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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 4:30:05 AM   
Tristan


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Just currious, what exactly is a patriarchal society? I hear this term used a lot, but I don't think I'm really seeing what I think most feminists would call a patriarchal society nor have I in my working career.

I've read plenty of studies about how body type like being tall, short, or over wieght will effect your pay. Short men and over wieght women are generally not paid as well as everyone else, but is this really what is traditionally thought of as discrimination or patriarchy? And sure, there are some men who hire only very pretty women. Discrimination? Yes, but not really the kind that I think the feminists are talking about. What I've noticed is that in male dominated jobs like engineering, it's the women who have the advantage, and in female dominated jobs like nursing or teaching, its the men who have the advantage. Sure there are sexist out there who will hire only one gender, but again, there is plenty of affirmative action too that affects specific races and genders in a positive way.

Then look at children. Is there anything more important? If we were living in patriarchal society wouldn't the children belong to the father? In our society, the children belong to their mothers. I've read about a few cases of fathers taking this equal protection concept to the state supreme courts because most states simply do not give fathers custody unless a social worker had documented abuse by the mother. I don't think any of these cases are being won by fathers rights groups nor are they getting much attention in the news.

Are there differences in social expectations between men and women? Most definately. Are these differences due to a patriachal society? I'm not seeing it that way. Getting back to the original post, I suppose that female supremacy as a fetish is probably harmless. Any type of supremacy as a belief is probably fairly destructive and also a good sign of unresolved issues.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 4:55:59 AM   
SweetDommes


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I would have to say that this is a patriarchal society. The males are supposed to be in charge, the woman takes the man's name (usually), the man is still supposed to be the primary money earner - yes things are changing, but very slowly.

As for your examples: as a nurse, I haven't seen that male nurses have any advantage ... too many stereotypes about them still, although I don't know about the engineer thing, as I'm not one. And the custody thing is because women are seen as the nurturers, and therefore more suited to raising children - true or not, that is the thought process.


(in reply to Tristan)
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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 8:24:19 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Then look at children. Is there anything more important? If we were living in patriarchal society wouldn't the children belong to the father? In our society, the children belong to their mothers. I've read about a few cases of fathers taking this equal protection concept to the state supreme courts because most states simply do not give fathers custody unless a social worker had documented abuse by the mother. I don't think any of these cases are being won by fathers rights groups nor are they getting much attention in the news.


Very true - however - childcare decisions were/are, ultimately - decided by men.

In a patriarchal society, men are the cheif breadwinners - they have authority over women and children. It is they that make the laws. In a patriarchal society - it is determined that women care for the children. They are the nurses, the carers. It is the patriarchal society that causes men to loose out on the rights of the father - its a bit like cutting off ones nose off despite ones face. Patriarchal betrayal.

Peace and Love


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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 8:26:17 AM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

Just currious, what exactly is a patriarchal society?


Guess this topic isn't gonna stay on intimacy and D/s.

Anyway, a patriarchal sosciety is one in which Patriarchs (male heads of household) have political and property rights to the exlusion of others. The Roman Republic would be a perfect example: a male head of household had political, property and even personal power over anyone in their family (to the point of being able to administer justice, notionally even capital punishment).

Classical, Attic Athens would be a semi or mostly partiarchal sopciety, in that all political, and most property rights were reserved for autourgos, male free-holders. Unlinke the Republic, a woman had at least notional legal rights (although there are many documented cases of men easily manipulating the legal system to deny women their legal rights, ie Alcibaides).

Lakedaemia (Sparta) would be an example of a political system with som patriarchal elemnts (mostly in political representation), but with strong legal enforcement of women's property and civil rights (backed by cultural mores).

America is probably the farthest thing from a patriarchy ever seen in history, so when someone uses the word "Patriarchy" now to describe our culture and nation, it is sloppy, innacurate language.

But that use that sloppy, innacurate language to get across something they feel pretty strongly: that women still don't get a fair shake in America. I think you can make an arguement for that.

(in reply to Tristan)
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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 8:57:08 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

America is probably the farthest thing from a patriarchy ever seen in history, so when someone uses the word "Patriarchy" now to describe our culture and nation, it is sloppy, innacurate language.


In essence I have to agree - however - both in the US and in the UK at the governement has the ability to superceed any decisions made on a variety of issues. The home secretary has done so in this last year in the UK. And these are Men and using a law defined by men. So therefore - by definition the society is patriarchal.

A patriarchal society definition is very simple. It is one governed by a patriarch(or plurel). The definition of patriarch is simple also - a man who rules a clan, family or tribe.

