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My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 2:29:13 AM

tulipgoose

Posts: 112
Joined: 10/30/2004
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I am nearly certain that this has been discussed and dissected many time here, there, and everywhere discussions on the BDSM and related lifestyles and interest exist. How does one decide their place? Is it given to you? Taken from you? I know I know! It depends on the person. Don't tell me that! For you, what defines, and determines YOUR place, or your place if you feel the need to be lowered in typographical manner. Why would a slave, or sub's place be lower than a Master's or Dom's? Why wouldn't it be equal in worth, but merely different in context and concept? Why do some feel this way? Why do some not? (Please explain your own situations, as to why you feel as you do) *smiles* I know what works for whoever works for whoever. I believe in living and let living. I respect all ways which are respectful of my own ways, and accept in a respectful manner many that aren't.

Post #: 1

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 2:52:08 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

What is a "place"? Is it determined by power, worth, fitness, or some other attribute?
"All men [and now women, but still not minors] are created equal" is sort of an idea that goes throughout our society. Agree or not (I certainly don't), or realize how it's been misapplied, it acts in our society regardless.

What is it to be higher in a pecking order?
Typically, this implies some level of respect, control, and fame. Power.

Should one adopt a stance, how is it applied?
This depends on the stance. Some are scene- dominant or submissive only with partners or at certain times- while others are lifestyle- in their roles at all times as a general statement of personality.
Disclaimer: Yes, I would define someone as "scene" if they are not true to their stance in normal life. There are other definitions of "scene". This is the definition of scene for the sake of this arguement. Your definition of "scene" is still valid- I'm just not talking about it here. I do not care to debate who's definition is prettier. If you do not like "scene" in this usage, pretend I used some other word with this deefinition. Please do not hold me responsible for that statement when you substitute in your definition of "scene"- that's putting words in my mouth. My apologies for having to put in such a disclaimer, though I'd perfer to avoid the confusion early on.

How people interact is varient on the scene vs. lifestyle bit.

For lifestyle parties..
-Dominants must find some pecking order amongst themselves- even if this pecking order is one of equality in respect and command.
-Submissives would not typically come to conflict, naturally not seeking to command. Should they, a compromise would, again, have to be reached.
-Compromises can be reached through feeling things out.
-Dominants would take the lead with subs under normal circumstances.

For scene parties..
-Equality reigns. Everyone's, pretty much, on the same level.
-Individuals may come to know eachother personally, developing their own dynamics in which D/s or D/s-esque attributes are created.

For mix of lifestyle and scene parties..
-The scene ideal of equality reigning takes circumstantial precidence. Society at large often believes in equality- this grants social validity and strength to the scene argument.

Now, you've asked for personal answers. So, this explained, I'm lifestyle. I'm dominant. It's who I am- not a role I play. This comes through in my mannerisms and way of living. I'm sure of myself and carry a distaste for being slowed by others. When it comes to other dominants, I'll often look for grounds in which respect might be established, be it as equals or otherwise, and try to maintain some distance so that conflicts are not pressured past the point at which we might mutually agree to disregard them.

When it comes to lifestyle subs, I have no problem taking the lead; it's my personality.

When it comes to scene people, I try to keep the equality-bit going. To me, scene people are esscentually vanilla outside of their dynamics. I treat them as such.

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 2

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 2:57:53 AM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
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It was placement that opened my eyes to what I’d done all my life.
When in a relationship I always assumed the place of facilitator, helper,
I was the one that worked in the background and let the other lead. Of course this was from a Nilla relationship. I’m sure it may not have always seemed that way on the other side cause communication wasn’t there. Many times I had to guess at what was needed, or wanted which I suppose now would appear like Topping from the Bottom. I never felt second best unless I guessed wrong.

I think that equal in worth thing can be confusing. Sure one side may appear to be less, but without an Indian there’d be no Chief. That’s where the trick lies cause I cant be forced for very long. I have to want to be the Indian or the wrong Chief will have a mutiny on his hands.

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 3

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 4:58:06 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

i think a dom and sub both have equal worth, it's the status that is not equal. If i see a dom who i think feels subs are of less worth, i steer very clear.

my place is determined partly by how i feel and partly by how i live my life. i feel the need in my life to submit, play etc but have no partner, what does that make me???? i had a partner and all those needs being met, but was unhappy, what does that make me??? Each person will interpret those situations differently.

Some say you cannot be a dom or sub without a sub or dom. i don't believe i stopped being a submissive when my collar was removed. i look at life and interpret life through those eyes, and always will.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 4

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 5:35:06 AM

shyinini

Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline

Sir and I both believe it is an equal partnership. There is no D without the s and no s without the D.
He controls I obey.

But I have a feeling your question is more about how does one find who they are..., their place. If I am correct, let me briefly state something we are presently going through.
Sir and I have been mentoring this gal who by all potential reasons seemed like a submissve. Now that we have given her more information, answered her questions, and she has observed the dynamic between Sir and I, she really seeems like a bedroom submissive or at best a bedroom switch type.
She is discussing that now with Sir. This woman is married and does seem to live the traditional June Cleaver wife role with her husband in a meaningless marriage as she says. She is attempting to find her place.

