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Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 7:50:16 PM   
Ghostfalcon


Posts: 7
Joined: 10/31/2005
Status: offline 		I have quite a few rl friends who have had unsuccessful BDSM relationships whereby the trust issue has been compromised not by physical action but by finance. They have been left in debt, out of home and a number of other horror stories. As a result I've decided to post a message on things that are a good idea if you are involved in a BDSM or Poly relationship relating to finance. I am specifically referring to long-term relationships not play relationships.

Financial Honesty is a key component of almost every relationship. It is also the hardest part. As a relationship develops sexual honesty is far easier for many than financial honesty however before considering moving in with someone have a financial discussion. This discussion should consist of:

a) Current and Long-term Debts
Debt is not necessarily bad  - everyone has reasons for debt, some could be college, some could be from failed relationships, some could be learning life's lessons, some could be from financial hardships. The reason is not necessarily important - dishonesty about it is. All parties involved should be willing to discuss their debt positions, both the Master and the submissive's. 

b) Bills
It takes money to provide food, clothing and shelter. Decide how this is going to be paid for. Your relationship may be one where full control is handed over to one member - that does not mean you shouldn't understand where money goes.

If you are not in a relationship where one member provides everything, or there is an associated power structure divide a way which is fair to all parties.

It may not be considered fair if one of you earns 100,000 and one 30,000 that you divide the expenses equally. A fairer division might be adding up the bills and using the income in a percentage formula to divide the bills. For example if the bills are 4200 dollars. Using the above example if the combined household income is 130,000 then the higher earner earns 76% of the household income - therefore they should pay 76% of the expenses (4200) or $3192 leaving the rest for the other party.

This is not the only way however figuring out a way which works for you is critical.

c) Retirement
Have a retirement plan - in any relationship you should have your own retirement plan. If your partner controls your expenses they should be willing to make contributions for you into a retirement account. Caring about you includes caring about your future.

d) Understanding family finances
Understand that in some relationships the Dominant member takes full control - this does not mean you should be ignorant of finances. What happens if they end up in hospital? or dead? A positive relationship even if the dominant is in full control should explain to you on a regular basis the financial position of the household, this should include access to everyone in the relationship's credit report. If this is not your relationship the appropriate person should control the finances - the person who is the best at it. In some relationships one person handles the day to day, the other investments - it varies just as people do.

I haven't mentioned everything here I could. This is just a post to get people thinking. Remember that as you enter a relationship - sharing finances takes trust and honesty. If the person honestly wants a long-term relationship with you - of any nature or structure - they are going to care about your future, your role in the relationship - and be willing to take time for you to reach a comfort level where you can trust them with financial decisions.


If you have a story about finances and BDSM please feel free to post it so people can learn from your experience. I would post my friend's however it is not my place to tell their stories.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:14:42 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Great rant.  I will only add that it continues to fascinate me how much people in the scene go on about trust and limits when it comes to kink and never once have a serious conversation about these sorts of issues before making a commitment such as collaring or ownership.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:16:22 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I think that problems may arise in this area for a number of reasons.  Most of us have raised that talking about money is "rude".  In "vanilla" relationships when two people move in together, each contributes their fair share to the household (typically) and if the relationship ends,  each takes their things and leaves.  In a "lifestyle" relationship taking the same steps, someone is theoretically going to have more control, which can ultimately leave one in a lurch at the end.

I think another sad thing that happens is that when two people are getting together, one is either lacking in experience in such matters, or is so determined to please their new "master" that decisions may be made in haste.  Even the fact that the pair may be so swept up by all the "newness" that no one thinks about it and things just kind of "happen".  All are very dangerous in the long run.

I have been in discussion with a potential master for some time now.  Things have been looking promising enough to make me feel the need to have this conversation.  This was the most difficult conversation I think I have ever had!  But knowing that he would not want me to continue working, and would want me to live full time with him, the discussion was very necessary.  As some here may know from other posts, my life circumstances have logically led me to be a bit possessive of my "stuff".  It also has made me very aware of the importance of having money in the bank.  It was difficult asking what he thought I would be doing with my things (storage), or my car (still not agreeing on that), would I receive an allowance, etc.  As none of my other relationships have been of the cohabitation type, I am treading on new ground.  New very shaky ground.

