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when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 8:53:00 AM

LadyEllen

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Yes - I know, another thread started by me? Well, I just dont want you all to get bored, you know?

Before we start, can I please ask everyone not to get into an argument over hurt feelings etc because of possible responses from a few? Probably wasting my time with that, but its worth a try.

This is prompted by the many threads here which confuse the whole issue of crossdressing and transsexuality (lucky no one mentions intersex, but there we go), and also by a programme screened on BBC3 a week or so ago which followed the youngest TS woman in the UK. Lucy was only 17 when the programme started out – under age for surgical treatments, though she had begun hormones at 16 and arrested much of the male puberty. Lucy is now over 18 and has had breast augmentation already and is line for SRS in the near future too.

Lucy was definitely a girl; absolutely no question. She looked like a girl, moved and spoke and behaved like a girl, and had known from an early age she was a girl and like me had been bullied throughout school for being feminine. Her parents and family were very supportive – like in my case, they thought Lucy was a gay male or something, and though the reality came as a shock in the first place, she was accepted, like me.

Still though, Lucy had problems with relationships. Despite being to all effects a girl, guys shied away once they knew her past. The impression I got from this, and from my own experiences, is that no matter how one looks, moves, speaks and behaves, no matter what one does and no matter how accepted one is socially or how well one passes as female, one will always be “a bloke in a dress” when it comes to relationships, and rejected on that ground alone, regardless of any other factor. One could be the ideal partner in every way, yet one’s past will always outweigh everything else. And that applies to not only male partners, but also to female and to straight, gay or bi partners.

So the question is, can a boy ever really become a girl in the world of long-term adult sexual relationships?

(NB - by which I mean relationship, not a one night stand for a bet or whatever!).

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 9:17:24 AM

slaverosebeauty

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Yes.

I remember seeing on a news show or something a while back about someone who under went gender reassignment, and is a beautifull woman, married and very much in love. Her partner DOES know she was a man before; he loves her as she is now, a woman and his beautifull wife, they have 2 adopted children, have a great life together and are very happy.

The reason for the new program, was that someone in their community 'found out' and it was a 'scandal.' Seems kidna silly, its no ones business but those who are concerned. Personally, I don't care. I look at the person, NOT the gender.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 9:23:41 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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I think so. For me it's mostly a matter of self identification. I have met some great people who were completely biologically female, who enjoyed having a female physical body, but completely identified as male. So I went with that.

So it doesn't matter what they wear, what body parts they have, or anything like that- if they identify in themselves as a man or a woman, then I go with that.

Now as for personal attraction, as always, when you get down to what really works for you, the pool is small for everyone. But it exists.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 9:43:17 AM

Arpig

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sorry, but Lucy is a boy..unless the DNA says otherwise

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 9:46:52 AM

kittinSol

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I'm going to quote a Guardian journalist here, Dea Birkett:

quote:

Transsexuals argue that they have no choice; you simply can’t help wanting your willie chopped off. The Gender Identity Consultancy, drawing on Dutch research, believes transsexuality is a medical condition caused by an imbalance in the hormones in the uterus six to nine weeks after conception.

Now, a female brain is an interesting idea. What is special about this brain? Does it like to play with Barbie dolls when it’s little? Does it prefer pink to blue? As it grows up, is it particularly good at baking fairy cakes?

Such theories deliver a below-the-belt blow to the sexual revolution. It’s the opposite of the healthy pursuit of gender-bending, which challenges permissible practices for men and women. Instead, it seeks to define what you can or can’t do by your crotch.

Transsexuality also supports a conservative view on acceptable sexual practices. Bans on gays and lesbians joining the armed forces are not being lifted following the case of Sergeant Major Rushton, on the grounds that a sex change is a medical condition and therefore nothing like homosexuality, which is seen as a matter of choice. Ironically, having your beard painfully plucked out and your willie chopped off is far less threatening than kissing someone else of the same sex.

Gender reassignment surgery is declaring that you can’t act like a man without having a willie, and can’t act like a woman without having a hole. But, over the past two decades, women have increasingly realised that they can act as men without having male equipment. It’s our attitude towards acceptable behaviour for a man that needs a few nips and tucks, not a couple of hundred penises on the NHS.

It pretty much encompasses my view on the subject. For what it's worth...

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 10:04:55 AM

MasterFireMaam

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Given that Italian scientists recently grafted lab-grown vaginal tissue into women who had none (grown from stem cells), I'd say that pretty soon, there can be a complete transformation of sex to match gender.

To me, a boy becomes a girl as soon as she recognizes that she is female by gender. Becoming female by sex is a little harder, but can be done.

Master Fire

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 10:58:30 AM

popeye1250

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When his name is "Boy George?"

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:02:51 AM

Viridana

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I worked with a pre-op transgendered girl (born as a boy). She identifies herself as female, has taken up a female name and is going through the process of having sex reassignment surgery. Even though she still has her willy I say she's a girl. That's what she wants to be, is strifing to be and in her soul is. Who am I to judge or thrust my beliefs on her? She has asked to be called "she" instead of "he" (or "it" as many do) and I see no reason why I shouldn't respect that.

Going through the emotional turmoil of feeling like you are of the wrong gender must be so hard and even though I've had to go through some tough emotional times, I can't even begin to compare it to how it must be like. And it pleases me immensely to see this former coworker of mine blossoming finally as the person she feels she is.

< Message edited by Viridana -- 6/7/2007 11:05:39 AM >

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:29:05 AM

kittinSol

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I don't think a transgender person is really of the other sex though. As the journalist said, it's not because someone gets their cock cut off and replaces it with an artificial cunt that they become a woman.