Personally - I don;t see anything wrong with a patriarchal society - but its when the society is abused that the problems start. I don't think this is just a 'girl' thing... I think it effects everything and everyone within the society - it can be a huge weight for men to bare(expectations are very high on males) - and it can lead to a loss of rights for women and other much smaller minorities.


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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 2:28:00 PM   
Faramir


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ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:



A patriarchal society definition is very simple. It is one governed by a patriarch(or plurel). The definition of patriarch is simple also - a man who rules a clan, family or tribe.



I'm not going to tell you that your language must conform to some standard - you are a free agent who can do whatever she chooses, and if you want to have your own, personal definition of a word that is outside common denotion - that's your right.

I would point out though that your personal defintion would be just that - personal. Can I suggest this - just consider an alternative?

The American Heritage dictionary defines "patriarchy" as "A social system in which the father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children." A historian like Christian Meier would use a similiar definition - not where a head of state is a male, or males, but rather individual male family heads have legal (political and property) control over their wives and children.

You could try and construe this anyway you want, but family headship has no codified legal rights in the US, and I doubt in the USA. Property titling doesn't distinguish by sex, nor suffrage, nor criminal/civil code enforcement. Tort law in the US doesn't distinguish between women and men.

That's a perfect example to ilustrate why social scientists have this specific word of "patriarchy." In an actual patriarchy like the Republic, a contract with a woman would be unenforcable - she has no property rights and so can't sign a valid contract. In a semi-patriarchial society like Attic Greece, you might have a woman possibly sign a valid contract, but she might not, depending on her legal status and the appointment of a male guardian (a kyrios).

But in the US (and I would bet anything the UK), if a woman signs a contract, it is enforcable - they are not patriarchies.

< Message edited by Faramir -- 5/25/2005 2:32:59 PM >

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 3:38:02 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

I would point out though that your personal defintion would be just that - personal. Can I suggest this - just consider an alternative?


You can - you could also follow your own example. Your definition is just that - yours from one. I do consider all alternatives - I take the collective selection - not just a description from one source. The source I quoted was from a dictionary. Here are some more - from various sources.

A hierarchical social system and way of thinking where "fathers" or "patriarchs" rule which has become a model for every form of domination and subordination. Paul contradicts this system when he asserts that within marriage, women and men are equal sex partners (1 Cor. 7:1-7).
gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/glossary.stm

where a father figure and males have authority.
oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth370/gloss.html

Male dominance: literally the rule of the father ; technically government by men, either in the family or in society, with authority and materialities such land being passed from father to son.
www.adamranson.freeserve.co.uk/critical%20concepts.htm

Social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line.
collections.ic.gc.ca/princegeorge/glossary.htm

is the male domination of ownership and control, at all levels in society, which maintains and operates the system of gender discrimination. This system of control is justified in terms of patriarchal ideology - a system of ideas based on a belief in male superiority and sometimes the claim that the gender division of labour is based on biology or even based on scripture.
www.bigpond.com.kh/users/gad/glossary/gender.htm

A system of male authority which oppresses women through social, political and economic institutions
www.personal.utulsa.edu/~lara-foley/definitions.htm

Dominator form of society (androcracy) in which men are the dominant gender.*
www.geocities.com/seaskj/glossary.html

father-rule; a hierarchical form of group organization.
www.jcu.edu/Bible/205/Readings/Glossary.htm

a collective dominated by men, a society which identifies the male as the norm or standard by which all are judged
gs.fanshawec.ca/ENGL286/glossary.htm

system of gendered power relations through which men exercise power over women.
media.pearsoncmg.com/intl/ema/uk/0131217666/student/0131217666_glo.html

a form of social organization in which a male is the family head and title is traced through the male line
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

A patriarch (from Greek: patria means father; arch means rule, beginning, origin) is a male head of an extended family exercising autocratic authority, or, by extension, a member of the ruling class or government of a society controlled by senior men. The word patriarch also denotes any of certain high-ranking bishops in some hierarchical churches; see patriarch; the word patriarchy in that case refers to his seat and domain.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

I wasn't trying to 'choose my definition'. I was offering another. Now I offer more. I could do so again if you truely wish...

In the 80's - the UK - it could be argued was a Matriarchal Society (Thatcher) - but the laws were still formed by men. You could say - that having a Queen - we are Matriarchal but only by default - if you take the Patriarcal inheritance view...

