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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/8/2007 9:41:39 AM   
PapiNsweet


Posts: 36
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline 		well, here goes my (non-PC but honest) opinion: if you were born genetically male, then in my eyes you will always be a male, regardless of what hormones, surgical procedures, etc., are undertaken. likewise for someone born genetically female and then transitioning to male in later life. that person will always be a female in my view. however, this would not prevent me from befriending such a person or respecting such a person. however i will never agree with their self-identity. there was a situation recently where the submissive half of a local D/s couple is a t, in transition from male to female. lives entirely as a female and has begun hormone therapy and once the money is saved intends on having the complete surgery. this submissive came to me and wanted some advice regarding the lifestyle as they are very new to it all, which is all fine and dandy. but when this person would refer to themselves as female, or more specifically, would refer to themselves as being just like me in that we were both women (saying things like "we" are the weaker sex), it put me off quite a bit and i found myself unable to respond. we ended up having to break off contact with this couple, as they view themselves as being Dom male/sub female, and they know that my Master and i will never see them that way.

intellectually and emotionally, i can understand and empathize with the issue of your birth gender not matching up with what you feel in every pore of you is your "true" gender. i believe it's a good thing that we live in an age where many people are able to cosmetically alter themselves so that the outside matches up with the inside. however the fact that nature may have made a mistake, does not negate the fact that we are who we are. think of a set of twins in the womb, however one dies in utero before it's fully developed. the child who is then born is and forever will be a twin, just a twin whose sibling died. likewise, a child born with complete, functional male genitalia will always be a male, however in the case of a transitioned TS or TG (sorry if i'm using incorrect terminology), they will just be a male whose bits have been removed and reformed.


-prop

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/8/2007 9:48:30 AM   
MistressMonet2u


Posts: 24
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Wow!!!!

I'm loving this thread, thank you Lady Ellen!  I am the owner of a MtoF slave.  When I met her she was a boy or trying to be a boy, I found her very feminine only to have her later confess that it has been her life dream to be a girl so after lots of conversation she started up that path.  She has recently came out at work and people are supportive and watching her change right before their very eyes.  She's very attractive as a girl.  I see her totally as a girl always have even from the first day we met.  When we play and she's nude sometimes I am surprised when her naughty bits dont match what the rest of her so clearly feminine body and mannerisms.  I'm surprised each and everytime and I'm still trying to figure out why, I suppose its because the bits dont match the rest of her???

We've been having the "cut or not to cut" conversation a lot recently.  I really had to search my soul about having an opinion about it one way or the other, because the body she was born in is ultimately hers no matter how much we like to think its mine and I have a hard and fast rule that I wont alter someone body permanently without their consent. I won't be living with the drastic change, the pain from surgery or the mental leapfrogging that goes along with it.  Then finally I came to this conclusion...no matter what her body looks like, no matter what silppery bits she has, she'll still be my girl who I love with all my heart and I look forward to our future together.

For the record, she is bi as am I and we're intimate, when I wanna be! lol

-=M=-


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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/8/2007 10:00:50 AM   
Viridana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farmbound1

okay, i'll be the one to bring up intersex.  i was born an xy male (yes DNA is male) but my fetal body lacked androgen receptors so that when it came time for the "y" in my chromosomes to activate, my body could not respond and so it developed fetally as female, but not completely.  Thus I was born with a "hole" and a testes hidden in my body cavity where the ovaries should be. My parents thought I was a girl and raised me as a girl. I never felt like a girl but I accepted it because I wasn't a contrary child. When puberty hit, everyone, including me, was in shock because I did not go through a female puberty, I went through a male puberty, and thus is was discovered that I was truly male - xy- through tests. Now I live as male. I have not had genital surgery because of cost, surgical complications, and the probability of not great looking or functioning results.  I am comfortable with who I am and I live completely as male in mind and body, yet there are some people who would say, because I lack a full size functioning penis, that I am not male.  That's the narrow-minded, high-handed kind of prejudice that people like me and Lady Ellen and countless others have to deal with on a daily basis.  Transsexual, transgendered, or intersex, we are human beings and just want to be seen as who we really are.


