quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
It might be time to consider that if President Bush is so stupid, then what are you? He has been fighting his war with your money for about five years now. He has moved the country in the direction he wanted it to go
Yeah and I don't like it so I'm just going to call up to the White House and demand it stop.  President Bush IS stupid and he has taken this country in directions he never should have but what can we as individuals do other than what some of us already do (get involved at our local level, write letters, etc.)?  I resent the implication that I'm of the same mind or on the same moral level as Bush simply because I "allow" him to "fight this war" with our money.  What do you seriously think individual citizens can do? 
 
We have some really good choices for President right now, from both parties. Most of them have about 1% support. They have so little support, because We the Sheeple, are so arrogant, that we can't give the devil his due, and end up voting for anyone, that isn't someone.
Speak for yourself.  I agree there are lots of "sheeple" but I am definitely not part of the group.  To me, "sheeple" are the ones who blindly follow and believe in their government, defending it's actions no matter how idiotic they are.  Seeing the problems and doing what is within your own limited power to do is not being one of the "sheeple."  Just because I, as a citizen, am basically helpless to influence the actions of my government does not mean I agree with or back them.  There's a big difference there. 
 
And as far as this 1% support business, I don't remember anyone asking me who I support.  It's the same nonsense every 4 years.  Several good candidates appear, the media basically tells us that none of the "good" ones have any support, people swallow it and think if they support their real choice it will be a waste, and thus they fall by the wayside.  How can we as individuals cause this huge tidalwave of support for the candidate we really like?  Perhaps we can on a local level, but again that's not going to translate to real influence.   I disagree with the idea that the good candidates have so little support  because of arrogance.  I think it's because people who really do support them just don't have any voice.
 
Rudy, Mitt, and the new kid, with the "I'm a Fredneck" slogan ... Hillary, Barak, Edwards, Al "I really won" ... does anyone really think they are going to change anything?
I don't think most politicians are going to change anything...at least not for the better.  But, I still attempt to seek out candidates for local, state, and national offices that I believe will do his/her best.  I work on a grassroots level to make a difference, campaign for ones I truly believe in, etc.  It has NEVER made a real difference yet I continue to do so.
 
It will be OK though, because at least half of We the Sheeple will be able to call them stupid for at least four more years.
Would that I didn't need to call them stupid but, if the past is any indicator of the future (and it IS), then "my" candidate will never be elected and I'll be stuck being represented by a President I don't support, didn't vote in, and who will do things I find morally reprehensible.  And then someone will come along and call me part of the arrogant sheeple because I didn't support someone better.............slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
Emma Goldman

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

President Bush took the country in the direction he and his wanted it to go. You didn't want it that way, and neither did I ... but does that make him "stupid?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I'm sorry fargle, I think you are wrong.

President Bush is a front man. At the time, everyone wanted a "common man" ... isn't it true that he was actually called "folksy?"

Iraq is exactly what they want it to be ... it will go on, and on, and on ... which is exactly what they want. It makes you feel good to think that they were just fools who got up involved in a war we can't win. It makes you feel superior to think you are in the know.

You want to talk history? How many historical figures put small numbers of troops in harms way, with obvious defeat, to stir a nation to war ... to rally the cause, to convince the people, that danger was around each corner?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Caitlyn - youre young, you have a lot to learn about how things get done I suspect.

There are few on this board who's contribution I value more, but in this instance, I'm going to respectfuly not agree.

Thank you for the response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
President Bush took the country in the direction he and his wanted it to go. You didn't want it that way, and neither did I ... but does that make him "stupid?"
I was merely parroting YOUR word back at you.  You said if he is "stupid," what does that make me.  I used your word in my reply, simple as that.
 
Go ahead, think that way if you wish. See the opposition as "stupid" if you wish ... but the bottom line ... you can't do that, and not be sheeple. You might resent that ... it is, what it is.
I don't generally refer to the "opposition" as anything.  I don't consider any group as the "opposition" necessarily.  I have always been very vocal about how ignorant I feel it is to attempt to divide all the people in our country into tiny little "us and them," "left and right" groups.  I don't see all people who disagree with me as "stupid" at all.  As a matter of fact, I take pride in the fact that I can see others' viewpoints and their merits.  Calling them the "opposition" doesn't accomplish anything.  And I really do think you have a mixed-up definition of "sheeple."  It means people who, like sheep, blindly follow without questioning.  Referring to someone as "stupid" does not sheeple make, dear.

What can a single person do? How about admit that disrespecting and underestimating the opposition (as in, thinking they are just stupid), is a clear path to allowing them to kick our ass, again, and again, and again.
Again, that word "opposition."  Very futile to see things in those terms, in my opinion.  You have apparently disregarded my entire post and chosen to pick out the word "stupid" which was your word that I only used to make my point.  Far from "underestimating" Bush and his ilk, I believe them to be quite evil in many ways.  I do not "underestimate" their power at all.  Look what it has been within their power to do lo these many years. 

The Republicans will nominate the guy that will win, instead of the guy that is the best choice ... because they are sheeple, and can't possibly let that "stupid" Democrat win. The Democrats will select the guy/girl that will win, instead of the guy/girl that is the best choice ... because they are sheeple and can't possibly let that "stupid" Republican win.
I think I can see the point you are trying to make.  I consider people sheeple who are so partisan that they refuse to back the best candidate if he/she is of another party than they are.  People who identify so strongly with one party/ideology that they refuse to see the "other side's" points.  People who blindly support their government no matter how wrong they are.  Yes, to me those are sheeple.  I have never espoused opinions that would indicate I think like this.
 
