RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant)

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Suleiman -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 1:22:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros The confusion lies in thinking that "playing" is somehow more frivolous than "work", a "role" less commited than an "identity" - people take their identity seriously, a role is presumed to be more facile, more easily discarded. Thank you dear. I'll admit I was in a cranky mood when I wrote this rant, but just to have someone else explain my point to me better than I have been able to get it across makes it worthwhile. This, I think, is the true heart of my rant. And yes, it is a rant - an opinion loudly and stridently stated in a way that demands tha people pay attention to me. Like I said, I was in a cranky mood when I wrote it. I think there had just been too many damned twuist threads recently and I was sick of "real this" and "real that" and "I'm real, you're a fake" and all that kind of bullshit. I take play very seriously. If I wasn't willing to play, I would never have met my wife. If I wasn't seriously comitted to playtime, I would never have kept her. The thing is, I consider gaming and fandom to be just as much a lifestyle choice as D/S. It gives me a perspective that, as you can see, is not often viewed positively. I see people putting on their fetish gear before going to a party, and I see no difference from cosplayers getting ready for the convention, except that either group would be insulted to have the comparison made. A person says "I am a slave" in much the same way that a gamer will say "I am an Elf." And yes, there are verying levels of hard-core to that statement. The difference is, when a gamer says "I am an Elf" with intensity and fervor, tries to do elfish things all the time, and spends their days speaking like an elf, we all back away slowly and try to find this person professional help. In the leather community, if a person does not put that level of intensity into their role, they are thought of as a bedroom submissive or a wannabe or a fake. In the end, when you pare down all the labels, all the layers of ego, all the self-affixed masks of identity and self-expression, we are all human beings. In the end, we have free will, and we choose to exercise that fact - some times, by choosing to surrender our freedom. It's an important point to make. (edited for pronoun trouble, because I only ever see those typos after I hit send)

slavemaia -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 1:44:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Suleiman Horrified, Master Torm looks at his new concubine and levels an accusing finger at her. "You've been lying to me" he growls. "You're not really a pleasure-slave, you're just an accountant from Detroit!" Okay, I've just read comments on a bunch of different threads that made me want to reiterate the same point over and over again. I keep saying this (and folks keep vehemently disagreeing with me) but, rather than repeat myself until I'm blue in the nail-bed, I'm going to put it all down here. It's all just roleplaying folks. Whether online or in real life, in the bedroom or full-time, closeted or lifestyle, old-guard, new guard, even with whiped cream and sprinkles, it's all just roleplaying a fantasy scenario. This is not a bad thing. Believe me, I love fantasy. I'm the kind of guy Walter Mitty thinks is kind of a space cadet. I love living out my fantasies. It gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morning. It's saved my marriage more than a dozen times in the last decade. Fantasy is great. fantasy is wonderful. Fantasy is also a veneer. a pretty package surrounding something more. People keep getting caught up in a "right way" and a "wrong way", "true love" "true submission" "true dominance" - true bullflop. When you role-play, by definition, you take up a role that you want to play. My wife and I have several established roles, despite being both very switchy in nature. Very often, she takes up the role of breadwinner. I take up the role of homemaker. This is not a question of submission and dominance so much as inclination and ability. Unless I'm scrambling at odd jobs to help pay the rent, I prefer to work at home, focusing on my writing and similar sorts of work. She prefers to go out and pursue a career. I like to cook, and I don't mind cleaning. She couldn't scramble eggs until I showed her how to a couple of years ago. When we got married, she had no idea what to do in the kitchen other than take out the garbage and fix the garbage disposal. By and large, we play our roles, both out of inclination and because it's what we have agreed to do. When she comes home from work, I fix her a drink and put dinner on the table. When guests come over, I prepare a little something for people to eat while she sits in the living room and plays the role of host. We are not our roles however. We have taken up these roles because they work for us and help to keep the household running smoothly. Even so, we are not the roles we play. I have commented frequently on this perspective of mine. A slave is not REALLY a slave. They are a person who has chosen to play the role of a slave. This means, to those gits who take umbrage at a submissive addressing them as an equal, that yes, they are in fact your equals, until such a time as they CHOOSE to relinquish that status with regard to you. This also means that at any point, the slave may decide to reassert their equality. M/s is a relationship. That means you have to relate. The role of master and the role of slave are, for all intents and purposes, meaningless. They are just roles. I have seen too many relationships fall apart because one or both parties mistake the role for the person, and the fantasy for the role. Isn't the old rallying cry of the divorcee "You're not the man I married"? The man is not the role, the role is not the fantasy, and once the honeymon ends, the veneer begins to peel. The same is painfully true for D/s. A person comes into the world of kink with a fantasy in their head. They rummage around for volunteers to help make that fantasy a reality. Everyone takes up certain roles, often facilitated by bits of costuming like collars, and (hopefully) a good time is had by all. Too many people become so fixated on the fantasy in their head, trying to make that fantasy happen just exactly so, and they wind up even more miserable than before. Why? The fantasy is not the role, the role is not the person. Look, folks - in the end, it's all just my opinion, but for the love of mike, try and show a little common sense. Treat your partner as a partner. Talk to them. Pay attention to their wants, their needs, their interests. In the long run, it helps to reinforce the role, because there's something more to your relationship than just a crumbling facade. Your Dominant is not the towering monolith of strength they'd like you to believe them to be. Your Submissive is not the whimpering doormat they pretent to be. Your kinky fucktoy occasionally just wants to snuggle. Just try and act like human beings for a while, okay? I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Well then PLEASE feel free to stop repeating yourself. i don't agree it's just a role, others do - is that really such a difficult thing to grasp?