This is really interesting and thank you for sharing your story. I have an aquaintance that has the same condition. She however never has identified herself as a male and she lives as a female. Apart from having a little shorter vagina than normal, no-one would ever even consider what her genetic compostition is. She has adopted two children, is married and lives a happy life.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/8/2007 10:02:14 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PapiNsweet

but when this person would refer to themselves as female, or more specifically, would refer to themselves as being just like me in that we were both women (saying things like "we" are the weaker sex), it put me off quite a bit and i found myself unable to respond. -prop


Thanks for your post and for the honesty - its refreshing and gets us somewhere in this debate.

I wanted to go off topic for a moment to pick up on the snip above, just to say that I really dont understand what your former friend said about being the weaker sex at all. I was weak before, I lacked confidence and the whole run of what being an all round person constitutes. Nowadays I'm quite the opposite - even showing emotion would you believe, which some regard as weak, but which is actually a huge strength.

It annoys me personally, the way that some TS females seem to try to conform to some gender stereotype. Its their choice though and maybe that is who they are. I'm happy to be me, the real me, which is anything but a stereotype!

E

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/8/2007 10:03:35 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMonet2u

Wow!!!!

I'm loving this thread, thank you Lady Ellen! 
-=M=-



Youre most welcome! And thanks for your contribution - you have one lucky gal there!

E

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/9/2007 3:57:59 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What sex someone is, is such a fundamental fundamental - its the very first thing we notice about anyone, and perhaps when passing in the street the only thing we notice about someone. Its not possible to get away from that, without putting the eyes out of everyone in the world first. And should we interact with someone, then our respective sexes as we each have identified in the other will strongly affect that interaction in all but the perfect world - even if we dont feel it does. It was only when I crossed the great divide that I found out the realities of how women are dealt with by men, and saw how women deal amongst each other in contrast.



I agree with what you are posting completely, LadyEllen, although in a sense I am not.

When a person has a specific self image, the only person whose self image they can change or modify or whatever is their own. 

Going through life seeking acceptance from other people puts other people in charge of whether one is accepted or not.  It would make me nervous to grant other people that level of control over my self image.

On the other hand, I do not live as gender A trapped or whatever in the body of gender B, so I personally dont put a lot of credence or importance in my opinion about the matter.

Sinergy

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 1:03:56 AM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		Well, first let me say to LadyEllen....ya blew me away hun. I actually thought you were a female. Now for your transition of being a female trapped in a male body.....I can totally identify with that. I was technically born female....but never felt as one. I have enough male hormones in my body to pass as a male...if I don't shave, i'll grow a beard. Other than the particular parts....every aspect of me is male, the way I act, walk, talk...everything. My girl has told me and others that I am more of a male than most men she's met. I myself would love to be able to make the complete transition into becoming a male and finally feeling like a whole person, but I can't afford it.

As for being accepted.....i've never really had a problem with that except from my mother. Everyone else who knows me, know what i'm like and have no quams with calling me a he. And i'm upfront when meeting someone for the first time as to how I identify. I have no confusions as to who I am or what I am. I am a man....I was just born with tits and a pussy.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 1:06:15 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		I've been following the thread and felt that I should maybe add something here.

I am a pre-op TS female, I'm transitioning and have been living full time as a woman for the past 2-3 years (this transition), there have been previous attempts at transition and the whole length of trying to transition spans now some 9 years, since the Internet (and subsequent visits to doctors) confirmed doubts that I had about myself since the age of 4. The majority of my life was spent trying to live in male gender, and despite attempts I failed.

I am female, the TS or 'transsexual' I use to qualify myself is an indication that I am suffering from a medical condition. This isn't a label, just a statement of fact. I don't feel ashamed of being a TS, it's the way I am and something I was born with. I think and feel as a female, I relate to others as a female, I identify myself as a female, and have feminine physical characteristics - bone structure, legs, pelvic arrangement. But I also have masculine physical features too, many more than any naturally born female. In my case being intersexed hasn't been completely ruled out. I don't walk along the street with 'I am a TS" labelled on me, in most face to face dealings I don't offer or explain my condition but simply present myself as Stella. Quite often it will only be an issue if I choose to make it an issue.

On the one hand I agree with the point Lady Ellen made that if you are very feminine and convincing as your 'true' gender (I don't use the term destination gender because it implies you are going from one gender to the other, which if you are a genuine transsexual you aren't, which is why I also reject the term 'sex change') acceptance comes easier - especially if you are a M2F transsexual who is small, slim or you conform to the popular or media stereotype of what is female.

