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I don't know if there are others out there but speaking for myself, being a person who acts with dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character are much more important than any bullshit lady-like gestures.

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ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

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Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century and earlier (generally the time period of the crusades are where records exist that I've personally read).  It is far more than a matter of good manners.

 
Interesting...so are you saying that a female cannot act in a chivalrous manner?

No, not at all Ms Jo, in fact if I'm not mistaken, history shows there were a great number of women who were members of several of the numerous chivalric orders of which I'm familiar with:  in particular The Order of the Knights Templar and The Knights of Malta, both of which dedicated themselves to protecting those making pilgrimages to the Holy Lands as well as healing those who had been injured fighting in the Holy Wars. 

I studied their codes of conduct and rites of membership when I was much younger (late teens and early 20's), learning a great deal in the process.  This period of study helped me form my beliefs regarding my own values and conduct; integrating codes of Chivalry into my belief system and the personal standards to which I hold myself to.   

I'm not certain the organization even still exists at this time.  If so, it is barely a shell of what it was at the time I was a member, as I know it and the appendent organizations it rose from greatly declined in the decade and a half that followed.  At 25 one reaches the age of majority, becoming time for them to move on; leaving it to those younger to take their place of leadership.  I have lost track of it as my friends who remained active as advisors have either since passed-on (including my best friend) or gone their seperate ways.  I have relocated numerous times since then, which includes moves to 2 different states on my own journey through life.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Sure, a thank and a smile is polite and I do the same when someone holds the door open for me. The types of gesture I am thinking of are those that demonstrate some form of initiative to convey a gesture of regard.

I agree that most men who perform a chivalrous act do not want the same done in turn. For instance, I am happy to assume responsibility for opening doors without taking turns. However, I think the regard can be conveyed through some other gesture. The point I am bringing to focus in not a barter or an exchange of acts on a quid pro quo basis, but that how regard or gestures of regard can flow in both directions.  

Sure, men like to do it and women like to receive it. And chivalrous behavior is done without expectation of, at least, the same behavior in turn. I agree that most men would prefer to open doors for women and not want it the other way around. However, the point is not the specific act, but the act of conveying regard. Sure, the act may be done without reciprocation. Would it not be nice if a gesture of kindness was returned (not necessarily at the same time but in general)? I don't think most men would mind if the regard (versus the specific act) was reciprocated. They might not want it in the same form they give it (opening doors) but I think in general people appreciate a gesture of kindness or regard. If there is a double standard, why is it there, and what if it was not there?

Is whatever difference there might be driven by the mismatch in power of sensuality and attraction?

As for why mess with history, I doubt this flow of gestures has been completely one sided. If we say that it was for sake of discussion, I think that that one thing was done in a particular way in the past is not a compelling justification for status quo.

Thank you for your post.

Cheers,

Sea

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

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ORIGINAL: pixelslave
Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century

Your post and google helped me learn a bit more about the origins of the word chivalry ;-) Sure, the word originally described a code of behavior associated with knights and had a broader scope. While most definitions today refer to this code, here is one I found:

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American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source



chiv·al·ry       (shĭv'əl-rē)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   pl. chiv·al·ries

The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.

The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.

A manifestation of any of these qualities.

A group of knights or gallant gentlemen.

Per definition b, a manifestation of courtesy is regarded as chivalry. And common use today describes courteous behavior as chivalry--a man opening a car door for a woman, which is a courtesy, is said to be chivalrous. With my encounters with and impression about the word, it is not commonly used to describe bravery or dexterity with arms as done by the original and some contemporary dictionary definitions.

In any case, I think the point is to calibrate terminology. What we are discussing is courteous behavior, and gestures of kindness and regard. So we can say the question is what courteous behaviors or gestures of kindness and regard do women extend to men in the same spirit as men extend these gestures to women?

No problem for me Sea if you want to talk about courtesy.  Before doing so I'd just like to make the point that under definition b, courtesy is only one quality associated with or idealized by Knighthood and the Chivalry that went along with it.  Thus, I don't equate the two as being one and the same.  There was more on that in my response to Ms Jo.  However, I'm more than willing to talk about courtesy I do think it is an important quality in both sexes.

As to receiving courtesy from women, I've been fortunate to have received that from my Mistress in that she was either taught it or learned those courtesies herself as well (I believe the former to be the case).  When I carry packages for her and have my hands full, although I'd normally open doors for her, being practical herself, instead she shows me courtesy by opening them for me instead.   