meticulousgirl -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 2:29:04 PM)
LMAO I'm a bit speachless at the moment so "this slave" will apply later, oh yeah but, that's just my role....in this role play. ~meticulous~ quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs OMG your post is absolutely inspiring, I mean finally a person that knows exactly what is happening in everyones relationship. You must have the powers of a God to know precisely what everyone elses relationships are, above what they know them to be! I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. C~ Note: This was all sarcasm, what I don't understand is why people care so much what everyones relationship is and proving or disproving what their relationships are. I suspect there is a relationship with getting laid and giving a fuck about everyone else.

slavegirljoy -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 3:14:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Suleiman I think there had just been too many damned twuist threads recently and I was sick of "real this" and "real that" and "I'm real, you're a fake" and all that kind of bullshit. We are are real and we are all different and some of us are 'real different'. Just because we aren't the same doesn't mean that some are real and others are fake. We just have different ways of being real. quote: The thing is, I consider gaming and fandom to be just as much a lifestyle choice as D/S. It gives me a perspective that, as you can see, is not often viewed positively. I see people putting on their fetish gear before going to a party, and I see no difference from cosplayers getting ready for the convention, except that either group would be insulted to have the comparison made. A person says "I am a slave" in much the same way that a gamer will say "I am an Elf." And yes, there are verying levels of hard-core to that statement. The difference is, when a gamer says "I am an Elf" with intensity and fervor, tries to do elfish things all the time, and spends their days speaking like an elf, we all back away slowly and try to find this person professional help. In the leather community, if a person does not put that level of intensity into their role, they are thought of as a bedroom submissive or a wannabe or a fake. i don't know about gaming and i don't roleplay. i don't change my persona like i change my clothes and i don't put aside my true identity to act out a part for awhile. i finally just realized that the reason i had felt like a fake, for most of my adult life, and didn't feel like i had a place to belong in this world was because i was a square peg trying to force myself into a round whole and be someone i'm not. i was trying to be the 'strong, independent, self-sufficient, hard-working, single mom with a career' and that's not who i am. That's not my niche. That's not what i was made for. Oh, sure, i could 'play the part' and i did a fine job of fooling most people into believing that's who i was but, i couldn't fool myself and i was miserably frustrated, sad and lonely, even though i had friends and had some nice, long term D/s relationships. There was always the feeling that i wasn't able to be myself no matter what i did or who i was with. Then, i realized that what i needed to be fulfilled and content and complete was to be fully owned by a Man who i could serve with honor and respect and faithfulness. So, i gave up the facade of being a 'free and independent woman' and searched for and found the Master i needed to belong to. i don't roleplay a slave. i am the slave of Master David. That's who i am. And, i'm real. i'm just as real as you and anyone else, even though we are all different. Oh, and there isn't anything wrong with being a 'bedroom submissive' or a 'domestic slave' or a 'kink-only-on-every-other-weekend-slave'. They are real, too. They are just different types of slaves and submissives. slave joy Owned property of Master David