Sir's patient slut

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 5

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 5:58:54 AM

sleazybutterfly

Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline

I know that I am fully equal to dominants (male or female), my status (or title) is just different. I choose to submit to the man I am with, but I don't choose to submit to anyone else in life.

My "place" is being a good person, with a kind heart, that treats everyone with respect (as long as they do the same). I don't walk around all day thinking about how I am a slave, and how "low" I am on the totem pole in the bdsm world. I am a valuable human being with a lot to give to the world, a nice smile, and a kickass sense of humor.

My "role" (given by me) is to be his, to love him, to serve him, and to always do my best to make sure he doesn't want for anything I can provide.

If I choose to walk away tomorrow, ( I will still be a slave) I will still have a lot to give, a nice smile, and a kickass sense of humor....the slave part just won't be proactive. It will RIP until I find someone else, if ever, to give that part of myself over to again.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 6

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 7:11:59 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

*smiles* Our feelings on the matter are nicely summed up by my quote. I am his equal but my role is different.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 7

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 7:19:40 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

My place is dominant. It is my personality and itis how I relate to most people, in and out of the lifestyle. I do not force my dominance on anyone, but there are many people in the vanilla world who are just as happy to allow someone else to take the reins as there are in the BDSM one.

Angel is submissive to me, but not in general to most women. To strong women, vanilla and lifestyle, he is as well. He is my pet, alone, but he stilll has those feelings towards strong women. With men, he is dominant.

My new pet, Hoyt, is submissive with me and me alone. He is generally dominant and aggressive with everyone else but me. I take his edge off, and we are hoping I can help him soften up his general demeanor.

In both the relationships we are equals in importance, just opposites in demeanor. Without their obedience and consent, I would not be in command. We have our downtime and out vanilla enjoyments together as well.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 8

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 7:41:15 AM

BlindDescent

Posts: 113
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline

I find that when respondants answer questons like this, they focus on categories and names. I try to avoid compartmentalizing behavior and expectations while opening possibilities. I see my role as being here to create a "place" where she can imagine being no other place. The role she fills/becomes/occupies; manifests in the unique dynamic two of us have created. Spiritually, or from a Zen perspective I know that I occupy both a meaningless and most important place in the universe. I am as a speck of dust in time; yet I am capable of influencing people to manifest amazing things. So I know my place. I don't believe in pecking orders, except on an organinzational chart perspective. We all have the capacity to influence amazing things in others. I have learned in my own life how to find understanding in what others do well/not so well; then incorporate or remove those things from my life. Comparing leads to useless competition and/or frustration.
So back to the post; place is that unique space you create within the vision and care and/or caring of another. It is both giving and receiving. It should be a transcendant experience, as it evolves. I suggest focusing less on seeing it as a destination; and more so as the journey of self.

_____________________________

Reality is what you create; not what others leave behind.

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 9

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 8:14:52 AM

SingleRarity

Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline

So many questions! Starting from the top:

quote:

How does one decide their place? Is it given to you? Taken from you?

I can only speak from my perspective, but I don't think one decides, rather one just is, much like one doesn't seem to have much choice about who they are attracted to or what color eyes they were born with. But like most things when it comes to people, there is a wide spectrum of places; some people are firmly in the dominant spectrum, others way over in the submissive, while a fair number of people are in between. For those on opposite sides of the spectrum, there is no choice, no denying who they are (unless they can accept not being happy), but I imagine that for the people more in the middle that to some degree it can be "given" or "taken", in that a switch might find themselves being dominant to someone submissive and submissive to someone being dominant. Personally, what I've found is that when you find the right person, you suddenly find yourself in the right place naturally.

quote:

Why would a slave, or sub's place be lower than a Master's or Dom's? Why wouldn't it be equal in worth, but merely different in context and concept? Why do some feel this way? Why do some not?

Speaking of naturally, for us my place is standing and her place is at my feet, and for whatever reason this feels right. Now does that make us unequal in worth? Absolutely not. We are totally equal, we need each other, we are partners, yin and yang, and would not exist without one another, but when we are together we simply have different roles. She needs to hand power over to me, serve me and be my slave, while I need to guide her, protect her and push her to be her best in all regards. She is actually a very strong person and would survive and flourish just fine on her own, as am I, but together, as equals just in differnet roles, we are better. We would not be together if we were not equals, as neither of us would be happy being in an unequal relationship. But we also wouldn't be together if she were not submissive and I dominant, as we both need that dynamic because that is simply who we are. Thankfully, we are both wired just right for each other :)

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 10

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 8:17:17 AM

RaynaSub

Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline

No place at all, until I know you very well.
I need to know someone a while before I even let them know where
I live or go over to there place, alone.

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 11

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 8:51:15 AM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

I feel like we naturally fall into our "place" by being ourselves, and by choosing partners who enhance those feelings inside of us.
We can talk about equality, I appreciate that in the terms of mutual respect, etc, however i don't believe any relationship is 100% equal. What i strive for, is the right balance, again, to enhance my feeling of self, or place.

