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RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 9:47:23 AM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
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Archer, that makes perfect sense and i'm pretty sure my response would be the same. I think sometimes i get a resistive streak with certain key words. In the way that you use it, protocol makes perfect sense to me. In ways that others may use it, it would seem stifling and more posturing than anything else.

Hearing others thoughts or viewpoints on any given matter certainly won't change my core personality, but i do enjoy hearing from those who can open my mind to alternative perceptions.

Thank you again..

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 6/4/2007 9:49:19 AM >

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 21

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 9:51:06 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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Yikes the Hierarchy of S-types bit goes against all I know and have found to be true in life.
The bar being "Higher" stuff really is not constructive in my mind.

The idea that a slave is better than a submissive is a value statement that can only be true if everyone buy into the exact same values. There are people in the world who would not be well served with or as a slave. How is slave better for them??????
It is not and thus any ranking of S-types is bunk unless you are specifying as a counterpart for a specific person or set of people who have agreed on a set of values.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 22

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 9:54:04 AM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Glad I could finaly figure out how to communicate my view in a way you could appreciate.
and certainly I have seen the stiffleing use of protocols by others oer the years.
I'm trying hard to recapture the idea from their possesion, LOL.
Trying to give it back to the rest of the world, LOL.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 23

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:03:45 AM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

I've never considered a post of yours to be other than insightful and thought provoking...so i would consider you successful in your endeavor..

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 24

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:08:08 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Yikes the Hierarchy of S-types bit goes against all I know and have found to be true in life.
The bar being "Higher" stuff really is not constructive in my mind.

The idea that a slave is better than a submissive is a value statement that can only be true if everyone buy into the exact same values. There are people in the world who would not be well served with or as a slave. How is slave better for them??????
It is not and thus any ranking of S-types is bunk unless you are specifying as a counterpart for a specific person or set of people who have agreed on a set of values.

A slave generally has more training, and is expected more of, etc. Its not hard to udnerstand. A slave has as much value as anyone else on this planet, just in my case and like those who have earned our titles, we have put more effort into things and we have been rewarded for our hardwork. Considering that on cm the number of [male] tops to [female] bottoms has to be around 12 to 1 {if not higher}; I do think slaves are of value, those who have training are rare, as are Masters/Mistresses who can appreciate a well trained slave; at least one who doesn't have to be babysat or trained from scratch.

A Master/Mitsress can have a slave, a Dominants/Dommes cannot. Dominants/Dommes have submissives; Masters/Mitresses have slaves. What is so hard to understand about that?! Its very simple.

If someone does not desire a slave, then they don't have to be served by one; they would be a Dominant/Domme, etc, NOT a Master/Mistress. I don't EVER want a Dominant, I get very insulted when they contact me and haven't a clue at the difference between a submissive and a slave.

Every relationship is different; my training is a baseline, its a place to start from with a given partner. Like I said, this weekend, I exceeded expectations; I'm happy for that, it has set a new bar for me to reach for now.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 25

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:10:44 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty
If someone does not desire a slave, then they don't have to be served by one; they would be a Dominant/Domme, etc, NOT a Master/Mistress. I don't EVER want a Dominant, I get very insulted when they contact me and haven't a clue at the difference between a submissive and a slave.

Every relationship is different; my training is a baseline, its a place to start from with a given partner. Like I said, this weekend, I exceeded expectations; I'm happy for that, it has set a new bar for me to reach for now.

If you weren't so hung up on your One True Way, you might not get so insulted or frustrated.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 26

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:14:41 AM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
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Slaverosebeauty, i'd still love some clarification on exactly what your "training" consists of, and from whom you "earned" your title.

Also, you do understand that your perception of who is and is not Master/Mistress/Dominant are your own perceptions,and not necessarily accepted on a universal level?

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 27

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:19:34 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty
If someone does not desire a slave, then they don't have to be served by one; they would be a Dominant/Domme, etc, NOT a Master/Mistress. I don't EVER want a Dominant, I get very insulted when they contact me and haven't a clue at the difference between a submissive and a slave.

Every relationship is different; my training is a baseline, its a place to start from with a given partner. Like I said, this weekend, I exceeded expectations; I'm happy for that, it has set a new bar for me to reach for now.

If you weren't so hung up on your One True Way, you might not get so insulted or frustrated.

I get frusturated by ignorance by those who don't 'get it.' I speak from my experienced and views. I get insulted because of the lack of knowledge that some people say that they have. I spend a LOT of time reading {books} to better myself and to better understand. LA others may enjoy your sarcasm, I don't its rude and uncalled for.