laurell3 -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 4:37:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Suleiman quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros The confusion lies in thinking that "playing" is somehow more frivolous than "work", a "role" less commited than an "identity" - people take their identity seriously, a role is presumed to be more facile, more easily discarded. Thank you dear. I'll admit I was in a cranky mood when I wrote this rant, but just to have someone else explain my point to me better than I have been able to get it across makes it worthwhile. This, I think, is the true heart of my rant. And yes, it is a rant - an opinion loudly and stridently stated in a way that demands tha people pay attention to me. Like I said, I was in a cranky mood when I wrote it. I think there had just been too many damned twuist threads recently and I was sick of "real this" and "real that" and "I'm real, you're a fake" and all that kind of bullshit. I take play very seriously. If I wasn't willing to play, I would never have met my wife. If I wasn't seriously comitted to playtime, I would never have kept her. The thing is, I consider gaming and fandom to be just as much a lifestyle choice as D/S. It gives me a perspective that, as you can see, is not often viewed positively. I see people putting on their fetish gear before going to a party, and I see no difference from cosplayers getting ready for the convention, except that either group would be insulted to have the comparison made. A person says "I am a slave" in much the same way that a gamer will say "I am an Elf." And yes, there are verying levels of hard-core to that statement. The difference is, when a gamer says "I am an Elf" with intensity and fervor, tries to do elfish things all the time, and spends their days speaking like an elf, we all back away slowly and try to find this person professional help. In the leather community, if a person does not put that level of intensity into their role, they are thought of as a bedroom submissive or a wannabe or a fake. In the end, when you pare down all the labels, all the layers of ego, all the self-affixed masks of identity and self-expression, we are all human beings. In the end, we have free will, and we choose to exercise that fact - some times, by choosing to surrender our freedom. It's an important point to make. (edited for pronoun trouble, because I only ever see those typos after I hit send) This highlighted paragraph I believe explains your position better than saying it's all roleplaying and I agree completely. Too often we see people caught up in the roles and not looking at the person. We are people first. Expecting someone to only have emotions, feelings, thoughts, goals and actions in adherence to a dogmatic role leads to issues quite often and I agree it's frustrating to see that over and over again here.

masterrich175 -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 5:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Too often we see people caught up in the roles and not looking at the person. We are people first. Expecting someone to only have emotions, feelings, thoughts, goals and actions in adherence to a dogmatic role leads to issues quite often and I agree it's frustrating to see that over and over again here. Well said. Adherance to dogma can lead to frustration.

MiladyElaine -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 6:21:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Nice rant overall, what a rant should be really. But I'm not sure why the insistence that it's role play? Vanillas don't role play when they work together to decide who will be incharge of what or share authority. And masters and slaves don't role play when they decide one will have authority and the other won't. Role play is great fun, hot, delicious and more- but that doesn't mean who we are in a relationship is role play. It's one of the great top ten debates in ds though :) I totally agree!

moonvine -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/4/2008 10:36:03 PM)
Interesting thread. If I have any sort of "lifestyle" it is the lifestyle of a cat rescuer. I identify much more strongly with other cat rescuers and feel I have more in common with them than with people who happen to be into BDSM. If any cat rescuer sees a cat by the side of the road they are going to stop to pick it up, if we find an unaltered cat we are likely to take it in to get it altered, etc, so I kind of know from the beginning we have certain fundamental things in common, while I have no more in common with someone who practices Gor than I do with ..I dunno, a Republican or something. There's as many ways to "do" BDSM as there are people who do it, I suppose. I don't necessarily feel any kind of kinship with someone else who happens to like the same things sexually I do, and have spent 20 years wondering why I am supposed to. (Well, not continuously wondering, just on occasion).