But on the other hand I don't. I am tall, I am also not slim, and I'm also not the most convincing of transsexuals. But much of whether you are accepted or not by others in your 'true' gender isn't really down to your personal appearance or how you present yourself but it's more down to how you come across to other people, how you project yourself and how you behave. I experience far more problems over my size than my gender issues. I have had contact with three Dommes on Collarme, two of which I have met and none of whom had any issues as to which gender I was - in all cases I was female, and the reality matches the image found on my profile.

I am working towards surgery but am not fixated on this operation, because having a vagina isn't going to define me as a female any more than having a penis does not. I am female, I have always been female, and I became a female when I realised that I was female and started being myself and facing up to my issues. Am I pretending to be female? Sometimes in a way I wish I was, it would have made my life so much simpler and easier. But I know I am not, and the psychiatrists who have put me through fairly rigorous intensive psychiatric examinations are also convinced I'm not pretending.

It is true what Lady Ellen wrote that to be accepted as female you need the acceptance of others, and not just the acceptance of those who already know you, but others to whom you present yourself in your 'true' gender. You cannot live on your own in society, you have to live among people.

I have also read the opinions of people such as NeedToUseYou, and value their contribution to this thread. I actually feel that their opinions are more common than many others are prepared to admit. I respect such opinions and that they have the right to beg to differ, just as much as I have the right to beg to differ. They are just as right in their opinions as I am in mine.

Like Lady Ellen has so rightly pointed out there are those who lead lonely lives or form relationships with people in similar situations, they remain isolated, or spend long periods unemployed, and quite a few find that the stresses and challenges of the transition are too much and they abandon their transitions, choosing to either live as female among others without any treatment, or they return to the 'double life', and a few commit suicide.

I am one of the fortunate ones. I have a wonderful Domme, and I am working on a comeback in theatre and regaining my reputation for my plays and work in theatre along with acceptance and after a couple difficult years my efforts at rebuilding my life are finally paying off.

I am in transition, I am a work in progress in a way...

...but I am who I was meant to be.

< Message edited by stella40 -- 6/10/2007 1:09:20 AM >

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If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 1:38:13 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
So the question is, can a boy ever really become a girl in the world of long-term adult sexual relationships?


Never.  Not to be mean- but hear my point.

I read your profile, at least, a skim.  In the start, you begin, "I'm TS."  (By which I'm guessing, "I'm [transexual]"?)  Do not mistake me- that's an honest start on an important detail behind your life experience.  I do not fault it.  But could you look someone in the eye and say, "I'm a girl", completely leaving out the transexual bit, and feel honest?

My point is, you were born male (as I understand the case to be).  That- along with this battle- define you in a manner that is outside of a more simplistic feminine experience.  Should you approach all in earnest, you would not recieve universal recognition as entirely female.  I do not see such a view changing, on the whole, within the foreseeable span of our lifetimes.

Nonetheless, you have, in many ways, come to express something that you have sensed within yourself, even if this was recognized as a gender identity contrary to what the stuff between your legs would have determined you in childhood.  To have followed this so far seems to be a commendable achievement.

To reiterate I doubt one can, at this time, truly forsake former gender in adoption of a new one.  I believe that the 'TS' label stands as more accurate than either 'male' or 'female'.  Still, I would ask one thing: should you never be able to be considered as one might be if born as such a gender, would this truly be a shame?

I would ask you forgive me, should my view seem cruel; still, I would argue that your personal identity is more becoming of a truthful sentiment than either gender identity.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 6:12:46 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i think anyone who says a girl can never become a boy, when they stick to the stance that the gender you were born with that shows on the outside (genitals) is what you are and i will never see it any other way, aren't taking a lot into consideration.  What constitutes gender? So many things - genitals only being one of many.  To negate who they say they are is only looking at it on the surface.  What about the brain and all the chemicals that create who we are - our personalities and mental illnesses, intelligence capacities, skills, etc... these brain chemicals also contribute to our gender identity. 

i am sure many are familiar with the famous twin study where male twins were born and one had his penis accidentally burned off during curcumcision. The family decided to raise the child as female. This child was followed up and studied her whole life and as it turns out the doctor who had control wanted to prove that gender was more a product of social conditioning.  He basically lied and skewed all the data, as this was later found out. The family of this (male coverted to female) from birth were interviewd and spoke of a tortured life this poor child had.  "She" wasn't told till she was much older but during her whole life she knew something was wrong and never felt "like a girl" - she ended up committing suicide.  How sad to not accept people and force them to live up to our limited definition of what gender is and not who they know themselves to be. 

