, etc. We're all human, we all make mistakes and I think the line
"you are responsible for protecting yourself from me." is there to kind of cover the "human factor". Where if the dominant is simply being human and starts to or is doing something stupid/potentially dangerous, it's also the sub's responsibility to call them on it/stop whatever is going on etc.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 12:21:10 AM   
minnetar


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Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline 		i don't see slavery as a fantasy whatsoever.  i just see folks try to argue it by saying what if a Master basically is a lunatic.  Well hopefully a slave won't be owned by someone like that and if she is would ask for a release.  i understand what You say Jeff about self preservation but then isn't the dynamic a sub/Master and not a slave/Master?  i thought when a person is a slave then she relinqueshes all rights to her Master.  With that said then it should be about the Master to make sure about her preservation.  i thought a slave's only responsibility was to please her Master now with statements like that to me it is quantifying it into a sub relationship.  It seems both Masters and subs trying to play both sides of the fence.  There have to be some absolutes.

minnetar

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 12:49:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

I have heard this from a couple of different sources and interested in opinion in light of some other threads (limits and such.)

"The number one rule of being my slave is that you protect my property. Because you are my most important property, you above all protect yourself. I will protect you from everything else in the world but you are responsible for protecting yourself from me."

Not my words, but I agree to some extent with them. Thoughts?


I'm one of those slaves whose Master often sees the bigger picture over what I see.  His decisions for me are based on years of learning me at an extremely intimate level.  He often knows what is best for me more than I do, based on his knowledge of me, his wisdom, and his view of what lies ahead.  The day I feel I have to protect myself from him is the day I no longer trust him completely.  It is also the day I cease to be true to who I am, which is a slave whose Master has total authority over me. The last thing in the world I would ever need is protection, or self preservation, from him.

Now, of course if I see him leading us down a path and I see a dangerous hurdle in that path which he may not see, I will inform him of it.  What he does from there is up to him.  I don't view that as protecting myself from him, however.  I think that type of dynamic really wouldn't work for us.

And since my Rule #1 is to obey him, then I do just that, regardless of what I might think the consequences to myself might be.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 2:09:01 AM   
MaamJay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JpnsTigerrrlily

A lot of people drink and drive, a lot of people speed, tailgate, etc. We're all human, we all make mistakes and I think the line "you are responsible for protecting yourself from me." is there to kind of cover the "human factor". Where if the dominant is simply being human and starts to or is doing something stupid/potentially dangerous, it's also the sub's responsibility to call them on it/stop whatever is going on etc.

Just my thoughts on the subject.


I think this evaluation is where I sit on this too, from both sides of the fence since I am both Domme and slave. As a Domme I don't believe I am infallible, I can stuff up and I would want a slave to say "Are You sure Ma'am?" and voice his concerns if he truly felt I was about to put him at undue risk. It would be his self-preservation kicking in and I agree that even as a slave, he retains that right. Similarly as a slave i believe i have the same right to question Master if He made a decision that would threaten my self-preservation. Now the chances of that actually happening seem pretty remote ... Master and i have well-matched values so He's not going to ask me to do anything illegal, neither of U/us drink alcohol so drink-driving isn't an issue etc. But it could be something as simple as Him insisting He drive U/us 4 hours home when i believe He is too tired to do so safely and so am i! It's often easier for someone else to see how fatigued someone is, while the person themself thinks they're in good enough shape, or says "but I've done this drive hundreds of times without a problem". Now i'm not likely to start begging for release over such, but i would be pretty keen to persuade Him to re-think and suggest a motel for the night! And if push came to absolute shove, if i really believed it to be unsafe and He wouldn't listen to me (highly unlikely as He is eminently sensible) ... i would ask to get out of the car! If nothing else, that would shock Him into realising how serious i was about it and would probably lead to His reconsidering the situation. And if He didn't, it would seriously undermine my trust in Him.

That's just a simple everyday example. Another potential scenario would be a Dominant who is sliding into mental illness. Not impossible by any means, but this could seriously impair their judgement. Surely then, a slave's sense of self-preservation is paramount.

So I don't think the original statement implies that the Master isn't serious about protecting His slave. Quite the contrary, it's because He IS serious that He insists the slave protect themselves from the one thing that He cannot protect them from ... impairment of His judgement in a serious situation. Because We never know Our judgement is impaired at the time.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 2:57:14 AM   
CDOM3


Posts: 15
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		I am not trying to be critical but I read and understood this post as being the #1 rule of a slave not of slavery.
For Myself, I change the word protect ro respect. A slave is a vauled and should be the most vauled piece of property for an Owner. While I assume their responsibilities, I have the expectation that as a slave first, they will honor the rights, duties and commitments of being a slave. In other words, respect the position and tradations of slavery and secondly take the actions to fulfill their duty and role to serve and be pleasing to their Owner.
As for any Owner the #1 rule is 'Do no harm.'
If at any time a slave felt she had to protect herself from Me, then, for whatever the reason, I as an Owner would have broken the Contract.
It is a slaves duty and purpose to inform and offer opinions. A slave serves.
In a healthy M/s relationship, the slave respects her position and herself and the Master will do no harm to His property.

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 3:29:48 AM   
swtnsparkling


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quote:

minnetarThe Master is supposed to take care of His property.  Why would He think you should protect yourself when your role is to please Him
  Obviously he cannot be with her 24 hours a day. So the hours he isn't it is her responsibility to make sure she is taking care of herself- that is pleasing him by taking care of his property when he is not there

< Message edited by swtnsparkling -- 5/26/2007 3:40:54 AM >

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 3:59:15 AM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Some people can't take care of themselves until they are taught how to by their significant other.
It is the Dominants job to teach his property how to take care of themselves so that they can be sure that it is happening while they are away.
And to check that they are doing so.

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 40
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