I personally, never attacked your view, nor stated that you were right or wrong - I just offered a written definition (not my own)- and I now offer a variety. I never claimed it foolish, sloppy or inacurate. I never attacked your post, so I fail to understand why you should condecend my post just because it differs from yours.

Like I said - I don't really think a patriarcial society is wrong - but its the abuse that exists within it. I was responding to the posts from a govermental point of view, not a legal contract one - as you are insisting upon.

Peace and Love


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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 3:57:46 PM   
Tristan


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I would agree with Faramir that America and the rest of the western world is anything but a patriarchy. For one thing, women make up 51% of the voters in the US and are there are more organizations dedicated to promoting women's issues than men's issues. A patriarchy is something like afghanistan not the US.

It seems to me that we have a mutual separation of labor between the genders that may or may not be changing. Its probably changing a lot more for women than for men at the moment. Men are supposed to provide financial support for the family, but in no way do they have authority over their wives and children. Those days are long gone. Today, a wife can leave her husband for no reason and take the children and house and get a monthly monetary payment. Only if a man can provide for his family can he show emotion and support for others. Otherwise, he would be labled a wimp by both men and women. I'm not sure that that part of our gender expections are changing.

These gender differences do not seem to be forced on us by a patriarchy either. Men who have power or money generally do not lack for dates. If I remember correctly, Donald Trump used to have a doctor check out potential partners before having sex with them. How many other men could get away with something like that? On the other side, there are plenty of Paris Hiltons out there who get pretty much anything they want regardless of personal ability or intelligence. It seems to me that there is something other than a patriachy that's responsable for these gender expectations.

Well, I suppose this is all way off the topic originally posed by Faramir. Getting back to the original topic, female supremacy as a fetish. Is it possible to separate supremacy as a fetish from supremacy as a belief? I really don't have any idea. There was a similar thread a few weeks ago by ginger21 about using racial humiliation that made some people uncomfortable.

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 4:01:09 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
America is probably the farthest thing from a patriarchy ever seen in history, so when someone uses the word "Patriarchy" now to describe our culture and nation, it is sloppy, innacurate language.

But that use that sloppy, innacurate language to get across something they feel pretty strongly: that women still don't get a fair shake in America. I think you can make an arguement for that.


Our opinions differ. What you consider to be a sloppy use of words, I consider to be a widely supported academic use of words.

Now the real questions Faramir… Do you get off on being insulting? I have shown you nothing but consideration in this thread and you have to respond with insults. I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to put me down in an effort to make yourself look superior. We can debate the issues in a respectful way. At least I know I can.

- LA


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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 4:02:26 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Well, I suppose this is all way off the topic originally posed by Faramir. Getting back to the original topic, female supremacy as a fetish. Is it possible to separate supremacy as a fetish from supremacy as a belief? I really don't have any idea. There was a similar thread a few weeks ago by ginger21 about using racial humiliation that made some people uncomfortable.


I think that its possibly a personal thing. It would be (imo) wonderful if people could find it within their structure to seperate the two. To me, they are seperate identities. Like the racial humiliation - or age play - or adult babies - they aren't the actual - they are the fetish. One is done out of love, the other out of hate.

Peace and Love


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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 4:04:33 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I think that its possibly a personal thing. It would be (imo) wonderful if people could find it within their structure to seperate the two. To me, they are seperate identities. Like the racial humiliation - or age play - or adult babies - they aren't the actual - they are the fetish. One is done out of love, the other out of hate.

Peace and Love



I agree angel. I can "play" the female superiority role play game very well. I don't actually go on day to day thinking I'm superior to men.

- LA

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/25/2005 4:47:03 PM   
QnofH3arts


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Guess this topic isn't gonna stay on intimacy and D/s.


The following is said with tongue in cheek:

Ever hear the saying, "Behind every good man is a woman... etc.." My particular favorite ending to that saying is "...with a boot up his behind."

If men were really so powerful, wouldn't they all be sitting on thrones while the women do the hard work and bring home the bacon?

And how about the bathroom cartoon of the little girl and little boy and the girl says, "My mama told me that as long as I have one of these (pointing to her vagina), I can have all of those I want, (pointing to his penis)."

Some might consider there to be foundation in reality for Female Supremacy. Look at the basic instincts of man and woman. Man's is to procreate - to spread his genes as far and wide as possible, (possibly explaining his fascination with his penis). Woman's is to harness that and mold it into something that will protect and provide for the genes he's already spread. She does that by using her sexuality, her femininity, to manipulate him. Man becomes the protector/provider while woman is the homemaker/nurturer.