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 1:42:18 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Thanks for everyone's continuing contributions - it really is great to have a discussion like this without the usual dramas and confusions - not to mention the PC stuff.

If anyone wants to read about the study which Velvetears mentioned, Google "Dr John Money + Reimer" (Reimer is the family name of the twin). That will likely bring up two stories - what Dr Money published, and what happened and had been happening over the years of the twin's life. He was raised as a girl, but never felt right as a girl, and when the truth was revealed he switched over to living as a male, though understandably perhaps given all he had gone through, ended up committing suicide. The remaining family meanwhile is pretty much a broken entity.

Whilst we cannot blame Money's initial intentions perhaps in doing what could be done in the circumstances at the beginning, given what he understood at that time about gender identity and so on, we can be very angry at his continuing insistence that despite all that has since come to light, it is social conditioning which forms gender identity. Clearly, whatever forms gender identity, his experiment disproved his hypothesis, and for him to continue to try to show the opposite is unscientific at best and highly dangerous at worst. It also places blame for cross gender identity on how children are raised, and thus squarely on parents who are generally as shocked and confused as everyone else, and which even from my life experience is very, very wrong.

One is left in no confusion whatsoever about how one's parents view their eldest boy, when he is threatened with various sanctions at any mention or expression of an identity contrary to that assigned. It still sticks in my mind from around the mid/late 70s (I think) when BBC were screening the story of a male to female transition (George To Julia), and I mentioned quite innocently as a child of around ten I suppose, that one day I'd like to do that. I didnt realise it was such an awful thing, but I soon did after I'd said it.

E

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 2:00:01 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		OK - lets turn this slightly, and ask "what is a girl?" What determines womanhood exactly? Again, this isnt in relation to our own inner identity but as far as outside observers are concerned.

We have seen from views about we TS females that inner gender identity isnt it, and neither is appearance or manner or behaviour. We have seen from the valuable contributions from intersex people whose chromosomes are XY (male), that having a vagina isnt it.

We can say that having breasts doesnt make someone a woman - or breast cancer patients who have breasts removed would no longer be women. Equally, a womb doesnt make a woman, or a hysterectomy would render women as other. And what of ovaries? Some have to have these removed for medical reasons too.

And what of character and personality? Even in this we cannot say that there is some set of core attributes or forms of expression which are exclusively female or even found in all women, by which we might identify the female.

E


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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 5:20:14 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I read your profile, at least, a skim.  In the start, you begin, "I'm TS."  (By which I'm guessing, "I'm [transexual]"?)  Do not mistake me- that's an honest start on an important detail behind your life experience.  I do not fault it.  But could you look someone in the eye and say, "I'm a girl", completely leaving out the transexual bit, and feel honest?



What you say is true, CuriousLord, but I have a different take on the matter.

The reason the person would want to tell the other person they were a M->F or a F->M to be, as you state, honest, would be done (correct me if I am wrong, LadyEllen) because of the entrenched bigotry in the human species.  It gives the other person they are interested in the opportunity to stay, look disgusted, slap the person, whatever, and walk away.

Somebody who has gone this route and identifies as this or that gender has no intrinsic honesty issues about it.  They live life as a woman or man, regardless of their plumbing.  Looked at a certain way, I suppose them saying that they were once X and are now Y would be dishonest to themselves.

I would appreciate being told, but I would understand the reluctance to tell me.  I have not lived in their world, facing their issues, or whatever, in the same sense that I know I will never know what it is like to grow up female.  What attracts me to a partner is their spirit, their soul, their mind, far as I am concerned, parts is parts.

Sinergy

edited to get rid of a look

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 6/10/2007 5:21:25 PM >

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 5:43:23 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i think anyone who says a girl can never become a boy, when they stick to the stance that the gender you were born with that shows on the outside (genitals) is what you are and i will never see it any other way, aren't taking a lot into consideration.  What constitutes gender? So many things - genitals only being one of many.  To negate who they say they are is only looking at it on the surface.  What about the brain and all the chemicals that create who we are - our personalities and mental illnesses, intelligence capacities, skills, etc... these brain chemicals also contribute to our gender identity.