Their is a difference between, knowing, understanding, hearing and comprehending. If someone does not see those differences or doesn't take the time to, I can't and won't do it for them. Its teir loss, not mine.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 28

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:19:40 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
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Sometimes having restrictions put on you can help you, instead of hindering you. So if you're feeling as though your hands are tied today, do not try to free yourself. Accept the parameters you're given, because they will spark your creativity and force you to be even more innovative than you normally are.

That was my horoscope a few days ago but, for me, i can apply this to every day of my life. For me, having too much freedom can leave me floundering about trying to decide what i want to do first and getting easily distracted by all the things that interest me and that i want to do and i get frustrated because i can't get everything done that i would like.

Having a routine keeps me on task and i use my time and energy much more effectively. i get more accomplished this way.

No. Having rules, restrictions or even a routine doesn't make me feel any more or less submissive. It just allows me to function more effectively.

i enjoy protocol and it has it's place but, what is more important for me is knowing my place and knowing that i am able to function well, while i stay within my boundaries.

my Master is not very strict or rigid and He has made only a handful of rules for me to follow. i have instilled much of the protocol i follow on myself, because it does help me to feel i am not overstepping my boundaries. i don't feel comfortable when i am in a position that gives the impression that i am an equal with my Master. Therefor, i choose to sit on the floor, rather than the furniture, when W/we are in the same room. He hasn't made that a restriction for me, i have. i have choosen to serve Him meals and wait in the kitchen until He is finished and clean-up after Him before i eat and, even then, i choose to eat in the kitchen or on the back porch. That is my choice and the only time i don't do that is when my Master invites me to sit and eat with Him or when W/we are out somewhere eating together.

Rules, restrictions, protocol, routine, only serve to help me enjoy my life more by being able to get more done while staying within the framework of living that my Master and i have set up for U/us and that works for U/us. When situations arise and circumstances dictate, however, the rules and routine sometimes have to be put aside but, i always feel better when life settles down again and i can get back to my regular routine. But, even when i am unable to follow my usual protocol, i am still His slave and i still keep myself in my place.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11
The thread on rules got me thinking about rules, protocol, and the importance we place on them.
Are we defined by how many rules we are given to follow? Is the use ,or lack of, protocol a defining factor or basis for being submissive?
Do submissives feel more or less submissive by the number of rules and or protocols laid down to follow?
So...how important are rules and protocol to you?

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 29

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:24:48 AM

FelinePersuasion

Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline

They are next to nill on the important to me scale. We don't subscribe to havin a bunch of rules, and protocal. The only rule is my schooling is to be continued to completion, which I fully agree with, school work takes presidence over play time, and I am not ever to purposly hurt myself or behave recklessly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

So...how important are rules and protocol to you?

_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 30

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:25:41 AM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Save the it's simple arguments for others who are intimidated by them. My understanding of the Master slave dynamic is certainly up to par. I have owned my slave since 1999. And earned my Master's Cover a few years back in the Leather Community.

Now back to the debate at hand,
Saying a slave is better than a submissive is like saying a lemon is better than a lime. They are both citrus fruits but they are different and thus unless you specify better for what and to whom, any claim of better is unsupported.

Better than is always a subjective not objective and as such requires clarification of the subjective criteria.
A hammer is a better tool for driving nails than a can opener
But a can opener is a better tool than a hammer for opening cans.
So is a hammer better than a can opener? It depends on the job at hand.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 31

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:27:35 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11
Slaverosebeauty, i'd still love some clarification on exactly what your "training" consists of, and from whom you "earned" your title.

Also, you do understand that your perception of who is and is not Master/Mistress/Dominant are your own perceptions,and not necessarily accepted on a universal level?

As for my training, its a long story, I gave the nutshell version; if you want the longer version, please contact me off this thread. The title of 'slave' is earned after certain levels are met {various training, and a commitment is made to continue on this path}, etc; its also more though than 'ok, I'm a slave now that I have played' etc like I see a lot.

My views as to who is who and what is what is from my experiences and from those who I learned from; also as defined by definition, sorry to burst some people's bubble, their ARE differences. Olde Guard, High Protocol, Old School Lifestylers. They set the bar, then it 'changed' after a while. For good or bad, its irrelivant, just different.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 32

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:32:05 AM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11
Slaverosebeauty, i'd still love some clarification on exactly what your "training" consists of, and from whom you "earned" your title.

Also, you do understand that your perception of who is and is not Master/Mistress/Dominant are your own perceptions,and not necessarily accepted on a universal level?

As for my training, its a long story, I gave the nutshell version; if you want the longer version, please contact me off this thread. The title of 'slave' is earned after certain levels are met {various training, and a commitment is made to continue on this path}, etc; its also more though than 'ok, I'm a slave now that I have played' etc like I see a lot.