DominaSmartass -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 7:52:30 AM)
"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players" Very true, as many others have said, our entire lives are comprised of different roles that we play. I, for one, pretend to be this incredibly boring straight woman most of the time. I don't, however, believe that most of us are "just roleplaying" when we engage in a relationship with a power exchange dynamic. I think it's more complicated than that. Master and slave may be the best words that some can find to describe what they do, or may be their words of choice, but what they are is extremely different than masters and slaves in any other (non-kinky) sense of the word - for one reason alone: consent. People may very well live this lifestyle in complete slavery that is equivalent to being a piece of owned meat but they chose to get there and conceivably could choose to leave. I very much believe that there are people who are in no way pretending to be a "master" or "slave" but I think that those words are so inaccurate and misconstrued due to larger social and historical connotations that anyone who tries to take them literally will inevitably be seen as role-playing (or delusional) by outsiders. Suleiman - what you and your wife have sounds very nice. AND very real, not role playing at all to me. Fantasy and role play are one thing, but living out through actions what makes you happy inside is IMO, not role playing. Again, words are the problem I think. A consensual slave has no more in common with a real slave (in the historical context) than the man on the moon. Slavery was never something that ethnic groups sought out en masse because it fulfilled them spiritually, sexually, physically, or emotionally. At best, they entered into it in exchange for something their lives depended on like passage across an ocean; at worst, they were violently ripped from their families or tribes and beaten into submission so that they could work for their owner's financial gain. The mere concept that a slave can choose his or her own master and then leave if/when that relationship isn't working and go find a new master is laughable. Obviously slaves in BDSM sense are not slaves as the word means in standard English and I think this huge difference in what is implied when a BDSMer says slave vs. what we think of when we hear "slave" in everyday life is where we do have to admit that in an M/s relationship slaves are not slaves, and in that sense I think I see where you're coming from with "it's all just role playing." Ugh, this is making me nuts, I hope someone understands what I'm getting at here cause I can't explain it much better. *Note: I replied to this after reading the OP and a couple of responses, so excuse me if the thread has gone on for 10 more pages in a different direction. I do realize that there is a likelyhood of this and don't need someone to post and tell me such. You're on a forum - people read things at different times - get over it. (if you don't know what I'm talking about this does not apply to you.)

ELUSIVE1 -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 8:01:02 AM)
interesting watching this debate while sitting on the fence enjoying both sides

salilus -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 8:04:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Suleiman It's all just roleplaying folks. Whether online or in real life, in the bedroom or full-time, closeted or lifestyle, old-guard, new guard, even with whiped cream and sprinkles, it's all just roleplaying a fantasy scenario. Very well. I counter your One True Wayism with a +2 More Slavey Than Thou spell followed by a Cause My Master Said So level three spew. sweeps my cape around me and saunters off into the woods, with my staff and pointy ears

Amaros -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 8:48:37 AM)
There was pretty long thread on terminology a year or so ago DSA, and yes, consent is central to the whole thing - in fact you might say that non-con is the only taboo, which ethically, includes preserving the ability to make other choices down the line. I've tried to avoid using the word "slave", simply because of the confusion it generates when someone unfamiliar with the idom hears it, but it's, ya know, hot.

DominaSmartass -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 11:30:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros There was pretty long thread on terminology a year or so ago DSA, and yes, consent is central to the whole thing - in fact you might say that non-con is the only taboo, which ethically, includes preserving the ability to make other choices down the line. I've tried to avoid using the word "slave", simply because of the confusion it generates when unfamiliar with the idom hears it, but it's, ya know, hot. Hell, it causes just as much confusion with people who are familiar! We can't come to one standard definition of these words and I don't want to get into a debate about what words we use, should use, shouldn't use. But I do give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they comprehend that our meaning for slave is pretty far from the dictionary definition --and thus, those who say they are slaves are aware that they only are as far as they choose to be such and thus not really a "slave" at all. Those who go down that road of rendering someone completely enslaved through the points outlined by BrutalMasterOne, may be as close as you can come to literally owning someone, but I personally don't find it ethical to take away someone's ability to leave if they were to so choose. If you create a co-dependant partner who isn't able to think on their own if it involves going against you, then yes I'll agree you've got someone enslaved. I know I'm not the only one out there who would prefer someone submit to me in every moment out of wanting to and not out of my having mad brainwashing skills. Then again, if they are that brainwashed then chances are they will fight you tooth and nail arguing that they do want to submit, no matter what. So in the end I guess it's a moot point. Oh, the rambling...