This is why I said, "I would argue that your personal identity is more becoming of a truthful sentiment than either gender identity."  In other words, who they have become is neither male nor female- at least, not so much so as they are simply themselves.  A transexual individual, in my view, does not exclusely belong to either gender.

As you said, there's a lot that one might attach to a gender.  Gender, however, is defined as a rather static point- most humans do not observe creatures adopting more than a single gender in nature, or switching between them.  One's birth attributes and time-of-death attributes are both part the gender identity.  One's way of thinking, acting in society, part of the reproductive cycle, etc.- are all points of consideration.

So can a transual male to female ever be truly female?  No, it can not.  If you say it can, you're not taking into account its orginial nature, and the probablity it's unable to actually give birth to a child.  Such an individual is not female, nor male.  You can put up an arguement as to which gender they might be closer to- but I would argue that such an individual falls into neither catigory.

This argument.. is self-evidient.. but, like many, may be rejected by some for emotional reasons.  I despise emotions driving debates and affecting one's logic.  Nonetheless, I suppose I must still address the emotional aspect, should I desire to reach such individuals.  So.. I'd encourage such, and others, after the logic has been accepted to, instead of trying to force reason to contradict itself, to see the virtues in having a unique identity.  If this is the way it is, then it's better to understand it and find meaning in it, instead of denying it as vulgar.

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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/10/2007 5:46:36 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I believe that the idea that one must be of one gender or the other is one in error.  Those debating "transexuality" follow the misgnomer too far, assuming an individual must conform to a classical gender.  I would argue this is not the case.  As far as I know, such individuals do not even meet the biological definition yet, do they?  Let alone the social definitions.

So, I argue that such fall outside of these classic definitions, into their own realm, and I question the wisdom in trying to force an individual to appear as either gender.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/11/2007 1:02:06 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi Curious Lord. You know, you are posting some interesting stuff here!

Youre absolutely right about what I read you mean from "conforming to classical gender"; there is a lot of this about in the TS "world". Prior to confessing all and facing up, TS females often do their level best to conform to stereotypical male gender - in fact to go overboard on proving their manliness in order I suppose, to hide themselves and suppress themselves. Apparently, (though I have no idea if this is true), the highest proportion of TS females per capita by prior employment come from the SAS (UK special forces), who recruit mainly from the Paratroops and Royal Marines (for membership of which, one must be near on certifiably a hard nut).

When the fessing up is done, the new TS female is often seen to go overboard the other way, again trying to conform to some classical gender stereotype in many ways. They will not wear trousers/pants, they will only wear nylons and heels and the most feminine blouses etc. This isnt surprising in many ways - it is a function of the relief from their former anxieties and of course is a compressed analogue of what every teenage natal girl goes through, trying and testing different looks and so on. In addition, in those early days the new TS female finds that such an overt appearance is better for them to pass as female, inwardly if not outwardly too. Its a strange time, for whatever one's feelings and however strong they might be, the person is very much like the immigrant to a new land; in a new life where little or nothing is known of local customs.

Usually though, this phase passes and it is only then that the true social transition takes place. The TS female learns how to be herself, within a wide spectrum of female appearances and behaviours afforded by our society.

And that is a point that must be stressed. Whilst our society does allow for a wide spectrum of appearance and behaviour, and there is no stereotype of what male or female is, yet we go through life identifying one another as to sex as the first distinguishing factor. It is very dangerous for a male to appear to be anything but - albeit again within a wide spectrum, and it is equally unacceptable socially for a female to appear to be anything but - again within a wide spectrum, in the wider everyday society. When one is a teenager and young adult, yes one can get away with all sorts for its expected that one will test limits, but once one is a full adult that tolerance is over and aside from self sustaining communities of others who are not tolerated (the LGBT community as a whole for instance), one must appear to be either male or female to succeed in life. Very sad, but true.

