Rape and training (Full Version)

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ggonknees -> Rape and training (5/19/2005 12:27:07 PM)

OK, i'm veeeeery new to the scene. i was discovered outside the scene by my Master and have used this forum to learn about this.
Loving training to be a slave - i didn't know how much i had it in me.

i've written this in another post, so forgive me if you've already read this, but i feel it's significant enough to start a new thread on it.
i've come to a stand-still on my training. My Master said at my first training session that he is to rape me. We've been corresponding for about 3 months, met after 1 month, in private the other week.
i raised this as an issue that i wasn't happy about it and that it scared me. He said, i should be scared. Which, naturally scared me even more.

With it in mind that a slave is to accept whatever her Master choses to mete out on His slave's body whether she likes it or not - where on earth does rape fit in this? Especially as part of training. It's a delicate line to tread 'play-rape', but something tells me it ain't play.

In my own working out of the situation, i have asked to terminate the relationship - He's told me to meditate on it. i am. And with the help of you helpful people out there...

Is this something that is acceptable in the context that a slave is to be wants and accept whatever her Master desires (rape included)? Does this mean that i'm well off the mark in wanting to be a slave? Or is it a classic case of being incompatible?

(Yet more questions) has this been something that other slave's in their training has had (He says it is to break me)? i just know i can't accept that...I believe he's more sadistic than i would want my Master to be (everything else i accept and love, punishment included).

What do you guys think (about any of the questions raise)? Opinions soooo gratefully received.

gg



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 12:34:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ggonknees
i raised this as an issue that i wasn't happy about it and that it scared me. He said, i should be scared. Which, naturally scared me even more.

The real question to answer here is- is this a mind fuck? or is this just a guy who's getting off on a kink without really focusing on the consequences?
quote:


With it in mind that a slave is to accept whatever her Master choses to mete out on His slave's body whether she likes it or not - where on earth does rape fit in this? Especially as part of training. It's a delicate line to tread 'play-rape', but something tells me it ain't play.

Generally this is what's known as "non consensual consent" You've agreed to "anything he would choose to do" whether you specifically agreed to any one act.

What bothers me is that you weren't made aware of what exactly "anything" would entail. I would think knowing that you would be expected to be raped would be something you let the other person know. Did you know this would expected? What other things does he expect?
quote:


In my own working out of the situation, i have asked to terminate the relationship - He's told me to meditate on it. i am. And with the help of you helpful people out there...

You seem to be new and thus overwhelmed and thus going to unreasonable extremes here. Whatever happened to reasonably discussing the issue? What does he want? What does this mean to you? Where will you go from here?
quote:


Is this something that is acceptable in the context that a slave is to be wants and accept whatever her Master desires (rape included)? Does this mean that i'm well off the mark in wanting to be a slave? Or is it a classic case of being incompatible?

Many slaves are expected to be of use in any way the Owner deems suitable, including sexually. However, this is why you have that thing called consent- to use it in an informed manner, with someone you know will work with you.

There are slaves who know they would not be fulfilled if they did not love their master. This does not mean they are not slaves, it simply means they know who they are.

quote:


(Yet more questions) has this been something that other slave's in their training has had (He says it is to break me)?

Break you of what? For what purpose? How would raping acheive that goal?

quote:

i just know i can't accept that...I believe he's more sadistic than i would want my Master to be (everything else i accept and love, punishment included).

What do you guys think (about any of the questions raise)? Opinions soooo gratefully received.

gg

I think you're both new, playing out ideal roles rather than really sitting down and looking at what makes a real relationship last long term. Do that first.



FelinePersuasion -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 12:48:27 PM)

No good master would want to break a slave, The spirit of the slave is what makes a person a person. Any one who thinks it's a good idea to break someone is scary and you need to run away from them. Rape play is fine, but to truely want to rape someone isn't. And he seems like he's just out to forcably share his fantasies.

And another red flag is someone saying good when you voice an issue that scares you. Aprehension nervouse ness all that's good but to honestly want to scare someone is dangerous.



ggonknees -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 12:57:40 PM)

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time out to answer the questions, i really appreciate it, esp since it's clear from your other postings here that you have a lot of experience and objectivity on your side.