I tell that story because I think this is one of the points where people lose site of the big picture.  The person who is going to be "sacrificing" their self sufficiency needs to make sure that, God forbid, things don't work out, they won't be left with nothing at the end.  Personally, I think if the sub/slave can't be thinking about it, then the dom/master should be thinking about it.  Someone should be thinking about it, but it is like a pre-nup, who wants to think about breaking up right at the beginning?  I think too often, the "it will never happen with us" type of attitude is the cause.  But as the OP said, what happens if the dom/master is in charge and dies?  Will the sub/slave still have a home?  A car?  Where will they now derive their income?  Depending on the length of the relationship prior to the death, the sub/slave may no longer be all that employable, so saying the sub can go and get a job is not as simple as it sounds.

I know from previous posts that MANY here have managed this issue very well.  I hope that they will all contribute as to how they did so.

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
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RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:16:52 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Hats off to You Ghostfalcon ... this is indeed a critical issue that it seems a lot of couples don't necessarily explore well enough. Even after 3 years together, Master and i are now readjusting O/our financial arrangements now O/our situation has changed. While i have made the moves i have of my own free will and NOT because He has demanded things be that way, there are still moments when i think "what the hell have i done! From a vanilla perspective this definitely isn't safe or sane LOL!" i don't want to give too many specifics here as the information could fall into inappropriate ears and cause problems. But if anyone wants to talk more specifically, email Maam Jay on the other side.

I totally agree that all parties in a relationship should understand the finances so they can operate them in the absence of the other. And that retirement plans, superannuation, health insurance, income protection, other insurances are all important ways of ensuring futures for all members of the relationship. All things W/we are currently dealing with. Thank you for raising this very important issue, I hope lots of people will read and respond!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
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RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:19:28 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline 		This is probably one of the best rants I've seen in quite awhile as well as being one of common sense. It always amazes me how someone will discuss every nitty gritty aspect of kink in the negotiations within a relationship.It's the every day "mundane" things are just swept under the rug and forgotten about during discussions. Excellent rant.

Edit. Evidently I should read all the posts since I could have just done a "What LA said" and been done with it.

< Message edited by SDFemDom4cuck -- 6/6/2007 8:21:17 PM >

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:20:14 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		To all people every where:
 
 Ignor GF's post at your own peril.


_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to MaamJay)
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RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:23:03 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, I forgot one other ... having a WILL! Incredibly important, especially in bdsm relationships which may not be recognised as legitimate by other family and friends. That could nullify less formal arrangements that have been made eg Master saying to sub, I want you to have everything if I die ... but not actually signing His name to that in a will. His family could simply claim the lot and the laws in many places wouldn't say otherwise. Or it all ends up tied to the public trustees for years and the poor sub/slave starves in the meantime! I know a lot of people think that making a will is "tempting fate". But I believe NOT making one is tempting fate in a different way, if something bad happens, I won't be around to sort it out!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to MaamJay)
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RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:25:02 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		Financial Matters


~       5% of gross pay will go to 401(k) or other retirement/savings
~       5% of net pay will go to household will go to “Family Fun Fund”
~       20% of net pay will go to Robert
~       Remainder of net pay will go to the household.
~       Bills will be paid on the first day of each month. 
~       Robert will not incur any new bills without express permission of Mistress
~       Robert will not make any purchases beyond his means of 20% of his net pay unless approved by Mistress or [husband] (in the event that Robert is asking about a gift for Mistress)
~       Robert will keep balanced household monies and will assist Mistress in building a budget. 
~       Robert will pay household bills from Mistress’ checking on the first of the month and Mistress will oversee and sign checks for payments.
~       Robert will discuss any issues regarding financial matters with Mistress

This came directly from a word doc I shared with Robert when we knew he was moving in.  I already knew exactly what his financial status was and will be in the next ten years or so (within normal reason).  I know everything about his financial status and he knows what is necessary to complete above tasks about my financial status.

That was the easy stuff for us.  We'll tweak it as it happens. 

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:26:36 PM   
MellowSir


Posts: 260
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline 		We could be sitting on a big pile of "stuff" and still be as alone as can be, and worse yet you never know who your true friends are unless they're there when you're broke too. So long as one can maintain their own life, like a roof over their head, etc etc, then money shouldn't be a primary focus....

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:34:12 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Oh, I forgot one other ... having a WILL! Incredibly important, especially in bdsm relationships which may not be recognised as legitimate by other family and friends. That could nullify less formal arrangements that have been made eg Master saying to sub, I want you to have everything if I die ... but not actually signing His name to that in a will. His family could simply claim the lot and the laws in many places wouldn't say otherwise. Or it all ends up tied to the public trustees for years and the poor sub/slave starves in the meantime! I know a lot of people think that making a will is "tempting fate". But I believe NOT making one is tempting fate in a different way, if something bad happens, I won't be around to sort it out!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]


Great additional advice.
I've been there, done that and lived the aftermath.