And of course the other factor for the TS female is that unless she can be very convincing, she faces a very much uphill battle just surviving. The frequency of violence against TS females is staggering - I work as an adviser to the police and I see the crime figures. There is harassment, vandalism of her home, dog shit through the letterbox, assault, even murder, for no other reason than that she didnt pull off an Oscar winning performance on one occasion and got noticed. Failure to conform to one gender or the other attracts serious social penalties on other ways too - loss of employment and inability to find a new job, consequent loss of home, vehicle, social support network and so on. Its very alike to how being outed as gay worked and likely still does work in many places in our societies. I cant believe I am so lucky; living where I do, I should have been dead a while back, and I only have a job, home and car now because I worked in an industry where one can start up alone, having been encouraged to leave my position as general manager of a company I steered to success over four years, once I transitioned; oh, they said all the right things, but the message was clear.

E

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/11/2007 7:58:15 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Never. Not to be mean- but hear my point.

I read your profile, at least, a skim. In the start, you begin, "I'm TS." (By which I'm guessing, "I'm [transexual]"?) Do not mistake me- that's an honest start on an important detail behind your life experience. I do not fault it. But could you look someone in the eye and say, "I'm a girl", completely leaving out the transexual bit, and feel honest?


It depends who it is to. Speaking personally if it was to a potential employer or a shopkeeper I could say 'I'm a female' and feel honest. I know who I am, my medical records state I am a female and psychiatrists who have examined me have taken my words and the facts of my life, applied it to their criteria and declared I am female, therefore who I am deceiving? My assertion that I am female is based on facts, not feelings. I don't expect to have close interpersonal relationships with either my employer or shopkeeper and therefore the way I speak or whatever I have to do to conceal my masculinity is beside the point. If I am challenged I will openly admit to being a TS female and wish to be regarded as such. Would you expect a woman in a wheelchair to have to explain why she is in a wheelchair? And what is it you see anyway? A woman, or a woman in a wheelchair? Personally I see a woman.

However in closer personal contacts I qualify the fact I am female by the term TS or transsexual as a statement of fact that I am a female suffering from gender dysphoria. People may think otherwise and they have the right to do so, but I know who I am, so do my doctors and this information is enough for me. Calling me a transsexual without the female is the same as calling someone a spastic, an asthmatic, a paraplegic, which personally I find rather dehumanizing.

After surgery if I'm not having a sexual relationship with someone I will look someone in the eye and say I'm female, not a post-op transsexual. Does anyone describe themself as a post-op arthroscopy query proceed or post-op appendicectomy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
My point is, you were born male (as I understand the case to be). That- along with this battle- define you in a manner that is outside of a more simplistic feminine experience. Should you approach all in earnest, you would not recieve universal recognition as entirely female. I do not see such a view changing, on the whole, within the foreseeable span of our lifetimes.


My point is I wasn't born male.. I was sexed as a male at birth, raised as a boy and socialized as a male. The inner battle I fought was one I was fighting with myself. But why would I want to gain universal recognition as being entirely female? I'm not here to change the world or society, I'm not here to convince people of the cause for transsexuals, I'm here on this planet just like everyone else to be myself and to live and function normally and happily as myself with other people in my life. I know I will never be the same as a naturally born female, nor would I wish to be. I am who I am.

I agree there will never be a change in the acceptance of transsexuals because of the enforcement of gender stereotypes everyone experiences in early childhood which creates problems and difficulties not just for transsexuals but for anyone who falls outside the generally accepted stereotypes of what is male what is female.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Nonetheless, you have, in many ways, come to express something that you have sensed within yourself, even if this was recognized as a gender identity contrary to what the stuff between your legs would have determined you in childhood. To have followed this so far seems to be a commendable achievement.


Thank you, but it really wasn't quite so much an achievement, but as a struggle to find the words, facts, and reasons for my own inner doubts and confusion which I experienced over many years. It was also a struggle to challenge the view of myself imposed by other people and to stand up one day and say 'I'm sorry, but this is me and who I really am.'

I can still remember the feelings I experienced in August 1998 when I found out and discovered the truth. I will never forget the immense sense of relief I felt at knowing the truth. I also felt a failure, a disappointment, and I also felt a tremendous sense of guilt, not because I had been deceiving myself, but because in deceiving myself I had been deceiving others. I remember the intense emotions of coming out, the joy and happiness and relief when someone said 'So what?' and the pain and sadness when people turned away.

It's a bit like discovering that Santa Claus no longer exists when you are a child. What do you do? Continue believing for the sake of your parents and relatives or do you admit that you no longer believe in Santa Claus and try to work out where your Christmas presents actually come from? And so it was in my life. I could continue to be 'male' as others perceived and continue deceiving them and not facing up to my issues, or I could face up to my issues and start a new life as a female.

