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RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 4:03:02 AM   
swtnsparkling


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quote:

Some people can't take care of themselves until they are taught how to by their significant other.

An adult needs to be Taught how to take care of themselves?
What?

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 4:10:18 AM   
StellaByStarlite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

Some people can't take care of themselves until they are taught how to by their significant other.

An adult needs to be Taught how to take care of themselves?
What?


Sure, some adults do need to be taught. The example that immediately springs to my mind is the housewife who has a sudden life change ( death or divorce of a spouse) and lacks  a few essential survival skills needed in America.. like financing, how to balance checkbooks, or job training. That particular scenario happens more then what people think, too. Vocational/Tech schools are chock full of non tradional students, many of them newly single mothers that need to learn to make it on their own.

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:05:01 AM   
BrutalMasterOne


Posts: 53
Joined: 4/8/2007
Status: offline 		A good rule, BUT it cannot be, I would never accept it as such, be the number ONE rule. In fact aren't the rules of slavery supposed to be something like this:
  1. The Master is always right.
  2. When in doubt see rule #1.

If you think I am serious... well?

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:25:11 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

i don't see slavery as a fantasy whatsoever.  i just see folks try to argue it by saying what if a Master basically is a lunatic.  Well hopefully a slave won't be owned by someone like that and if she is would ask for a release.  i understand what You say Jeff about self preservation but then isn't the dynamic a sub/Master and not a slave/Master?  i thought when a person is a slave then she relinqueshes all rights to her Master.  With that said then it should be about the Master to make sure about her preservation.  i thought a slave's only responsibility was to please her Master now with statements like that to me it is quantifying it into a sub relationship.  It seems both Masters and subs trying to play both sides of the fence.  There have to be some absolutes.

minnetar



I'll give this one last shot.  I can't say everything I've learned has come from books, but I do 'cheat' when there doesn't seem to be anything else reasonable to say.

Long before 'Slavecraft' and 'The Compleat Slave' was 'The John Q Letters', detailing the author's affairs with several submissive and slave women over the years.

The most extreme of them (and I don't recall her name - books being packed and all) was a woman who had a vision of the 'ultimate submission'.  What this was is the understanding that the slave's sole purpose is to serve (so far so good), but once the owner no longer saw value in her, that she would certainly have no value to anyone else (including herself) and that the owner should kill her.

'If you don't want me, then certainly nobody else should have me.'

That is what you describe.  A slave that accepts their fate regardless of outcome.  Others in this thread have started nudging at another interpretation of self-preservation.  What would happen to a slave such as this if something foul befalls the owner?  Having the focal point stripped from the slave whose only purpose in life was to serve that individual, what then?  There has to be a way to integrate back into the world, or to find another owner.  This is where self-preservation would kick in again.

Is this any clearer?

Jeff

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(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:31:41 AM   
BrutalMasterOne


Posts: 53
Joined: 4/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

i don't see slavery as a fantasy whatsoever.  i just see folks try to argue it by saying what if a Master basically is a lunatic.  Well hopefully a slave won't be owned by someone like that and if she is would ask for a release.  i understand what You say Jeff about self preservation but then isn't the dynamic a sub/Master and not a slave/Master?  i thought when a person is a slave then she relinqueshes all rights to her Master.  With that said then it should be about the Master to make sure about her preservation.  i thought a slave's only responsibility was to please her Master now with statements like that to me it is quantifying it into a sub relationship.  It seems both Masters and subs trying to play both sides of the fence.  There have to be some absolutes.

minnetar

 
'The John Q Letters', detailing the author's affairs with several submissive and slave women over the years.

The most extreme of them (and I don't recall her name - books being packed and all) was a woman who had a vision of the 'ultimate submission'.  What this was is the understanding that the slave's sole purpose is to serve (so far so good), but once the owner no longer saw value in her, that she would certainly have no value to anyone else (including herself) and that the owner should kill her.

'If you don't want me, then certainly nobody else should have me.'

That is what you describe.  A slave that accepts their fate regardless of outcome.  Others in this thread have started nudging at another interpretation of self-preservation.  What would happen to a slave such as this if something foul befalls the owner?  Having the focal point stripped from the slave whose only purpose in life was to serve that individual, what then?  There has to be a way to integrate back into the world, or to find another owner.  This is where self-preservation would kick in again.

Is this any clearer?

Jeff
Jeff, as a person who knew JohnQ intimately and the slave whom you talk about I can tell you what happened. they broke up (as too often happens) and she was heartbroken. She and I corresponded for a while and she decided that what she had wanted was "fantasy" and that the reality was far different and so she went back home, went to work, married and turned her back on all of this.
 
In my opinion John was a fool, for he had something wonderful in his hands and ruined it... because his ego got in the way...
 
Bob

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:31:44 AM   
Valyraen


Posts: 746
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Aqua has a standing rule from me, a rule that I've impressed time and time again as pre-empting any and all other instruction that I give her: if she's in a situation that could put her in physical, emotional, or psychological danger, she is required to do what's necessary to get herself out of that situation.

...not really sure what I'm responding to with that little tidbit... I just felt the need to put it up here.