I would also add that it doesn't matter what your age is..no one, regardless of age is promised to live a full long life into their 80's..no matter how old you are if you're in a long term committed relationship/marriage have a will drawn up. The beneficiary of a will can be easily changed. Proving that you want your sub or Master/Mistress to be that beneficiary after you've died without a legal document stating so is impossible for the one left behind. (Not to mention a nightmare.)

From my own personal experience of not having done so and learning from the experience I would never be in another long term relationship/marriage where things were not written out in a legal contract should either person die. It's devastating enough to lose the person you love and share a life with for so many years. Add on the nightmare of losing everything you've built together and the devastation is unimaginable.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 8:47:42 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Also see threads on giving advice and experience in BDSM.
Many here need to Master living, functioning in the world, and common
sense.
Good advice here, common sense really is not that common.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/6/2007 8:50:20 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 9:04:30 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

We could be sitting on a big pile of "stuff" and still be as alone as can be, and worse yet you never know who your true friends are unless they're there when you're broke too. So long as one can maintain their own life, like a roof over their head, etc etc, then money shouldn't be a primary focus....


I think that is the whole point of the OP, that too often the "bottom" half of the relationship may have given up maintaining a roof over their head, etc. as part of the dynamic of the relationship that at some point, money issues need to be discussed and certain future type events planned for.  How does one whose primary focus been taking care of their "dom/master" (as their only "job") move on to maintain their own life in the event of an unexpected event, such as death or the end of the relationship?

(in reply to MellowSir)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/6/2007 11:47:12 PM   
alivingdoll


Posts: 57
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline 		This is an excellent topic and hit's home with me ,I went from a long term (9yrs )D/s relationship with no work experience no credity history completely off the grid and I grew up really sheltered from parents house to my first love and D/s relationship.

I Found myself single and looking had a couple  yrs of  searching then got with my second dominant who encouraged me to work outside the home along with establishing credit .I trusted his advice we did the online /long distance relationship Wa/Oregon  for a yr before I relocated to be with him . I thought I allowed enough time to pass but I now  realize desperation blinded me too alot and an online /phone and weekend visits relationship  (how do you really know someone ?).I yearned and ached for the security of what I had before .I call it ripe for the picking lol.I really thought I was being so careful and safe .He seemed so patient and went at my speed no pressure I had a very good feeling .

   We were together 3 yrs then I was told to get out .No excuse is needed,boy did I learn an expensive lesson .I later find out from a legal councilor that our seperation was just after bankruptsy laws had changed my councilor thought that was interesting My dom had a habit of doing this to others along with 4 ex wives I had found myself a con man .lucky me .

    After I moved out the credit card bills came in then I knew the cards he told me he was canceling or transfering to a lower interest rate were lies he'd cash out the cards(without my knowledge ) after I signed what I thought was a balance transfer .He'd say let's keep the money moving and pay little interest .He started me out with a secured credit card he paid for and within 6 months I was getting applications from every credit card possible .

   I did end up taking him to court to have the judgement split fairly some of the credit receipts showed he forged my signature after taking a handwriting test , .I did win and it was lowered but in my new life  I start it with debt and one hellva education with credit cards .they weren't joint cards so I was lucky he had a record with credit card fraud/forgery along with past victims of this same kind of crime.

My lawyer knew of my  lifestyle situation and was ready for him to bring that up as an excuse but he never did .My former Dom threatened to mention my contract not legal but it can sway a jury or disposition hearing to my mental capacity can raise a mental issue question .I wasn't going to mention the dynamics of our relationship but when the threats started to happen I needed to let my lawyer know yes I was embarassed as hell.
   I can say i'm enriched with knowledge I never knew before and will never allow this  too happen again .
             I risk unmasking myself as a very dumb person sharing this but we all make mistakes .
                    Do protect yourself and be safe but also protect your idenity and credit history .  ~~~~~Doll

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 3:52:55 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		Excellent Thread
I think everybody has given some really great feedback, even shared some real life experiences.  All things to consider before jumping head long into a relationship. 

This thread raises questions about what if the relationship itself fails, what position is one left standing in.  Things to think about if a Dom/me is seeks ownership over the submissives property including current financial assets and credit. 