My views as to who is who and what is what is from my experiences and from those who I learned from; also as defined by definition, sorry to burst some people's bubble, their ARE differences. Olde Guard, High Protocol, Old School Lifestylers. They set the bar, then it 'changed' after a while. For good or bad, its irrelivant, just different.

Oh my...what a tidy, pretty little world you live in. So neat and orderly.

slaveAileen68
Oh look...I'm a slave now.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 33

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:33:57 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Save the it's simple arguments for others who are intimidated by them. My understanding of the Master slave dynamic is certainly up to par. I have owned my slave since 1999. And earned my Master's Cover a few years back in the Leather Community.

Now back to the debate at hand,
Saying a slave is better than a submissive is like saying a lemon is better than a lime. They are both citrus fruits but they are different and thus unless you specify better for what and to whom, any claim of better is unsupported.

No arguement, I never said you were not a Master. A title is earned, not given; you earned your title as I did mine; many around here did not, they just 'adopted' a term they liked.

Yes, what your are saying is true, a Master/Mistress has the need for a slave, as a Dominant/Domme has the need for a submissive; they go together. A Dominant may have the desire for a slave, then he would be a Master, NOT a Dominant.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 34

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 10:43:01 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

The point of the debate is the lack of clarity in communication that automaticly follows when one states a subjective in the same manner they would an objective.

The term "better" is in the english language a subjective evaluation, and it always requires a criteria to be a factual statement.
Without it, it is an incomplete statement or a false comclussion because the default is "for everyone".

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 35

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 11:31:59 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

The thread on rules got me thinking about rules, protocol, and the importance we place on them.

Are we defined by how many rules we are given to follow? Is the use ,or lack of, protocol a defining factor or basis for being submissive?

Do submissives feel more or less submissive by the number of rules and or protocols laid down to follow?

In my own case, I've never felt that either of the above define who i am or what i seek. I know i respond best in most situations without micro management, and without a laundry list of rules that basically fall under "personal preference". I know enough about myself to know that i would never thrive in a relationship with one who put restrictions on my speech, eye contact, or on my ability to conduct myself or function outside of our dynamic.

For me, it's always been more a state of mind, then a tangible thing, and i feel most submissive with the realization that i am pleasing my partner in any given circumstance, from my own free will and desire to please, in lieu of fearing punishment or repercussion from breaking a "rule".

So...how important are rules and protocol to you?

This does not include little rituals that may be in place to keep an intimate bond when partners cannot be physically together for one reason or another.

I think rules and protocol help a submissive/slave feel the warm fuzzies but I'm actually not a huge proponent of them. I think flexibility and the ability to adapt to the dominant, their preferences and desires is a stronger skills set to have than afherence to rules (although I think obedience is absolutely important).

So I guess its pretty obvious that I'm not big on protocols or rules. We probably have some that have developed fairly organically, but they aren't terribly static ones. I know most of my owners preferences and as they change he's certainly not shy about telling me. For instance there was never a point where he sat me down and said, "you must now make sure to always have Poland Springs carbonated water, Mandarin Orange flavored, always stocked in the refrigerator." I just knew that he liked it since he told me and since then, 99% of the time (I'd like to say 100% but I'm allowing for human error) its been there and chilled for him.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 36

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 11:44:39 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

A slave generally has more training, and is expected more of, etc. Its not hard to udnerstand. A slave has as much value as anyone else on this planet, just in my case and like those who have earned our titles, we have put more effort into things and we have been rewarded for our hardwork. Considering that on cm the number of [male] tops to [female] bottoms has to be around 12 to 1 {if not higher}; I do think slaves are of value, those who have training are rare, as are Masters/Mistresses who can appreciate a well trained slave; at least one who doesn't have to be babysat or trained from scratch.

A Master/Mitsress can have a slave, a Dominants/Dommes cannot. Dominants/Dommes have submissives; Masters/Mitresses have slaves. What is so hard to understand about that?! Its very simple.

While I agree that the linguistic complement to a slave is either owner, master, or mistress the rest I don't really agree with.

I think what makes a slave is that they are chattel or owned property, as opposed to being a free agent or single. I think if someone is single they are their own independent and autonomous person, which is fine but thats not a slave. I don't think being owned property means that you (you in a generic sort of way, not you slaverosebeauty) have any special training. I think once you get into the quality of submission/slavery is when training would be a factor among other factors (although if its shitty training again, thats a quality issue).

More simply put I think the issue of whether someone is a slave (yes/no they are a slave) is distinct from how good of a slave they are (i.e. quality).