The path to change, is to admit that change begins at home. If you are a Democrat (for example), you might just have to work to nominate someone that will be good for the country ... instead of the guy that will "beat those other guys." This might lead to several election defeats ... but eventually the point will get through ... we are no longer interrested in just winning for our party ... we are interrested in winning for the country.
Exactly....the same point I'm making.  And, in the body of my earlier post, you will read that I do work for change at home.  Sitting back and whining and moaning accomplish nothing.  All the efforts of me and people like me haven't made great accomplishments either to be honest.  We work to change things and just get steam-rolled come election time when the guy we consider the worst candidate wins.  But, at least we tried and thus have a right to bitch when it works out in a way we don't like.
 
Point ... even many more years of the same that we have now, will not destroy us ... the practical might say that it's a small price to pay, in order to give the people a real choice. The problem we have now, is that we are unwilling to force change at home, and instead, are only willing to force change on "those other guys" ... change that we will never get. 
How exactly do you propose we "force" this "change"?  You seem to be so idealistic as if to say if we really wanted to change or improve anything, why don't we just go do it?  What have you done on this front, I'm curious?  I've stated some of the things I've become involved with to attempt to influence my little sphere of the world.  Other than rant, what have you accomplished?............slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

President Bush took the country in the direction he and his wanted it to go. You didn't want it that way, and neither did I ... but does that make him "stupid?"

No, being barely literate makes him stupid.
Thank you..........slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Iraq is exactly what they want it to be ... it will go on, and on, and on ... which is exactly what they want.
And "they" would be who?.........luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
I was merely parroting YOUR word back at you.  You said if he is "stupid," what does that make me.  I used your word in my reply, simple as that.

... clip ... 
 
How exactly do you propose we "force" this "change"?  You seem to be so idealistic as if to say if we really wanted to change or improve anything, why don't we just go do it?  What have you done on this front, I'm curious?  I've stated some of the things I've become involved with to attempt to influence my little sphere of the world.  Other than rant, what have you accomplished?............slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
What I said was:
It might be time to consider that if President Bush is so stupid, then what are you?
Which is clearly both a general, parenthetical, and illustrative question ... the generic you ... as in the generic "We" the people. If I offended you, I apologize directly to you ... and in this, I'm not talking about the generic you.
I know...I was paraphrasing there....you didn't offend me in anyway and so what if you did?  There's no guarantee I'll never get offended, esp. on these forums. 

Moving forward ... forcing change is easier than some might think. The very point idea that we can't do it, is a major contributing factor to why it never happens. But, it has to be change from within. A few quick points.
In the last election, Democrats supposedly voted in people that were against the war ... supposedly. But, they also kept a bunch of people that voted for the war, and are full of excuses now. I watched Hillary Clinton in the debate, talking about this being President Bush's war. Ha! She voted for it. Now, she is retracting, spinning, turning circles, and she is the front runner
Yes and she's in good company too as far as retracting, spinning, turning circles.  They ALL do that, Democrat or Republican.  It's not a partisan thing. 
Apparently, many Democrats think words speak louder than actions. Harry Reid voted for it also ... and now he claims defeat.
Again, the same thing could be said of the Republicans and their leaders.  They have nearly ALL lied and waffled.  It is not strictly one "side" or the other.

So, want to have change? Then Democrats, should have kicked out all the Democrats that voted for the war. Sure, that will give the Republicans clear control of Congress, but a)Democrats clean up their own house, b)Democrats send a clear message that actions speak louder than words, c)there is nothing to lose, since "winning Congress" got anti-war Democrats absolutely nothing in the end.
Yes, but people are too concerned with PARTISAN politics to allow this to happen.  I agree with the point you're making but as long as people see things in black/white, liberal/conservative, dem/repub we're never going to accomplish this.   

If you are a Democrat and want change in Iraq, you have to vote for one of the candidates that voted against the entire mess ... period. If this means that your guy gets killed by a NeoCon in the next election, what have you really lost? Does anyone really believe that Hillary, Obama or Edwards, is going to get us out of Iraq? All they are going to do is get in office, find out how much power and influence they have by keeping us in, and make up reasons to stay.
Now, you're learning............

Democrats telling their Democratic Senators, that this vote will cost them their job ... and Republicans doing the same
And, after all, that IS what most of them are exclusively concerned about in the end. 

They WILL listen, when it's change from within. They will not when it's Republicans calling Democrats stupid, and vice versa.
Agreed.  I've often thought that if these are the people who are supposed to be representing us all and they act like the childish, partisan fools that they do, is their any hope?  I go back and forth on this.  I was once young and idealistic as you are but have aged and grown more jaded.  Not so jaded as to no longer care or try to make a difference, but it's just tiring sometimes because the issues seem too overwhelming.  I see your points and I agree.  It may help you to work on some of your much-justified frustration to get involved in some political activity in your local area.  At least you can do what you are capable of.  Good luck...........luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I'm sorry fargle, I think you are wrong.
 
President Bush is a front man. At the time, everyone wanted a "common man" ... isn't it true that he was actually called "folksy?"
 
Iraq is exactly what they want it to be ... it will go on, and on, and on ... which is exactly what they want. It makes you feel good to think that they were just fools who got up involved in a war we can't win. It makes you feel superior to think you are in the know.
 
You want to talk history? How many historical figures put small numbers of troops in harms way, with obvious defeat, to stir a nation to war ... to rally the cause, to convince the people, that danger was around each corner?

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

See, this is where people have to be Americans first, and want their way second.
 
I think you know that I don't agree with you on immigration. Not by a long shot, and that should be clear by now. It should be equally clear that the vast majority of Americans agree with you, and don't agree with me.
 
So, I put aside the ego of wanting my own way, abide by majority rule ... and give the majority opinion a chance. If you are right, we will know. If not, we will know that too.

Thats why, even thought the death of the bill, is death for my views, I still think it's a good day for the people.