Another example would be that I've had two back surgeries related to an auto accident, and when helping her unload her vehicle, she naturally chooses to grab the heaviest bag (the one she likes to pack everything in until it's stuffed solid) so as not to overstress my back (not that I'm an invalid or anything like that), and I truly appreciate that as I do want to help, but it's also not worth the risk to have me pick up things that she's overloaded of her own accord and she recognizes that.  To me that's another gesture of being courteous, not to mention protecting her property so she doesn't spoil our time together should I happen to strain my back.

So there's two examples I can personally think of.  Another is the kind of things she does during aftercare, such as handing me or refilling my water, wiping me down with a fresh washcloth, etc.  I've never had the kind of tender aftercare before in the gentle, loving and caring way such as she provides.

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ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
I smile and engage in  flirty conversations with the male gender and not the female gender.

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I think that another way woman offer an extra helping of respect toward the male gender is that males can take a certain comfort in knowing that a woman will often offer her built-in nurturing, care-taking feature if she notices a male in distress.  It's not an everyday exhibition (like holding a door), but it's in the air... it's there.  

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ORIGINAL: pixelslave

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ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
I smile and engage in  flirty conversations with the male gender and not the female gender.

Is that not a double standard as well?  A man who is flirty can be consider non-gentlemanly in doing so, inappropriate in his behavior, if not downright rude, depending on the circumstances and the woman involved.
 

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I think that another way woman offer an extra helping of respect toward the male gender is that males can take a certain comfort in knowing that a woman will often offer her built-in nurturing, care-taking feature if she notices a male in distress.  It's not an everyday exhibition (like holding a door), but it's in the air... it's there.  

I suspect you may have something specific in mind with this comment.  Would you perhaps mind elaborating?  Many men are often willing to come to the aid of someone they see who appears to be in distress.  Perhaps you may be referring to situations involving the liklihood of a of a male being willing to accept emotional assistance in times of distress from a nurturing woman where he might not from accept it from another male who was offering the same nurturing kind of willingness to listen and try to be of help?
 
 - pixel

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ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I say thank you and smile when a male holds a door open for me.  I don't think most males who do hold a door open or offer a seat to a woman necessarily want the favor returned ("Here you held the door open for me, now allow me to do the same").  (or cry about it becoz they dont feel special
 
I will admit there is a double standard with regards to chivalry,  but the males who act in such a way seem to like to do it. (except the ones that already cant accept there inferiorityI like to receive it... sounds fair to me.  Originally, chivalrous behavior included a knightly duty to observe gentleness, graciousness and protection towards women, without expected reciprocation.  Why mess with history.

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ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
Genders have differences... and what the genders expect and find appropriate in each other's genders are different as well.  I don't think a double standard is necessarily bad in many respects. Males are more likely to welcome a flirty advance from women, women are more likely to find it inappropriate... though not always.

Yes, and that's what I perceived as being a negative example example of a double-standard as I viewed it.  Clearly, it's normally okay for a woman to flirt with a man in a non-business setting, but less acceptable when the roles are reversed.

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Isn't it a double standard for the males who open a door for just women, carry her packages, etc.... to not offer the same courtesy for all the males he encounters as well?

If that were the case, I'd agree.  If men are close behind me, I tend to stand and hold the door open for them, so it's not a situation that I can relate to.  If they seem to be struggling with their packages, yes I'll often offer to help if I don't have packages of my own.  Do I do it all the time, probably not.  As for most of the time, I'd have to say yes; but then I was also a Boy Scout too!  LOL!  All I can really say is that's just me.  I can't speak for others and clearly it's not common in many places.

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I think one of the biggest problems with 'double-standards' is that they are acknowledged as a bad thing.  Some just 'are' because there are known and natural differences between genders... and sometimes it's just ok.

From the examples you gave, I can readily see your point which was why I asked for them.  After considering them, I'd likely agree.  At the same time, I'd also have to say that it's probably more a case of social conditioning on the part of the recipient than that of the giver; kind of a shame in my opinion that people will be picky (predjudiced perhaps?) about whom they are willing to accept help or a type of caring & courtesy from. 

Thank you for elaborating further.

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ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston

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I don't know if there are others out there but speaking for myself, being a person who acts with dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character are much more important than any bullshit lady-like gestures.

how is acting with "dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character" NOT being a lady?

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ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I never spit My tobacco in the street, I don't whistle at the opera and I don't park My gum behind My ear---ok ok I'm frisky this evening---
 
That is a hard question to answer, because I am what I am--and I do think I am all Lady, until the sun sets.

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ORIGINAL: pixelslave


  Clearly, it's normally okay for a woman to flirt with a man in a non-business setting, but less acceptable when the roles are reversed.
 

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ORIGINAL: GuidingLite