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 37

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 1:56:27 PM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

That was well put Wildfleurs, i agree.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 38

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 3:44:24 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

For this owned slave, i must say that it isn't always necessary for someone to have to be "trained" to be a slave. There are some for whom there is a natural and inherent pull and tendency to be a slave, without any need to be trained. The pull and natural tendency is so strong that she (or he) seeks out ways to feel enslaved, while seeking to be and finally being owned and a slave to another.

That was certainly true for this slave. It was never enough to simply be submissive to a man. i had to be owned and i actively sought a Master to take ownership of me. i was never trained. But, i have always learned how the man i was serving, either as a submissive, as a wife, and now as a slave, wants things done. That isn't a matter of training but, simply asking and being told and sometimes shown how He likes things.

i have no "Diploma" from "slave academy" but, that makes me no less a slave and that also makes me no worse or better than any other slave or submissive. You are what you are and you do what you have a need inside you to do - that's what makes you a slave or a submissive or a mom or a wife or anything else. Some people are just born to do something and they have such a passion and drive to do it that they don't need any training. Natural born singers or artists or musicians can be very accomplished without any formal training. So, why not a natural born slave, as well? i'm not saying that training is bad and if my Master felt that i needed training in a certain area then that would be great. i love to learn. i'm just saying that to be a slave doesn't always require training.

i also feel that you can be a slave, without being actively owned. In this day of "consensual slavery", it is often up to the slave to seek out an Owner. They just don't hold slave auctions like they used to and no one is out capturing free persons and making them slaves much these days. But, when you know in your soul that you were created to be a slave, what else can you do but to advertise yourself as a slave seeking a Master?

When i was searching for my Master, i was unowned but, i was still a slave. i was a "free slave" in search of an Owner to take me under His control and make me His property. Just because i wasn't owned while i was searching for my Master doesn't mean that i was not a slave. If, for some reason, i should lose this Master (may that never happen) and needed to find another, that wouldn't mean that i am no longer a slave. It would simply mean that i am back to being an unowned slave in search of a Master.

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

A slave generally has more training, and is expected more of, etc. Its not hard to udnerstand. A slave has as much value as anyone else on this planet, just in my case and like those who have earned our titles, we have put more effort into things and we have been rewarded for our hardwork. Considering that on cm the number of [male] tops to [female] bottoms has to be around 12 to 1 {if not higher}; I do think slaves are of value, those who have training are rare, as are Masters/Mistresses who can appreciate a well trained slave; at least one who doesn't have to be babysat or trained from scratch.

A Master/Mitsress can have a slave, a Dominants/Dommes cannot. Dominants/Dommes have submissives; Masters/Mitresses have slaves. What is so hard to understand about that?! Its very simple.

While I agree that the linguistic complement to a slave is either owner, master, or mistress the rest I don't really agree with.

I think what makes a slave is that they are chattel or owned property, as opposed to being a free agent or single. I think if someone is single they are their own independent and autonomous person, which is fine but thats not a slave. I don't think being owned property means that you (you in a generic sort of way, not you slaverosebeauty) have any special training. I think once you get into the quality of submission/slavery is when training would be a factor among other factors (although if its shitty training again, thats a quality issue).

More simply put I think the issue of whether someone is a slave (yes/no they are a slave) is distinct from how good of a slave they are (i.e. quality).

C~

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 39

RE: Rules, protocol, and the whole ball of wax. - 6/4/2007 4:01:56 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11]

k11Are we defined by how many rules we are given to follow? Is the use ,or lack of, protocol a defining factor or basis for being submissive?

Do submissives feel more or less submissive by the number of rules and or protocols laid down to follow?

Personally, I think where people screw up is they are focused on the ideal fantasy relationship and form all these rules, protocols, and yadda yadda tailored to the fantasy and not the relationship.

Its D/S!
It should have rules.
It should have protocols
Doms should be super strict about them
Subs should be spanked with a paddle for breaking them.

The fallacy of the shoulds

I certainly fell into the trap of the shoulds in the beginning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11]
So...how important are rules and protocol to you?

Protocols are important to me when I have something I dont feal like repeating every single day I wake up. I dont have to tell my girl how I like my cofffee every morning because I made a protocols.

Rules are important to me when I need to establish clear structure. If my girl doesnt show up late, I dont need to make a rule saying she needs to be on time. I suppose I could make this arbitary rule and I can feal super dominant because I have a bunch of rules and she can feal super submissive because she has a rule to follow, but the presecense or lack of the rule would really have no effect.

Just like I dont need to make a rule saying "When you drive my car, you will not wreck it!"

Its based on necessity.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 40

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