Man tends to fight at the slightest provocation, and it is usually a physical contest, (another argument for turning a man into a protector), whereas women simply annihilate their enemies, figuratively or literally. Haven't you heard of the societal "cut"? Women perfected that and it's very efficient at making people feel small or invisible. And I can clearly recall the reaction of most females to 9-11. Nuclear weapons were mentioned often by the women here. Instead, our boys are over there engaging in armed combat, (a man's decision).

Then there's the animal kingdom. Most animal societies are matriarchal. Humans are just animals with a more intelligent brain (most of the time).

The reality, though, is that we are all equal, but opposite. Our strengths are complementary to each other as are our weaknesses. We are Yin and Yang, incomplete without the other half.

Within the realm of intimate D/s relationships, male submissives who subscribe to the Female Superiority theme tend to be those who simply recognize the true natural order created by Mother Nature. I'm just kidding!!! No, these men often carry a huge burden of responsibility in their careers. They are Type A personalities, very dominant, in control and in charge. Submission is a balance to them, an opportunity to leave the burden of their responsibilities at work, or at least in their briefcase. Knocking an Alpha male off of his God-like pedestal is kind of like trying to topple Mount Rushmore. You have to use extreme measures. What could be more extreme than the "fantasy" of Female Supremacy after the day he's had at work?

He arrives home to face the Queen and suddenly his sole reason for existence is to keep her happy. All of his problems from work pale in comparison to the thought of earning her displeasure. And all of his successes are simply gifts he offers to her for her pleasure.

Many of these men do subscribe to the theories outlined above - that women are more logical and intellectual thinkers, more in control of our sexuality and deadlier to our enemies.

Once again, you have to know me to understand the tone of my posts. Just remember, "tongue in cheek". It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt - and then the real pleasure begins!

(in reply to Faramir)
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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/27/2005 12:41:13 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QnofH3arts
Within the realm of intimate D/s relationships, male submissives who subscribe to the Female Superiority theme tend to be those who simply recognize the true natural order created by Mother Nature. I'm just kidding!!! No, these men often carry a huge burden of responsibility in their careers. They are Type A personalities, very dominant, in control and in charge. Submission is a balance to them, an opportunity to leave the burden of their responsibilities at work, or at least in their briefcase. Knocking an Alpha male off of his God-like pedestal is kind of like trying to topple Mount Rushmore. You have to use extreme measures. What could be more extreme than the "fantasy" of Female Supremacy after the day he's had at work?


That's an interesting angle. I wonder if it is less a way of balancing then a particular kind of enabling or gateway.

Clearly there are dominant men in intimacy who are also Alpha type leaders - they don't need to balance anything - they are hunky-dory where they are. And there are at least some (I know two) submissive (intmacy) men who are pretty unagressive and omega in their lifestyle. Neither of those types need to balance anything - they are cool where they are at.

I wonder though - if you are an Alpha aggressive type in social contexts, but submissive in your sexuality, maybe you need a gateway to get into submission: female supremacy? Or possibly for that alpha type who longs to submit sexually, the female supremacy model offers a special "kick" or kink by reversing roles?

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/27/2005 1:01:47 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


quote:

ORIGINAL: QnofH3arts
Within the realm of intimate D/s relationships, male submissives who subscribe to the Female Superiority theme tend to be those who simply recognize the true natural order created by Mother Nature. I'm just kidding!!! No, these men often carry a huge burden of responsibility in their careers. They are Type A personalities, very dominant, in control and in charge. Submission is a balance to them, an opportunity to leave the burden of their responsibilities at work, or at least in their briefcase. Knocking an Alpha male off of his God-like pedestal is kind of like trying to topple Mount Rushmore. You have to use extreme measures. What could be more extreme than the "fantasy" of Female Supremacy after the day he's had at work?


That's an interesting angle. I wonder if it is less a way of balancing then a particular kind of enabling or gateway.

Clearly there are dominant men in intimacy who are also Alpha type leaders - they don't need to balance anything - they are hunky-dory where they are. And there are at least some (I know two) submissive (intmacy) men who are pretty unagressive and omega in their lifestyle. Neither of those types need to balance anything - they are cool where they are at.

I wonder though - if you are an Alpha aggressive type in social contexts, but submissive in your sexuality, maybe you need a gateway to get into submission: female supremacy? Or possibly for that alpha type who longs to submit sexually, the female supremacy model offers a special "kick" or kink by reversing roles?


