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Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 6:23:16 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		These questions are inspired by the Ladies...and gentlemen? thread.

With respect to chivalry, what do women consider to be the equivalent lady-like behavior?

Chivarly is a gesture of regard. How do women convey similar gestures to men?

Please feel welcome to answer in the context of BDSM, outside BDSM, or both.

Cheers,

Sea
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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 7:32:20 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		I never spit My tobacco in the street, I don't whistle at the opera and I don't park My gum behind My ear---ok ok I'm frisky this evening---
 
That is a hard question to answer, because I am what I am--and I do think I am all Lady, until the sun sets.

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 7:47:16 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

These questions are inspired by the Ladies...and gentlemen? thread.

With respect to chivalry, what do women consider to be the equivalent lady-like behavior?

Chivarly is a gesture of regard. How do women convey similar gestures to men?

Please feel welcome to answer in the context of BDSM, outside BDSM, or both.

Cheers,

Sea


A very interesting way to turn that around sea. Nice thread.

Like I said in the other thread...I think it's more a concept of good manners and common courtesy than anything else with a healthy dose of Etiquette on top. For me chivalry isn't formal per se, of course I tend to be far more formal than most of the people I know due to my upbringing, so going by my standards it is difficult to apply. I don't see chivalry as simply a male behavior either. It's a human behavior by either gender.

As I said in the other thread I open doors for others, allow others to go ahead of me in line if they only have a couple items and I have far more, I give up my seat to someone, which are all simply behaviors that simply show good manners or normal etiquette. I was raised to act like a lady and to expect to be treated as such at all times.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:19:58 PM   
pixelslave


Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

A very interesting way to turn that around sea. Nice thread.

Like I said in the other thread...I think it's more a concept of good manners and common courtesy than anything else with a healthy dose of Etiquette on top. For me chivalry isn't formal per se, of course I tend to be far more formal than most of the people I know due to my upbringing, so going by my standards it is difficult to apply. I don't see chivalry as simply a male behavior either. It's a human behavior by either gender.

As I said in the other thread I open doors for others, allow others to go ahead of me in line if they only have a couple items and I have far more, I give up my seat to someone, which are all simply behaviors that simply show good manners or normal etiquette. I was raised to act like a lady and to expect to be treated as such at all times.


What you've described is not at all chivalry, although may be considered a part of the behavior that could be expected of one who lives a chivalrous life.  In a man, what you've described would be considered "gentlemanly" behavior, or as you've also stated, a show of good manners. 
 
Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century and earlier (generally the time period of the crusades are where records exist that I've personally read).  It is far more than a matter of good manners.
 
 - pixel

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Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:30:43 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I say thank you and smile when a male holds a door open for me.  I don't think most males who do hold a door open or offer a seat to a woman necessarily want the favor returned ("Here you held the door open for me, now allow me to do the same"). 
 
I will admit there is a double standard with regards to chivalry,  but the males who act in such a way seem to like to do it. I like to receive it... sounds fair to me.  Originally, chivalrous behavior included a knightly duty to observe gentleness, graciousness and protection towards women, without expected reciprocation.  Why mess with history.

I figure if I am polite and respectful to people in general (by the way, I do always hold the door open for a stroller or handicapped or elderly person in need regardless of gender ), but I don't find the need to show the male gender any special treatment over women... until I get to know them, then he may benefit from differential treatment.

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:33:45 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
I never spit My tobacco in the street, I don't whistle at the opera and I don't park My gum behind My ear


Yes, but neither does a gentlemen in the context we consider ;-)

Thank you for your post.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:37:36 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
With respect to chivalry, what do women consider to be the equivalent lady-like behavior?


No cursing, dress appropratly for the occassion/those around in attendance. Smile. Keep your legs closed. No vulgarity. Says 'please' and 'thank you.'

NOW.. being a slave, my partner can request that i keep my legs open as a sign of respect to him, I have figured out how to do that AND stay lady-like. It took work, but I did figure it out. Cross the ankles and leave a little bit of room between the knees, and put your hands in your lap, or not.

quote:


Chivarly is a gesture of regard. How do women convey similar gestures to men?


I do, I say 'thank you' when my door is opened. Little things, I smile, I don't take it for granted.

My son opens doors for me as mcuha s he can by HIS choice, I make sure I say 'thank you' and enter or get in the car as quickly as I can so he can close the door. He beams from ear to ear.

I was raised to be a 'lady.' Maners, cooking, cleaning, etc. I just kinda 'know' how to be a lady, not all my behaviours at times are very lady like, but, I do what I can. Its who I am.

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:38:37 PM   
Misstoyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

... I don't see chivalry as simply a male behavior either. It's a human behavior by either gender...



What you've described is not at all chivalry, although may be considered a part of the behavior that could be expected of one who lives a chivalrous life.  In a man, what you've described would be considered "gentlemanly" behavior, or as you've also stated, a show of good manners. 