But to me the ones to whom I would ascribe the commendable achievement are people like yourself, CuriousLord, and others who have contributed to this thread, the people who have been open enough to voice their prejudices, to listen to the other side, and to make an attempt at understanding what it must be like to be a transsexual female (or male). I'm not for one minute saying that you have to agree or even understand, because you don't but you are aware and you accept the difficult nature of what trans-people have to go through and I guess in your own way you are able to empathise and this is your achievement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
To reiterate I doubt one can, at this time, truly forsake former gender in adoption of a new one. I believe that the 'TS' label stands as more accurate than either 'male' or 'female'. Still, I would ask one thing: should you never be able to be considered as one might be if born as such a gender, would this truly be a shame?


Here CuriousLord I entirely agree with you, nobody can truly forsake one gender for another. I am not forsaking one gender for another. Would it make it any easier if I explained that I am one incomplete gender - female? What I am forsaking is my male gender role in society for a female gender role, and certain masculine physical characteristics for female physical characteristics in order to be the same as a naturally born female. The label TS indicates the medical condition, the way your mind communicates that there is something seriously wrong with your body and through this with the way other people perceive you. It does not define you as a person.

In direct response to your question I don't see this as a shame that I am never going to be perceived exactly the same as a naturally born female. But then again I don't see much difference either. Naturally born women can have masculine physical features, they can have facial hair, quite a few have deep voices which doesn't quite resonate at the female pitch (130Hz-160Hz) but closer to the lower male pitch (90Hz-120Hz), angular jawlines, small underdeveloped breasts and so on. So too can men have feminine physical characteristics, overdeveloped breast tissue, a lack of body hair, higher voices, and so on.

When you come to think of it, gender is a complex subject area. You have women who suffer from Turner's Syndrome, boys who suffer from Klinefelter's Syndrome, you have people who are intersexed. How many men can truly say they are 100% masculine? How many women can claim to be 100% feminine?

But there's another reason why I don't see it as a shame. I am just as naturally a human being as any man or woman you could care to meet. This comes down to more biology, man is an animal with the largest penis in the animal kingdom, our body's are built for reproduction, humans don't have a mating season, and they can reproduce as and when they want. I am a natural product of evolution my biological role is not to reproduce and I am part of a system of genetic coding which ultimately prevents Man from overpopulating this planet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
I would ask you forgive me, should my view seem cruel; still, I would argue that your personal identity is more becoming of a truthful sentiment than either gender identity.


And thus, bearing in mind what I have written above, there may be more truth in your argument than you realise. Your view isn't cruel at all. I don't even think you could imagine the views I came up with about myself in my younger days when I was still struggling to understand who I really was. At times I perceived myself as some sort of monster coming out of a 1950's horror movie. However I maintain that I am female, not a naturally born female, not even at present a complete female, but nonetheless a female and this is the solid basis of my own personal identity.

I'd like to add that I'm really happy you posted what you did, I found some of the points you made and your reasoning to be very interesting and thought-provoking.

Thank you.

< Message edited by stella40 -- 6/11/2007 8:10:01 AM >

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I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/11/2007 9:38:08 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		<fast reply>

...i've been thinking about the dynamic betwen self acceptence and acceptence by others. i know a post-op TS back in the auld country. When she walks in a room people in virtually all cases treat her as a woman.....looking back, this is entirely down to the fact that she quite frankly doesn't give a rats arse what people think. She has achieved what she wanted to achieve via surgery and the rest.....now she is just getting on with things. Perhaps acceptence will never come while one wants it.....perhaps it only comes when you don't care whether or not it comes.

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: when does a boy become a girl? - 6/11/2007 11:00:20 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		There are several stages/types of acceptance at work here;

1) Self acceptance
2) Acceptance from family, friends, workmates (the pre-existing social support network)
3) Acceptance within general society - both in social and work life
4) Acceptance by a romantic partner

Really this thread is about number (4) rather than (1) to (3).

(1) is absolutely requisite. (2)and (3) are more or less requisite to some extent, though few come through those stages unscathed.

(4) is the more difficult, which is why I think its worth discussing.

E

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Profile   Post #: 79
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