Amaros -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 8:52:09 PM)
There's a special on CNN right now about human trafficking - it raises a lot of ethical issues w/respect to bandying the word about casually and thereby inadvertently trivializing it. I think I like the word "Thrall", it sounds a lot nobler, and implies devotion rather than forced servitude to my ear, "enthralled" - any takers?

Rover -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/5/2008 9:19:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros I think I like the word "Thrall", it sounds a lot nobler, and implies devotion rather than forced servitude to my ear, "enthralled" - any takers? I'm sure there would be some takers, just as there are those who seriously desire to feel "forced". There's plenty of fantasy woven into people's choice of terms... more than I care to employ, but it's a personal choice. I do a presentation on "Fantasy In The Lifestyle" and feel that it has a legitimate, illegitimate and pathological relationship within BDSM. Legitimate in the fact that everyone employs it on a personal level to enhance fulfillment and gratification... illegitimate in that it can be portrayed as something it's not... namely, fantasy portrayed as reality (or in other terms, a lie)... and pathological in those who cannot tell the difference between the two (or maybe they are so adept at lying that they convince themselves?). John

sharainks -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/6/2008 6:34:39 AM)
I tend to believe that in each situation that we present ourselves in we are in a role. I don't go see my aged mother in the nursing home and act the same as I do at work, at home, or at church. We each have a variety of roles in life and while I'm not sure I would call how we act in each of them "roleplaying" most of us would have to admit that we act somewhat differently depending on where we are at and our purpose for being there. I doubt that many folks sit around in their underwear and pass gas and scratch their private parts at work. I agree with the OP that WIITWD could stand a lot more relationship building and recognition of each persons contribution to the relationship. I also agree with him in that submission, slavery, dominance, etc can end very quickly when the person in that role decides that they aren't going to fulfill that role in the relationship anymore. Those things don't make anyone less "real" in any of those roles. Rather the differences are a part of what makes up the total package of who they are. One of the shortcomings I see in this lifestyle is a tendency to focus on one aspect above all others and then be unpleasantly surprised when the "whole package" finally shows up.

Leatherist -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/6/2008 8:55:21 AM)
I think focusing on roles denies the reality of the individuals involved. Objectification at it's worst.

DominaSmartass -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/6/2008 9:45:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros There's a special on CNN right now about human trafficking - it raises a lot of ethical issues w/respect to bandying the word about casually and thereby inadvertently trivializing it. I think I like the word "Thrall", it sounds a lot nobler, and implies devotion rather than forced servitude to my ear, "enthralled" - any takers? That's SO funny. I was watching that very special last night and having the same feelings you were about it regarding our use of "slave."

Padriag -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/6/2008 11:39:18 AM)
So much fuss over what other people do and say. So much concern over how others identify and label themselves. Amusing.

Amaros -> RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) (1/8/2008 11:47:35 AM)
We can't escape the fact that we're basically herd animals, Padriag, we're a social species, and there are legal issues involved, and we tend to assign meaning to symbols, words are symbols, and institutions tend to treat people as catagorical abstractions en masse: it is not in my self interest to be associated with illegal and unethical activity, and I don't care to pay the price for someone elses lack of compunction through a mistake of association. I think most people can make the distinction between consensual and non-consensual on an informal basis even if you have to explain it to them, but it both raises and clouds the issue of consent with respect to a more general audience: i.e., it'll save me some of that time explaining that I'm not the one they should be concerned about - i.e., some will not immediately percieve the difference, and since those other ones happen to be desperate and heavily armed, it makes me a potentially easier target for any political haymaking. I'm not real sweaty about it, but it's a thing to be aware of.

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