Regardless, even calling it "gentlemanly" behavior I agree with Ms Jo. I'm a perfect gentleman (out in public anyway . )

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:42:04 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century and earlier (generally the time period of the crusades are where records exist that I've personally read).  It is far more than a matter of good manners.

 
Interesting...so are you saying that a female cannot act in a chivalrous manner?



_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to pixelslave)
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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:43:47 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck
I think it's more a concept of good manners and common courtesy than anything else with a healthy dose of Etiquette on top.


Thank you for your comments. I agree that much of the acts we have discussed in the other thread amount to kind gestures, and kindness exists in both sexes. As I consider examples of such behavior especially in the context of a romantic relationship, I can more easily come up with examples of what men do for women. My perspective, of course, is skewed because I think of what I do as a man. Therefore, I extend this question to women. The thread is meant to invite introspection and contemplation and a few other words like that ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 8:48:08 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck
I think it's more a concept of good manners and common courtesy than anything else with a healthy dose of Etiquette on top.


Thank you for your comments. I agree that much of the acts we have discussed in the other thread amount to kind gestures, and kindness exists in both sexes. As I consider examples of such behavior especially in the context of a romantic relationship, I can more easily come up with examples of what men do for women. My perspective, of course, is skewed because I think of what I do as a man. Therefore, I extend this question to women. The thread is meant to invite introspection and contemplation and a few other words like that ;-)

Cheers,

Sea


It has most definitely been food for thought sea. I find myself sitting here contemplating exactly that.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 9:27:05 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave
Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century


Your post and google helped me learn a bit more about the origins of the word chivalry ;-) Sure, the word originally described a code of behavior associated with knights and had a broader scope. While most definitions today refer to this code, here is one I found:

quote:


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source



chiv·al·ry       (shĭv'əl-rē)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   pl. chiv·al·ries
  • The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.

  • The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
  • A manifestation of any of these qualities.

    1. A group of knights or gallant gentlemen.



        1. Per definition b, a manifestation of courtesy is regarded as chivalry. And common use today describes courteous behavior as chivalry--a man opening a car door for a woman, which is a courtesy, is said to be chivalrous. With my encounters with and impression about the word, it is not commonly used to describe bravery or dexterity with arms as done by the original and some contemporary dictionary definitions.

        In any case, I think the point is to calibrate terminology. What we are discussing is courteous behavior, and gestures of kindness and regard. So we can say the question is what courteous behaviors or gestures of kindness and regard do women extend to men in the same spirit as men extend these gestures to women?

        Thanks for your post.

        Cheers,

        Sea

        < Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/6/2007 9:28:00 PM >

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        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 9:30:10 PM   
        DiurnalVampire


        Posts: 8125
        Joined: 1/19/2006
        From: Nashville, TN
        Status: offline         		I do not expect my boys to be gentlemen, I know them too well for that. I will not act like a Lady, I enjoy myself too much for that.  Expecting them to live up to an ideal when I dont particularly choose to live up to my end of it is a double standard I dont want to bother with.

        My 2 sleepy cents
        DV 

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        VampiresLair

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        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 9:46:37 PM   
        Einzelganger


        Posts: 221
        Joined: 4/8/2007
        From: Orlando, FL
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MHOO314

        I never spit My tobacco in the street, I don't whistle at the opera and I don't park My gum behind My ear---ok ok I'm frisky this evening---
         
        That is a hard question to answer, because I am what I am--and I do think I am all Lady, until the sun sets.


        Damn, you beat me to it...I was going to say, it's not really considered 'ladylike' to shout 'FREEBIRD!' between pieces and after the applause, at an opera...

        -Einzelgänger

        (in reply to MHOO314)
        Profile   Post #: 14
        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 9:47:13 PM   
        MzMia


        Posts: 5333
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        Status: offline         		Come sit next to me on the couch, DV.
        When I am good I am bad, when I am bad, I am better.

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        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 9:51:12 PM   
        undergroundsea


        Posts: 2400
        Joined: 6/27/2004
        From: Austin, TX
        Status: offline         		Gentlemen, do you have any examples about courteous behavior or a gesture of regard you have recieved from a woman? And for sake of discussion, we might consider this in and outside BDSM roles as needed.

        Here is one I have seen from women. Google is helping me with all kinds of things today. I was trying to remember which movie it was in which an old man gives a boy a dating tip, and here it is.

        quote:


        From Chazz Palmentieri's "A Bronx Tale":
        "Alright, listen to me. You pull up right where she lives, right? Before you get outta the car, you lock both doors. Then, get outta the car, you walk over to her. You bring her over to the car. Dig out the key, put it in the lock and open the door for her. Then you let her get in. Then you close the door. Then you walk around the back of the car and look through the rear window. If she doesn't reach over and lift up that button so that you can get in: dump her."
        "Just like that?"

        "Listen to me, kid. If she doesn't reach over and lift up that button so that you can get in, that means she's a selfish broad and all you're seeing is the tip of the iceberg. You dump her and you dump her fast."