The real question to answer here is- is this a mind fuck? or is this just a guy who's getting off on a kink without really focusing on the consequences? What bothers me is that you weren't made aware of what exactly "anything" would entail. I would think knowing that you would be expected to be raped would be something you let the other person know. Did you know this would expected? What other things does he expect?
i don't think it's a mind fuck - it's what he wants. He wants his slave to be fucked exactly how he wants. Yes, he made it clear that his slave it to receive him how ever he wants. I'd said that surely if it's consensual it's not rape (i.e. that i want to do this), we discussed what the meaning of rape is, but this original conversation didn't translate in my mind as that (ridiculous as it sounds, and there's no excuse for it whatsoever, apart from general stupidity). It wasn't until he said it to my face in that manner that the enormity of it hit me (thank christ).
The other things he told me to expect, i accepted and was fine with and looked forward to. We were, otherwise, very very much on the same wave length in what our aims were.

Generally this is what's known as "non consensual consent" You've agreed to "anything he would choose to do" whether you specifically agreed to any one act.

i think this is the idea i have around what this is (but didn't have a term for it, or was even sure it 'existed')

You seem to be new and thus overwhelmed and thus going to unreasonable extremes here. Whatever happened to reasonably discussing the issue? What does he want? What does this mean to you? Where will you go from here?
it's seriously upset me that when i raised it as an issue after, he's not discussed it and instead told me to meditate on it. I know it will never be a consensual act...

Break you of what? For what purpose? How would raping acheive that goal?
Of my old self - that's what he says. i understand that encouraging my slave out over my vanilla-self is done through the training, but i agree, i can't see how rape can do that. As you can see, it's flipped me the other way.
I think you're both new, playing out ideal roles rather than really sitting down and looking at what makes a real relationship last long term.

The thing is, he's not new to the scene, which makes the whole situation weirder.

Anyway, thanks so much for your feedback it's helped a lot - and your questions have certainly hit home that i've gone too quickly and that i've not been the switched on person i am in my vanilla life.

gg



ggonknees -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 12:59:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion

No good master would want to break a slave, The spirit of the slave is what makes a person a person. Any one who thinks it's a good idea to break someone is scary and you need to run away from them. Rape play is fine, but to truely want to rape someone isn't. And he seems like he's just out to forcably share his fantasies.

And another red flag is someone saying good when you voice an issue that scares you. Aprehension nervouse ness all that's good but to honestly want to scare someone is dangerous.


That's what i thought. i'd wondered if i'd got the whole concept wrong.
Yes, i agree to say 'good' at being scared of something isn't a good thing.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.
gg



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 1:07:35 PM)

Yes and no to being scared. Maybe this is what you needed to REALLY make you stop and realize what you were getting into? Some people in Ms and bdsm are into things that would REALLY scare other people. Sometimes it's only when you get scared of something that you start to respect it, and really see it for what it is.

However, being scared is NOT what works at forming relationships long term. Unfortunately we only have you side to go on here, this guy could be fairly reasonable and just at a very different level than you are OR he could be a clueless dork.



darksparkle -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 1:22:02 PM)

Remember, not every dominant is for every submissive, nor is every submissive for every dominant. Compatibility matters....

ggonknees your thinking is not flawed. You were uncomfortable with his line of thinking, spoke your concerns & discovered, (at the very least), his ways are not compatible with yours... This does not make you wrong or bad. It does say that you are intelligent enough to listen to your gut feelings.

Rape training.... What a crock!

It really pisses me off to no end when people pull out the "non consensual consent" card to justify detrimental behavior!!!!!!!

Lets be realistic..... No one has a right to inflict upon others any behavior, physical or emotional that is detrimental to the well being of said person.

And yet it seems some people still think that when one chooses to submit to another in a D/s context they have to accept detrimental behavior as part of their servitude. Bullshit!

Please do not fall victim to that rational....



kisshou -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 2:00:14 PM)

There is a Dominant that I personally know very well. At one time he was in a relationship with a submissive. He was into rape-play and the submissive also expressed a desire and gave not only her consent but encouragement to participate in this play with him. They never set a date for this scene. They had discussed fantasies but never details of how a scene would play out.

Since they were in a relationship he had access and intimately knew her home. She got home from work one evening as usual. He was hiding in her home, he snuck up behind her and threw a pillowcase over her head. He did not utter a word or make a sound, she had no idea it was him. He bound her and dragged her up a staircase bumping her along the way. She fought like a tiger kicking and screaming. He then proceeded to have forced intercourse with her. When it was over he let her see it was him.

My purpose in relating this to you was not to judge that dominants actions but to show you why people say communication is so important. If the thought of this happening to you scares you , or you think it would damage you then you better have a sit down real quick with the Dominant you are involved in.

If you are too shy or unwilling to discuss this with him face to face, then send him an email, or write it out on paper and give it to him.



junecleaver -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 6:49:49 PM)

You can't rape the willing. ;)



Raphael -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 7:15:50 PM)

It looks like the majority of the advice you've gotten here is that you should run away.