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(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:41:48 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

Owners should not become corrupted.  They should not be power-hungry.  They should understand that they are responsible not only for themselves, but the slave as well.  This allows the slave to concentrate on serving.

Hope this helps.

Jeff


This is very much in line with my own views and I completely agree.

I prefer to view the relationship as "authority that is checked and balanced by the slaves power to leave the relationship"

Its not about complete obedience to my absolute and total power, but rather the authority is a privilege that is maintained by making responsible decisions.

I use more than one slave right when I explain the relationship. Most of these are based off a post Knight of Mists made a long time ago.

1. You have the right to leave the relationship whenever you feal the qualities, traits, and things that compelled you to submit to me in the first place are gone or that I have not fulfilled the things you stated you need from the relationship..
2. You have the right to disobey me in order to protect yourself or if I give an order that is outside the ethics and values that made you choose to submit to me in the beginning..
3. You have the right to all the basic human rights and needs (food, water, shelter, etc) and I cannot deprive you of them.

Rather than just say "Well, I dont have to worry about disobeying him because he wont ask me to do this.", I find this to more realistic with more clarity (and with less jerking of my own chain).

I dont like the phrase "The slave should NEVER disobey", but rather "The slave should NEVER disobey within the established boundaries."

Some might ask me "Well whats the difference between a slave and a submissive?"  Personally, I dont think there is a huge difference between a slave and submissive since a slave is just looking for a partner they can have a level of shared values and trust with so they dont have to disobey. Just because a person doesnt make orders or demands that would make a person disobey doesnt mean that the person wont disobey if the orders or demands were made.

The difference to me is I set the boundaries and establish what I want and expect and none of this is subject to change based on negotation. I sit down and say "These are the boundaries, I expect domestic chores and blowjobs, will change your appearance and clothing how I see fit." You have to conform to what I want or just say "No, thanks". If its too much or you dont want to do it, it doesnt get crossed off the list simply because you establish it as a limit.

Edited : However, as other people have pointed out in the past here, clearly establishing what is expected prior to entering a relationship isnt fullproof since as people grow and change, what they will want and need will grow and change.




< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 5/26/2007 5:47:56 AM >

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(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:50:48 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I suppose you're right that some people can't take care of themselves; however, in my opinion, those are the ones who should NOT be in a D/s relationship.  We should all be adults here.  People who cannot take care of themselves should go to a class on how to take care of themselves, not turn themselves over to another.

(in reply to lateralist1)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 5:52:34 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Stella, I agree with you..some prolly do need to be taught.  But to turn yourself over to another?  That makes no sense to me.  If one needs to be taught, then one needs to learn.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 5/26/2007 5:56:41 AM >

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 6:07:00 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Well, I think theres a difference between someone who isnt very good at cooking or making a budget or ironing clothes or making good fianicial decisions and someone who is codependent.


_____________________________

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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 6:11:59 AM   
adoracat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Stella, I agree with you..some prolly do need to be taught.  But to turn yourself over to another?  That makes no sense to me.  If one needs to be taught, then one needs to learn.


as the submissive one in the relationship....

i DO need to be taken care of.  in the 3 months that i've been with Sir, he's ordered me to change several bits of self-destructive behavior.  some of those have continued since i was 12 years old.  i'm 43 now.  one of those behaviors, i had NO idea i was doing....when i was able to articulate that behavior, he ordered me to stop and i have with a couple of backslides which he has forgiven me for.

its not always as cut and dried as it would look from the outside.  i've brain damage due to illness.  that's going to make me vunerable to certain things,  forgetting, etc.  his patience with me has allowed me to calm down and refocus where i've gotten more and more wound up and upset to the point of making myself ill in the past.

do i expect him to hold my hand every second of every day, and order me to do every little thing lest i err?  no.  i'd like to think i achieved a *little* common sense as i've gone along.  do i look to him for guidance on *some* things?  yes.  and i get that.  and in return, he has my devotion, and love, and service.  i dont hold back, i am Honorable and give to him all of me.  in return, i have the love and attention of someone i know has my best interest in mind, who wishes to see me become the best *me* i can be, who calls me his slave and watches me shiver as those words hit my ear.

kitten, who is far from perfect, but keeps striving.

(in reply to bandit25)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 6:13:57 AM   
BrutalDemon


Posts: 85
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

This sort of 'rule' is just a declaration by the 'master' that he has no intention of protecting his slave. By buying into this scheme, the slave relieves the master of responsibility for anything he might do that she fails to prevent.  


Are you serious?

So you have degrees in medicine, pharmacology and psycology and a fully equipped and up-to-date facility to constantly monitor all aspects of your slaves mental, physical and internal health... either that, or you're psychic and blessed with X-ray vision, because that's the only way you're going to be able to know a problem may be developing before your slave does.

There's a difference between accepting responsibility for the care of someone or something, and unreasonable fantasies.

Even a slave as property, is still a valuable piece of property, and it is the responsibility of EVERYONE with any kind influence over the condition of that property to do their utmost to care and maintain that property in good order.