(in reply to RaynaSub)

Post #: 12

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 9:28:03 AM

MisterAndMistres

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.

This is actually a very astute description.

Someone I really respect once explained it as "submitting to the dynamic". Both Master and slave have their roles to play, and for the relationship to work, both must submit to the role. A Master must play his part, as must a slave. Neither part is inferior, as the dynamic will fail if either refuses to be what they must.

Taggard

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 13

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 9:43:15 AM

dawntreader

Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

Greetings BlindDescent,

We share the same perspective...i truly see the dynamic as being very yin/yang and most definitely as a journey~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to BlindDescent)

Post #: 14

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 10:23:07 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

My place is wherever he wants it to be. I am to obey and if that means taking a leadership role for a period of time then that is what I do but it could just as easily be to sit at his feet and don't speak without permission. It is all in what pleases him in the moment.

That being said, I chose a partner that did not consider me to have less worth than he does just because I choose to submit to him. No matter where he decides my place to be, it is not motivated from a position to make me feel less worthy or to demonstrate that I am less worthy. His motivation is because it pleases him.

All three of us bring our own strengths and weaknesses to the relationship. We are fortunate in that we complement each other very well and he seeks to utilize us to maximize our strengths.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 15

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 10:27:34 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tulipgoose
How does one decide their place? Is it given to you? ... For you, what defines, and determines YOUR place, or your place if you feel the need to be lowered in typographical manner. Why would a slave, or sub's place be lower than a Master's or Dom's? Why wouldn't it be equal in worth, but merely different in context and concept? Why do some feel this way? Why do some not?

When someone finds 'my place' will they please tell me, I have been looking for years.

Seriously, I EARNED my title of 'slave' years ago, I did not take it, I earned it; r/t, hard work, training {12 areas at last count}, learning. I was called 'submissive' by partners, then after a while, I did earn my 'title' as you call it, that's one reason why I loathe being called 'a sub' that little part of me in the back will get fired up and pissed. Its a BIG step backward to be called such after you have worked hard for something. Its like being a VP of a company to having someone call you a 'junior partner.' You earned your title then someone disrespects you in such a malicious manner.

I am equal to any given partner, just in different ways. I am the equal of EVERYONE on these boards and this site and off; as for my personal position within a given 'relationship' {romantic or otherwise} that is defined by us. My place is not 'lower' its just different from that of my partner, we have different needs and different roles, and we play them. No one is better than the other, just different.

Some people wish to dehuminize or to be dehuminized for whatever reasons that they DO talk down to or look down at others {or they do see themselves as lower beings}; its a personal issue, one where they need professional help, I don't take kindly to those who behave in such a manner; if they are that insecure that they have those 'needs' then I don't want anything to do with them. I will speak in 3rd person on occassion, in a formal/high protocol situation, because it it called for, otherwise, I won't. I use 'proper' wording and language when speaking with a partner, because of my training and to show respect, to someone that I do have a lot of respect for.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 16

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 11:50:41 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

"sub" means under, below, beneath.

My place is below him as he has ultimate authority and rule over me. Being at (or beneath) his feet does not mean there is no value or importance. It is simply where I belong. What makes it so? It is simply so.

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 17

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 12:21:07 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tulipgoose
How does one decide their place? Is it given to you? Taken from you?

Same way that vanillas determine their place with eachother.

quote:

For you, what defines, and determines YOUR place, or your place if you feel the need to be lowered in typographical manner.

For me it's based on where the energy goes and where I decide I'm fulfilled at.

quote:

Why would a slave, or sub's place be lower than a Master's or Dom's?

It is lower in terms of authority...that's about it.

As to why, well that's because it's the basis of an authority transfer relationship.

quote:

Why wouldn't it be equal in worth, but merely different in context and concept?

It is, what makes you think it isn't?

quote:

Why do some feel this way? Why do some not?

Because they get off on the inferiority/superiority thing.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_583716/mpage_1/key_equality/tm.htm#583730
Equality in Ds

http://www.collarchat.com/m_341688/mpage_2/key_equality/tm.htm#341946
equals

http://www.collarchat.com/m_567946/mpage_1/key_equality/tm.htm#568029
equality and love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_497194/mpage_1/key_equal/tm.htm#497265
double standards

http://www.collarchat.com/m_536782/mpage_1/key_equal/tm.htm#536950
equal rights and submission

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to tulipgoose)

Post #: 18

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 1:12:25 PM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

From the responses so far, I take it that scene BDSM calls for vanilla social standings outside of scenes while lifestyle BDSMers might take their roles with them with regards to their interactions with others?

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 19

RE: My place, or yours? - 6/3/2007 1:15:28 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
From the responses so far, I take it that scene BDSM calls for vanilla social standings outside of scenes while lifestyle BDSMers might take their roles with them with regards to their interactions with others?

I have no idea what this question is asking, can you restate?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 20

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