I'm not sure that's wrong. But I'm not sure that's right. Unlike most of the other posters, I don't see enough in what you've written to be sure. I do see some signs both ways.

quote:

No good master would want to break a slave, The spirit of the slave is what makes a person a person.


Yes and no. Depends on what exactly he meant by break.

quote:


And another red flag is someone saying good when you voice an issue that scares you. Aprehension nervouse ness all that's good but to honestly want to scare someone is dangerous.


I disagree with this. It might well be that what he means when he says 'good' is simply that the fact she's scared shows she's taking it seriously. That she's finally got it through her skull that this is NOT A GAME.

Now I don't know the guy, and I don't know for sure what the deal is here - I'm just saying that you can't dismiss it this easily.

quote:

He wants his slave to be fucked exactly how he wants.


Did you expect he would not?

quote:

Of my old self - that's what he says. i understand that encouraging my slave out over my vanilla-self is done through the training, but i agree, i can't see how rape can do that. As you can see, it's flipped me the other way.


I can see that. You've lived your entire life, I'm assuming, in a reality where YOU get to decide who gets to use your body, when, how, on what terms. You are, presumably, seeking to enter a relationship where that's no longer true. A rape-scene might be one way of impressing deeply into your consciousness that change.

I'm not saying it's the only way to do that, I'm not saying it's the best way to do that, and in particular I'm not saying that it's really the best way to do it in your case. You obviously are thinking it's not, and you know the situation better than I do - and better than any other poster here does.

But, at the same time, I can't help but think that there must be good reasons you've gone this far with him, and that he is also in a better position than any poster here to know what the deal is. He may have good reason to judge that this is the best way to take you over the threshold, so to speak. And I would recommend that you think about that possibility, and possibly discuss it with him some more, before you scrap the whole project.




LaMspeach -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 7:21:35 PM)

ggonknees,
Go with your gut feeling, if your gut is telling you something is wrong then chances are there is. Listening to your inner self doesn;t make you wrong, if anything it makes you better able to understand your own wants and needs and in my own opinion they should be compatiable with your Doms/Masters.




DesertRat -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 7:35:07 PM)

My slave has submitted to me willingly because she knows me very well, and knows what kind of treatment to expect from me. With that accomplished, she knows she can obey me fully and that I will not take her outside of her limits. Can the limits change? Sure, but only after we talk about it and really work out what we both want. Ultimately, it comes down to "whatever the Master wants". But that is only true because she knows I don't want to do anything that will freak her out or otherwise harm her.

Bobcat (DesertRat)



darksparkle -> RE: Rape and training (5/19/2005 10:20:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

My slave has submitted to me willingly because she knows me very well, and knows what kind of treatment to expect from me. With that accomplished, she knows she can obey me fully and that I will not take her outside of her limits. Can the limits change? Sure, but only after we talk about it and really work out what we both want. Ultimately, it comes down to "whatever the Master wants". But that is only true because she knows I don't want to do anything that will freak her out or otherwise harm her.

Bobcat (DesertRat)

Well said! Thankyou for posting this....



FelinePersuasion -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 1:09:04 AM)

Rapel,

In these sitautions anything is flawd because you only have one side to go on, and you can't get a feel for really just what's what.


That being said, if someone has clearly said they were against being raped, then no is no. if that is going to hurt someone emotionally pychically or mentally the person is choosing to do something very dangerous someone with their mates best mindset and interest wouldn't do.

If she's said no I am not ok with this it scares me I don't want to do this, then he should listen. Maybe she hasn't made herself clear enough, maybe she has to say why, but in most cases with something as serious as this considered play, her concerns should be listend to and supported.


That would be like the guy who cut his dogs ears off with sizors cause he could and he wanted croped ears. The guy on animal cops wanted croped ears on his dog.The dog was barely a year old and he just hacked the ears off cause in his mind, it's his dog his ears it's ok to do so. And he belived puppies don't feel pain. The dog actually suffered horrifically cause of the actions, but in the owners mind no big it's just a baby right? It's my dog I didn't hurt it right?



Mia1978 -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 9:58:02 AM)

Do you want to be a slave or a sub? I think there is a big difference. I think if he 100% wants to do something and you 100% don't & he 100% insists on it being his way, then there is something wrong. Your relationship won't last long and you may end up with more regrets than fond memories. You are still a human.