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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 6:20:49 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps, you are one of the lucky ones...I guess my point is that you are learning.  OK, you turned yourself over to another but you are learning.  Lucky for you, you turned yourself over to an honorable man.  So if you are ever on your own, you will be able to take care of yourself...you won't have to turn yourself over to another, correct?

(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 6:26:09 AM   
adoracat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Perhaps, you are one of the lucky ones...I guess my point is that you are learning.  OK, you turned yourself over to another but you are learning.  Lucky for you, you turned yourself over to an honorable man.  So if you are ever on your own, you will be able to take care of yourself...you won't have to turn yourself over to another, correct?


i am capable to be on my own *now*.  the things i have with Sir enrich me, make my life better.  i'd like to say that i could stand on my own always, but i know it isnt true, due to things beyond my control.

Sir isnt my only support, i am also married (we are poly, he's very well aware, they've actually met) and i dont expect either one of those things to change.  i know they do....but i dont expect them to.

kitten, who knows how much she's lost in the past 2 years alone.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 7:06:08 AM   
salilus


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Joined: 5/18/2007
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quote:

you are responsible for protecting yourself from me.


I don't agree with that part.

I take care of myself, but protecting myself from my owner seems wrong somehow.

Edited to add: After thinking about it for a minute, I'm not sure I agree with this being the '#1 rule' of slavery. It might be the #1 rule in their relationship, but I don't think that it's the first rule in my owner's 'book.'


< Message edited by salilus -- 5/26/2007 7:12:17 AM >

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 7:25:37 AM   
earthycouple


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Joined: 2/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: charismagirrl

Isn't that from "Slavecraft"...

That's a great rule and then the other great one...like #1B IMO would be OBEY



Self-preservation is from 'Slavecraft'.  Yes.  Along with transparency and a couple of others (my book is packed, so I can't get to it).

Jeff


Jeff,
i do not understand why self preservation would be needed.  The slave should tell her Master of what is going on and then He should protect His property.

minnetar



I will spend the rest of my life caring for, loving, and doing everything I can within MY power to ensure that Robert is safe, happy, and fulfilled.  MY power is not infinate.  I am not a god. 

Everyone requires an amount of self preservation.  That's why most humans have inborn radar detectors to some degree ("oh that guy over there gives me the creeps").  We do things like cry when we hurt and laugh when we are tickled.  Those are all self preservation techniques.  Why we build walls or distance ourselves from certain things.

To presume a slave has to drop ALL techniques of self preservation simply can't happen in my opinion.  We have to many innate things that sound our bells and whistles.  To presume a master can preserve EVERY part of a slave ....well as a dominant myself, that's scary.  I don't believe it can be done.  If MY job is to protect and keep Robert safe in all areas, well, I'd have to reteach him everything he already knows.  I'd have to see him as a child and begin a new so I could ensure his abilities in everything he does are up to par for what I believe to be "safe".

(For Most...I know there are cases quite contrary) At what point do we look at these people we love...slaves, subs, bottoms....and say:  yes they are real people, with minds and hearts and intelligence; with thoughts, yearnings, needs, and interests; with goals, aspirations, desires, and abilities; they are capable, thought provoking, useful human beings with something to contribute to the world without a "Master" pupeteering their every move or "rescuing" them from every situation.

Well look at that.....slaves, subs and bottoms...when I read what I just wrote...appear to be PEOPLE.  Who knew?  oh yeah...I do.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 7:31:36 AM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

Some people can't take care of themselves until they are taught how to by their significant other.

An adult needs to be Taught how to take care of themselves?
What?


No kidding swtnsparkling....I sure as heck don't want yet another child to rasie.

Teaching Robert to work within my family is one thing; teaching him how I want things done is one thing...but it would be a cold day before I teach him how to "take care of himself." 

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Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 7:33:03 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Well, I think theres a difference between someone who isnt very good at cooking or making a budget or ironing clothes or making good fianicial decisions and someone who is codependent.



ya'think?

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True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 7:33:04 AM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite

quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

Some people can't take care of themselves until they are taught how to by their significant other.

An adult needs to be Taught how to take care of themselves?
What?


Sure, some adults do need to be taught. The example that immediately springs to my mind is the housewife who has a sudden life change ( death or divorce of a spouse) and lacks  a few essential survival skills needed in America.. like financing, how to balance checkbooks, or job training. That particular scenario happens more then what people think, too. Vocational/Tech schools are chock full of non tradional students, many of them newly single mothers that need to learn to make it on their own.


This example has NOTHING to do with this lifestyle though....we ALL have to get taught things on occassion.

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Number 1 Rule of Slavery - 5/26/2007 7:35:48 AM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Valyraen

Aqua has a standing rule from me, a rule that I've impressed time and time again as pre-empting any and all other instruction that I give her: if she's in a situation that could put her in physical, emotional, or psychological danger, she is required to do what's necessary to get herself out of that situation.

...not really sure what I'm responding to with that little tidbit... I just felt the need to put it up here.


I am willing to bet all of my Gor beliefs (bit of a joke there) that Aqua was doing that long before the two of you met.



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D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to Valyraen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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