        I have come across the courteous unlocking (or attempt to do so since cars often have power locks now) many times. I wonder what role Bronx Tale had in making this behavior more common ;-)

        And here is an example of one that I remember. I dated a gal in college and we returned to my place after having gone out. We both had to go to the restsroom and I invited her to go first. When I went after her, she had put the seat up! I had never had anyone do that before because usually it is considered polite to leave the seat down, or to close the lid. Still, I noticed and appreciated that gesture.

        Cheers,

        Sea

        (in reply to undergroundsea)
        Profile   Post #: 16
        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 10:14:12 PM   
        undergroundsea


        Posts: 2400
        Joined: 6/27/2004
        From: Austin, TX
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
        I say thank you and smile when a male holds a door open for me.  I don't think most males who do hold a door open or offer a seat to a woman necessarily want the favor returned ("Here you held the door open for me, now allow me to do the same").


        Sure, a thank and a smile is polite and I do the same when someone holds the door open for me. The types of gesture I am thinking of are those that demonstrate some form of initiative to convey a gesture of regard.

        I agree that most men who perform a chivalrous act do not want the same done in turn. For instance, I am happy to assume responsibility for opening doors without taking turns. However, I think the regard can be conveyed through some other gesture. The point I am bringing to focus in not a barter or an exchange of acts on a quid pro quo basis, but that how regard or gestures of regard can flow in both directions.  

        quote:

        I will admit there is a double standard with regards to chivalry,  but the males who act in such a way seem to like to do it. I like to receive it... sounds fair to me.  Originally, chivalrous behavior included a knightly duty to observe gentleness, graciousness and protection towards women, without expected reciprocation.  Why mess with history.


        Sure, men like to do it and women like to receive it. And chivalrous behavior is done without expectation of, at least, the same behavior in turn. I agree that most men would prefer to open doors for women and not want it the other way around. However, the point is not the specific act, but the act of conveying regard. Sure, the act may be done without reciprocation. Would it not be nice if a gesture of kindness was returned (not necessarily at the same time but in general)? I don't think most men would mind if the regard (versus the specific act) was reciprocated. They might not want it in the same form they give it (opening doors) but I think in general people appreciate a gesture of kindness or regard. If there is a double standard, why is it there, and what if it was not there?

        Is whatever difference there might be driven by the mismatch in power of sensuality and attraction?

        As for why mess with history, I doubt this flow of gestures has been completely one sided. If we say that it was for sake of discussion, I think that that one thing was done in a particular way in the past is not a compelling justification for status quo.

        Thank you for your post.

        Cheers,

        Sea

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        Profile   Post #: 17
        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 10:31:20 PM   
        LadyHeart


        Posts: 561
        Joined: 5/7/2007
        Status: offline         		The purpose behind "manners" is to help make people feel comfortable, in the surety that they know how to behave. So I define ladylike behaviour as behaviour which helps to put others at their ease. I am reminded of a story about Queen Elizabeth. She was at a state banquet when the man sitting beside her picked up his chicken drumstick and started to bite into it. He suddenly realized that it was the wrong thing to do, and started looking uncomfortable. Without missing a beat, the Queen picked up her chicken leg and bit into as well. That is what I call ladylike behaviour.
        :))
        LH

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        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 10:53:24 PM   
        undergroundsea


        Posts: 2400
        Joined: 6/27/2004
        From: Austin, TX
        Status: offline
        quote:

        ORIGINAL: LadyHeart
        I am reminded of a story about Queen Elizabeth. She was at a state banquet when the man sitting beside her picked up his chicken drumstick and started to bite into it. He suddenly realized that it was the wrong thing to do, and started looking uncomfortable. Without missing a beat, the Queen picked up her chicken leg and bit into as well. That is what I call ladylike behaviour.


        Oh, I think I remember hearing about that! That happened when she came here two hundred years ago*, right? ;-)

        That was an interesting story. Thank you for sharing it.

        * Reference to a Bush slip during the recent visit by The Queen.

        Cheers,

        Sea

        (in reply to LadyHeart)
        Profile   Post #: 19
        RE: Ladies and....ladies? - 6/6/2007 11:48:18 PM   
        DominaSmartass


        Posts: 961
        Joined: 1/12/2006
        From: This month? Maryland
        Status: offline         		I actually do not place any value on acting "like a lady" personally. I don't consider myself a lady nor do I really want to be perceived as one. For those that don't know me personally this might seem odd, but it's true. To steal a great line from one of my closest friends, who goes by "Lady Caro" online and often gets called that in real life as well..."I am not now, nor have I ever been 'a lady.' The only reason I'm 'Lady Caro" is because aol wouldn't let me have a 4 letter screen name."  I love it and it's so true for me as well. They only reason I'm DominaSmartass is because aol probably wouldn't have let met use the screen name "smartass."  I don't know if there are others out there but speaking for myself, being a person who acts with dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character are much more important than any bullshit lady-like gestures.  Granted, I'm not a lady anyway, so I guess it wouldn't apply ;)  

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        (in reply to undergroundsea)
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