If you aren't ready to cut him off totally, then you could try talking through it some more. You could let him know that what his idea of rape is and your idea of rape may be 2 different things, and you want to know what to expect from him. If you don't mind the force, but fear the tearing...ask him if he will be prepared with lube and some foreplay. Just a thought. If he's unwilling to ease any of your fears, then he is one sick puppy in my mind. If he's just trying to show you "who's in charge", then you have to decide if you like feeling "not in charge at all". If you don't like it, you won't get along with this guy and you will be sending yourself down a road that will bring you much sorrow.

I personally feel that you two want different things. junecleaver said it perfectly: You can't rape the willing.

I don't think he is mind-fucking you. I think he's letting you know what you can expect if you continue this relationship. Another side to this is law. If you agree to let him rape you and he does, and something goes horribly wrong, the law may not hold him accountable. He may be covering his bases (especially if he's been in trouble with the law before). Could he be saving your correspondance or tape recording your conversations? Be honest with yourself - if you don't want what he is offering, find a better guy for you.

One last thought here, if you are this nervous about him, you need to take your instincts seriously. If you want to be owned there are MANY men who will accomodate you. From your post, I wonder if you are perhaps insecure and a bit anxious for a man to desire you so fully. There are many masters & doms out there that will want and own you, but still respect your humanity.

Good luck in your ventures. Until this is all settled with, I'd make sure you let someone know where you will be and for how long (when you go meet him). That way if something goes wrong, someone has some clue where to start looking for you.






Kiaban -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 10:04:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

You can't rape the willing. ;)

Yes you can !



MadameDahlia -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 11:24:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael


quote:

No good master would want to break a slave, The spirit of the slave is what makes a person a person.


Yes and no. Depends on what exactly he meant by break.

Bend, sure. Break? Like glass? Shattered. What use is a broken submissive? What use is someone who curls up and cringes in a corner when you even look at them? Broken, abuse… give me a break.

quote:


And another red flag is someone saying good when you voice an issue that scares you. Aprehension nervouse ness all that's good but to honestly want to scare someone is dangerous.


I disagree with this. It might well be that what he means when he says 'good' is simply that the fact she's scared shows she's taking it seriously. That she's finally got it through her skull that this is NOT A GAME.

That’s not psychologically health. The fact that he’s getting off on her terror sounds like he’s some sort of freak – the type that gives those involved in consensual relationships a bad reputation. You want someone on his or her toes? Fine. You want someone a bit nervous about a scene? That’s your deal. You want someone terrified? What the hell kind of monster does that make you? {him}

quote:

Of my old self - that's what he says. i understand that encouraging my slave out over my vanilla-self is done through the training, but i agree, i can't see how rape can do that. As you can see, it's flipped me the other way.


I can see that. You've lived your entire life, I'm assuming, in a reality where YOU get to decide who gets to use your body, when, how, on what terms. You are, presumably, seeking to enter a relationship where that's no longer true. A rape-scene might be one way of impressing deeply into your consciousness that change.

Or it could be what removes all sense of security. It could be what makes her jump at the slightest sound for years and years to come. It could be what makes her look over her shoulder, walking home, going to her car or even in the grocery store.





EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 11:33:59 AM)

Being someone who plays with fear quite regularly and finds it one of her biggest kinks, I have to say I think you're stating the case a bit too strongly. I like REAL fear, I get off on the truly terrified part of things.

The difference being that I'm pretty experienced at this point and understand exactly the difference between positive fear and negative fear, what will make a great scene and what will make a bomb.

I'm not a monster, neither are the tops/dom/Owner who know and desire to inspire true fear.



MadameDahlia -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 11:40:17 AM)

I'm not saying that I don't get off on it... But I must have a deeply trusting relationship with someone first.

She's talking about him telling her this during their first session. They've only known each other a short time.

OP: "We've been corresponding for about 3 months, met after 1 month, in private the other week."

I don't see how there could be that same level of trust established?

You're experienced and she said that she's very new to "the scene" by which I think she means BDSM.



ggonknees -> RE: Rape and training (5/20/2005 11:41:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle


ggonknees your thinking is not flawed. You were uncomfortable with his line of thinking, spoke your concerns & discovered, (at the very least), his ways are not compatible with yours... This does not make you wrong or bad. It does say that you are intelligent enough to listen to your gut feelings.

Rape training.... What a crock!

It really pisses me off to no end when people pull out the "non consensual consent" card to justify detrimental behavior!!!!!!!



Thank you - that makes sense. I said to him that I wasn't the slave for him - we were certainly thinking in similar ways, but it's clear that our quirks (!?!) were different.
gg



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