Or vice-versa.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:40:54 AM

LaTigresse

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For myself, I try to consider where the persons spirit and soul reside. That is more important to me than physical parts.

I guess it all depends upon whom you ask and what their individual determining factor is. Wether they insist it is all about physical body parts or something more complex. I think to look, and see a pecker or lack thereof, and make a determination based solely upon that observation may be too old school and simplistic. I think that we, as humans, are much more complex than that simple of a dertermining factor.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:46:11 AM

kittinSol

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I very much agree with you: I fear people who yearn for a sex-change are in such moral and mental pain, they believe acquiring a new set of sexual attributes is the only solution to their gender-confusion.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:46:22 AM

velvetears

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A boy becomes a girl when he identifies as a girl. Gender isn't just between the legs it's between the ears as well. Unfortunately many people don't understand what it's like to go through the trauma of living a lie all your life - the angush and pain that person feels of being born in the wrong body - it must be devestating to be so detached from your physical being and to feel trapped in a body you can in no way relate to. i would have no problem in seeing the person as the gender they identified with and lived as - i could care less what they looked like naked.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:51:51 AM

velvetears

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I very much agree with you: I fear people who yearn for a sex-change are in such moral and mental pain, they believe acquiring a new set of sexual attributes is the only solution to their gender-confusion.

What other solution do you propose for them?? Let me ask you a question - suppose tomorrow by some weird twist of fate you opened your eyes, got out of bed, went to take a shower and your breasts were gone, you had hair on your chest, and you looked down and found a pecker? Would you say oh well, i will have to adjust to this body, i will still "live as a girl" cause thats what i really am or would you RUN to the doctor for help?

[edited to add this thought]

i just caught your use of the term "gender confusion" - this is where i believe your thinking is wrong. These individuals aren't confused they KNOW they were born the wrong gender, they don't feel ambivelent about it at all - they look on it like a cruel cosmic joke, like they are mistakes.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 6/7/2007 11:54:31 AM >

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:57:54 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I very much agree with you: I fear people who yearn for a sex-change are in such moral and mental pain, they believe acquiring a new set of sexual attributes is the only solution to their gender-confusion.

I think thats an important point. I have come across many who fixate on the surgery far too much in my opinion - with little concern for the day to day business of life. I've gotten a fair bit of stick over my view that surgery is purely a finishing touch, and that its pointless and very dangerous to go for, if one cannot do everyday life. No one (that I know of anyway) determines who is a guy and who is a gal when theyre walking through town, by looking at the genital area - its in the appearance, manner and so on that such identification is made, so its this that is the most important aspect of transition for me, for it enables me to achieve my aims of living as female. Passersby see a woman, and (presumably) dont wonder whats in my knickers!

That said though, surgery as a finishing touch does become a necessity for me. Whether it makes any difference in the relationship stakes is irrelevant in a way, though I suspect it would improve my chances from zero to a couple of percent!

E

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 11:59:07 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So the question is, can a boy ever really become a girl in the world of long-term adult sexual relationships?

In my eyes yes.

To me, if they look like a girl, move like a girl, talk like a girl, have girl bits, then they are a girl. I really wouldn't care if they used to be a boy. I'm not going to lie and say it wouldn't be an adjustment but whatever. If she loves me and she's perfect for me, then she is perfect for me.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 12:01:19 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i just caught your use of the term "gender confusion" - this is where i believe your thinking is wrong. These individuals aren't confused they KNOW they were born the wrong gender, they don't feel ambivelent about it at all - they look on it like a cruel cosmic joke, like they are mistakes.

Ditto that.

Nature fucked up and nature fucks up a lot more then people would like to admit.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 12:04:27 PM

philosophy

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<fast reply>

...when does a boy become a girl? When they honestly, profoundly and genuinely self-identify as such.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 12:13:11 PM

kittinSol

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I was expecting that sort of reaction. You have to read me carefully: I make no judgement about people's suffering. I think that the whole idea of 'reassignment' comes from our own society's twisted idea of what constitutes gender and genders' roles. It's my opinion that transsgender issues stem from social and sexual conditionning.

Never would I dare to interfere with people's choices. Ultimately it's their bodies.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 12:15:47 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Maybe. I think there really are people who feel a need to change their physical body's to feel more "themselves." Women go through changing their hair all the time, it often becomes part of their identity.

Changing body parts to feel more "one's self" isn't necessarily bad at all. One simply hopes they are doing it truly for themselves and not due to some external pressure they've bought into.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/7/2007 1:41:08 PM

NeedToUseYou

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This is all my opinion that follows, I'm not trying to push this view on anyone.

My view is if you were born a man your man, if your born a woman your woman. If your were born a man and then had your willy changed to a hole. Your a man that changed his willy to a hole. That's it.

Now, LadyEllen for example, or someone in the same situation. I could be friends with, and do all the things friends do. I'd even help kick the shit out of someone if they harassed you about your decision. I have no problem with the lifestyle, or the things that were done, or will be done, it's your body and life and you can do with it what you chose. But I could never get over the thought that without hormones, and surgery, the "lady" would have a beard and a hard-on. It just would never happen, my imagination is to good. And I don't identify with men in sexual manner. So, any intimate relationship with anybody that can refer to their "past" gender would be nil.

That is not to say I couldn't be firends, or I couldn't be supportive, but rather it would be a bridge like asking a straight guy to marry is good buddy. That is what it feels like.

More power to you if you find someone, I'm not against other people accepting it, I just don't view it as man woman relationship. If that is a hick throwback quality then that is what it is. Honestly, though I've asked a few guy friends about this, and at least the ones around here have that opinion, who knows though if that is there real view or public view. People do sometimes have different beliefs than they let others know about.

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