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leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 12:08:24 PM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		    In tiny Vermont, a movement to leave the troubled Union is slowly gaining steam, and might actually be up for vote soon. Perhaps such an act will finally wake up the federal govt, which has been pulling our taxes but not giving us anything but war in return.  Besides, not having to jump through all the beaurocratic hoops of the U.S. administration will off set the loss of federal grants and make Vermont a haven for all of the rest of the U.S. citizens who feel cheated. I thought I would never say this, but good luck and good bye, Vermont, we will miss you but you will probably be better off.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070604/ap_on_re_us/vermont_secession
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 12:16:18 PM   
agoodboy


Posts: 25
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		A bunch of states tried that once. As I recall, it didn't work out so good.

(in reply to aviinterra)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 12:19:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Worked out great.

For the fucking Hamiltonian Traitors, that is.

In the spring of 1861, the United States ceased to exist, Lincoln appointed "Congressional Representatives' from the secceded states ( Against the Constitution, proving it was no longer valid ) and we've been living under The President's Military Dictatorship ever since.

If that's not the case, explain all the extra-constitutional authority assumed by The President?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to agoodboy)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 12:26:26 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I would not support PA leaving the union.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 12:29:06 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		A perplexing idea- considered 4 counties here considered leaving the commenwealth of PA. At issue was a hazzardous waste dump- to be cited here.

This was during the 90s.

You DONT want to piss off a country boy. the city slickers thought we would be an easy push over.

WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 1:09:11 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		I think we may have a civil war within the next 20 years anyway if the government continues down this path of creating a "North American Union." Already a dozen states have signed a petition against what the feds are doing.

What created the Civil War in the 1800s was the federal government trying to force their policies down the throats of the states. In 1834, President Andrew Jackson nearly created a civil war. He ordered South Carolina to raise their taxes. The governor refused and Jackson, becoming enraged, threatened to send federal soldiers into South Carolina and overthrow the governor. The VP John Calhoon stepped in and negotiated a compromise but it the crisis was the first seed of the Civil War.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 1:45:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's right, we all would have been a whole lot better off if people had just left the poor states alone and allowed slavery to continue.  We would have avoided the Civil War!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What created the Civil War in the 1800s was the federal government trying to force their policies down the throats of the states.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 1:55:13 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's right, we all would have been a whole lot better off if people had just left the poor states alone and allowed slavery to continue.  We would have avoided the Civil War!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What created the Civil War in the 1800s was the federal government trying to force their policies down the throats of the states.



The Civil War was about taxes and state rights, not slavery. Slavery was the moral justification used by the Union. In fact, General Grant wrote in his journal that if the war became over slavery, "I would lay down my sword and fight for the other side." Grant was pro-slavery and he even owned slaves during the war.

Also Lincoln stated many times in writings and in speeches that slavery was not the reason the war was being faught. It was being faught because he wanted the union to reunite. He did not believe America could survive being split like it was.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 2:10:33 PM   
Kurzon


Posts: 44
Joined: 9/15/2006
Status: offline 		The Civil War was no more about slavery than Clinton's Monica-gate was about sex.

The issue at the heart of Southern Secession was the states right to govern themselves.Slavery was just one of many issues, but, being the most controversial it is the item touted by the victors as the terrible reason the poor misguided southerners wanted out, and thus guiding public opinion against the south (even 150 years later) when in fact the Southern States were only following the Constitution, as well as the intent of the Founding Fathers.

In the case of Monica-Gate the issue was lieing under oath, but once agian, the oppision(this time being the Clintons) turned it into a debate over sex to sway public opionion agianst the agressor.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 2:20:57 PM   
Lynae78


Posts: 66
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		wasn't there a group in South Carolina that wanted to seperate from the Union?

(in reply to Kurzon)
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RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 2:21:25 PM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		Grow up people,  no one is leaving the union.  It's a good laugh when the nut balls start throwing those ideas around.  Not gonna happen, move on.

K

(in reply to Kurzon)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 2:30:47 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kurzon

The Civil War was no more about slavery than Clinton's Monica-gate was about sex.

The issue at the heart of Southern Secession was the states right to govern themselves.Slavery was just one of many issues, but, being the most controversial it is the item touted by the victors as the terrible reason the poor misguided southerners wanted out, and thus guiding public opinion against the south (even 150 years later) when in fact the Southern States were only following the Constitution, as well as the intent of the Founding Fathers.

In the case of Monica-Gate the issue was lieing under oath, but once agian, the oppision(this time being the Clintons) turned it into a debate over sex to sway public opionion agianst the agressor.