When I read posts similar to what alivingdoll posted, I am disturbed.  I'm restraining myself from going off on a rant.

Entering into any relationship be it BDSM or vanilla there are no Guarantees or Warantee's that everything will work out or be as promised.

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 4:48:46 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I love this post - great rant (although I do not personally see a rant, just great advice) with top kudos.
 
I think this is something that all realtionships should discuss and talk and not just BDSM ones, and its something that doesn't happen that often, usually as an afterthought.
Wills are incredibly important (as already mentioned), especially when marriage isn't involved and when children are... and also care of the child is important - if there are relationships with step-children involved, making it legally known who is to be the legal guardian of the children is a utterly important, seeing as there could be other birth parents around.
 
Peace
 


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 4:55:21 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		This is a wonderful thread and all those who are considering leaving employment to become a 24/7 slave/sub should take heed. I personally know a woman who decided that being a kajira was her calling in life. She was married with older children at the time. She went online and met her "One" in a gor chatroom and they proceeded to do the online/phone thing for 2 years. Once she was divorced from her husband she was ready for her new Master. He told her she would not be allowed to work or have any access to money whatsoever. Everything she needed would come from him and he would take "good" care of her. She was thrilled! This woman left everything behind (including her children)and moved to a new state. What money she had she gave to her new Master and for the first 2 months they seemed happy but then the honeymoon phase wore off.
She wasn't allowed to go anywhere, call anyone, write anyone or have anyone visit. Her children would call for her and Master would tell them that she was "out". She noticed that the electricity was turned off occasionally, the phone was usually cut off and that the landlord was banging on the door for rent. There was hardly any food in the house and the only clothing she had was what she had brought with her. There was no such thing as going to the doctor or getting medicine. None of this is what they had negotiated prior to her becoming his property. He was of the mind that once he owned her, he could make whatever changes he wanted. Yes she thought having known him for two years that she knew him very well. They began to argue constantly. She stayed with this liar for 5 years. Master turned out to be the type of guy who couldn't handle money, in fact he had spent all the money she gave him on video games, gambling and drugs. When she finally left him all she had was the clothes on her back and more emotional baggage then she will ever be able to get rid of.

Moral of the story is, I don't care how sweet it seems or how right, look out for yourself. Keep some money tucked away in case things do not work out. It may seem "sweet" that he doesn't want you to work but the truth is in todays economy unless he is making a very good salary its very hard for two people to live off of one salary. This is particularly true if either party has debt. But if you must do it keep some money put away. If this upsets your potential Master/Mistress, then I would say that is a huge red flag.

Just my two cents,

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 5:48:20 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I agree that regardless of lifestyle, if people are considering a long-term relationship, especially cohabitating, they need to deal with the financial aspects.  I've seen relationships ruined because of finances.  If/when I get to a point of cohabitation with another, I would make sure I safeguarded what I have.  You never know what will happen and I feel that each partner should take responsibility for safeguarding their finances.  I have material things that I would never turn over to another person.  It isn't prudent and I feel ultimately responsible for myself, no dom or master changes any of that.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Ghostfalcon)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 5:57:11 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Finance is the #1 reason for fights in relationshis of all types, to neglect or abroate the discussion of them is risky for any relationship reguardless of structure. Hell the story line of "X buys a new "toy" without consulting the other party in the relationship and madness ensues" is standard fair for episode #4 second season of any sitcom.



(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 7:49:18 AM   
MyMastersOwn


Posts: 58
Joined: 5/24/2007
Status: offline 		Excellent Rant....

I can only add this though.... I'm personally NOT giving over my home.. property...check book..credit cards... .nothing.. to anyone. If the collaring involves moving in together. Everything will be worked out prior to. But still not handing over everything. If marriage is part of ( holds back a gag) there's ours then.. not mine and yours... but only to a point there too.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Relationship and Finance (a bit of a rant) - 6/7/2007 7:52:35 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		well finances are an important issue in a serious relationship, and absolutely should be discussed or negotiated prior to the start of something like a M/s relationship especially, i don't believe in the idea that a slave should look out for her own best interest (i.e. demanding knowledge of all financial matters, or keeping "a little something hidden away"). isn't that completely contrary to the whole idea of slavery in the first place? yes, there are great risks when one person becomes completely financially dependent on the other, and has no control over or say in the finances. however there are many risks attached to M/s relationships, that one along with all the others are things that should be carefully considered before making that leap.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 20
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