A type A corporate leader could be a submissive in the bedroom without subscribing at all to any views of female supremacy. If he was a true female supremacist to the core, how would a hugely successful businessman balance his views in a company top-heavy with male executives and women being paid less than? Unless he worked for a company where women were primarily ahead and leading (which is limited to a few fields), he would be in a constant struggle with his political/social views in the workplace. Could he get all the way to the top with those kinds of conflicts?

I think this assumption is a little weak. High powered execs who like to submit in their offtime don't do it because they believe women are superior. They do it because they enjoy sensual power exchange.

And, I don't fully subscribe to the idea that a large number of male submissives *are* high powered businessmen or people of status -- doctors, lawyers, ceos. I think that idea came from information gathered from Professional Dominas, whose clientele OF COURSE is of this bracket. Can a fast food manager, or trash person at an amusement park afford $250 an hour for leisure activities on a regular basis?

There are just as many students, poor people and average joe's into BDSM.

Akasha

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/27/2005 1:22:31 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

A type A corporate leader could be a submissive in the bedroom without subscribing at all to any views of female supremacy. If he was a true female supremacist to the core, how would a hugely successful businessman balance his views in a company top-heavy with male executives and women being paid less than?


I don't think either of us meant female supremacy as a serious ideology, but rather as a kink.

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/27/2005 7:28:58 PM   
k8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
I never hear male doms talk about female inferiority


You don't hang around bondage.com much, do you?

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/28/2005 5:46:22 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

Saw this today in a profile:
quote:

"I'm not just a girl w/ a Dominant lifestyle.
I believe in female superiority but respect a male's inferiority..."
Not sure exactly how you can "respect male inferiority," but....

WTF is up with this? I never hear male doms talk about female inferiority, and never heard a woman speak about her own inferiority, but it seems pretty common in femdom to male sub. Where does that come from? And do lesbian femdoms talk about...some female inferiority? Like, if the genesis of the power exchange is gender inferiority, how could a femdom dominate another woman?

I'm sure this attitude is not universal among femdoms, just curious if anyone had any insight it this model's origin. Is there like a Gor type book with inferior men or something in popular culture of BDSM that made this popular?


I'm curious as to why a self identified Dominant would really care what other Domiants, regardless of gender, have to say in their profiles.

To try to quantify this stuff is like trying to find a needle in a haystack; it's so difficult to come to any agreement and far too easy to offend people in the process.

Though, I am convinced, after reading this thread, that it was put out there in order to start an argumentative thread in which the heat would get turned up. I find this a very unattractive trait in a Dominant of either gender.

Lily

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(in reply to Faramir)
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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/28/2005 6:18:09 AM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: k8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
I never hear male doms talk about female inferiority


You don't hang around bondage.com much, do you?


I do actually
Seriously though, have you heard that articulated as a D/s framework at b.com?

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/28/2005 8:24:02 AM   
SweetDommes


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I have, Faramir ... you apparently haven't been hanging out at the right times. The threads are often very popular, but still short lived (30+ replies in a few minutes, then it dies off and gets buried - at least in my experience). I have quit hanging out there though ... stopped going about a year ago because I was tired of having my opinions/advice/comments ignored because I was not only "new" (not many posts) but a Fem - blah. After having someone else (male - dom of course) post the same thing that I had posted 2 pages before and suddenly get a lot of comments one way or the other (honestly, normally how brilliant he was for thinking of such a thing), I decided that if my opinion wasn't good enough for them, I would take it elsewhere. The general atmosphere is better here and at lit anyway ...

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RE: Male Inferiority - 5/28/2005 9:38:51 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

I have, Faramir ... you apparently haven't been hanging out at the right times. The threads are often very popular, but still short lived (30+ replies in a few minutes, then it dies off and gets buried - at least in my experience). I have quit hanging out there though ... stopped going about a year ago because I was tired of having my opinions/advice/comments ignored because I was not only "new" (not many posts) but a Fem - blah. After having someone else (male - dom of course) post the same thing that I had posted 2 pages before and suddenly get a lot of comments one way or the other (honestly, normally how brilliant he was for thinking of such a thing), I decided that if my opinion wasn't good enough for them, I would take it elsewhere. The general atmosphere is better here and at lit anyway ...


Sort of off topic, but I am equally frustrated with bondage.com for their M/f ratio in posts. It's nearly impossible to get any good femdom discussions going. The same is on literotica. I've been actively searching out a new place to post and get involved in discussions since usenet really has taken a dive, but there is a lack of "femdom" discussion groups with decent traffic. Am I missing an obvious one?

Akasha

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(in reply to SweetDommes)
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