A history professor I had back in college told me that he thinks if the founders were alive during the Civil War, they would have favored the Confederacy. Specifically Thomas Jefferson was very much against centralized government. Jefferson thought if the federal government has too much power over the states, it will start to mimic a monarchy or totalitarianism.

The Civil War was nothing but a power grab by the federal government. It destroyed the rights of the states and the constitution took a serious blow. According to the 10th amendment, anything not declared in the constitution is supposed to be left up to the states. The federal government has ignored that amendment since day number one.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-Thomas Jefferson

"...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
-US Declaration of Independence

(in reply to Kurzon)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 2:47:42 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's right, we all would have been a whole lot better off if people had just left the poor states alone and allowed slavery to continue. We would have avoided the Civil War!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What created the Civil War in the 1800s was the federal government trying to force their policies down the throats of the states.



Slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War. Freeing ONLY THE SLAVES IN THE REBELLING STATES was a tactic used by Lincoln fairly late in the conflict.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 2:54:01 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

Grow up people,  no one is leaving the union.  It's a good laugh when the nut balls start throwing those ideas around.  Not gonna happen, move on.

K



I was thinking myself that the PTB is not about to allow such a crack in their foundation of power and control anytime soon.

(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 3:16:38 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		As a mere Brit I advise you to stay together , pay your taxes  and kick everybody elses arse.
If you dont I will.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 3:25:07 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

Grow up people,  no one is leaving the union.  It's a good laugh when the nut balls start throwing those ideas around.  Not gonna happen, move on.

K



I should have added that I don't think it's a bad idea. Nor do I think that the creators of such ideas are automatically nutballs.

It's just very naive to believe that the PTB would allow such dreams to become reality.

(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 3:29:35 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		OK, whatever, I'm not getting into that discussion (since we've had it on here more than once), but the fact remains that if the federal government had kept out of the states' business, as you seem to think they should have, slavery would have been allowed to continue in the South.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's right, we all would have been a whole lot better off if people had just left the poor states alone and allowed slavery to continue.  We would have avoided the Civil War!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What created the Civil War in the 1800s was the federal government trying to force their policies down the throats of the states.



The Civil War was about taxes and state rights, not slavery. Slavery was the moral justification used by the Union. In fact, General Grant wrote in his journal that if the war became over slavery, "I would lay down my sword and fight for the other side." Grant was pro-slavery and he even owned slaves during the war.

Also Lincoln stated many times in writings and in speeches that slavery was not the reason the war was being faught. It was being faught because he wanted the union to reunite. He did not believe America could survive being split like it was.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 3:32:09 PM   
Kurzon


Posts: 44
Joined: 9/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynae78

wasn't there a group in South Carolina that wanted to seperate from the Union?

actuality the group you are referring to (if My memory serves Me correctly) was attempting to get all Libertarians to move to South Carolina so as to fill an entire state government and  their federal delegation with Libertarians

(in reply to Lynae78)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 3:35:11 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

OK, whatever, I'm not getting into that discussion (since we've had it on here more than once), but the fact remains that if the federal government had kept out of the states' business, as you seem to think they should have, slavery would have been allowed to continue in the South.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's right, we all would have been a whole lot better off if people had just left the poor states alone and allowed slavery to continue.  We would have avoided the Civil War!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What created the Civil War in the 1800s was the federal government trying to force their policies down the throats of the states.



The Civil War was about taxes and state rights, not slavery. Slavery was the moral justification used by the Union. In fact, General Grant wrote in his journal that if the war became over slavery, "I would lay down my sword and fight for the other side." Grant was pro-slavery and he even owned slaves during the war.

Also Lincoln stated many times in writings and in speeches that slavery was not the reason the war was being faught. It was being faught because he wanted the union to reunite. He did not believe America could survive being split like it was.



That is probably true, at least for the short term. But they could have abolished slavery nationally later on with constitutional amendment or even a Supreme Court decision and not had to kill 600,000 people. The war was a bit more complicated than that.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 3:40:44 PM   
Kurzon


Posts: 44
Joined: 9/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

OK, whatever, I'm not getting into that discussion (since we've had it on here more than once), but the fact remains that if the federal government had kept out of the states' business, as you seem to think they should have, slavery would have been allowed to continue in the South.

it is not that we seam to think that - it is that it was clearly laid out in the Constitution that the states were to have the right to govern themselves. Regardless of how you, me, or joe blow down the street feels, the Original Intent of the Founding Fathers was to have the states govern themselves - and if you did not like the way your states laws were, your choices were to elect new representation or move to a state that did match your views.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 20
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