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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 9:43:41 AM   
StructuredKing


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline 		But in any case, women and children were killed at Waco. And at least one hooker at Chappataqua.

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 9:44:30 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		..oh.....i'm nippy when the mood is upon me

"Left or right, they're politicians. They lie. They destroy peoples lives. "

...perhaps true, but lies come in all shapes and sizes. Some really are less bad than others...........if  we fail to see those differences then we fail in our duty as an electorate.


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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:02:38 AM   
StructuredKing


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..oh.....i'm nippy when the mood is upon me

"Left or right, they're politicians. They lie. They destroy peoples lives. "

...perhaps true, but lies come in all shapes and sizes. Some really are less bad than others...........if  we fail to see those differences then we fail in our duty as an electorate.




So what you're saying is, we should choose a lesser liar, over a greater liar- it's no longer the best man wins, it's the one who's lies are the least damaging? Democrats- LBJ kept us in Vietnam. Victim disarmament laws have done a fundamentally wonderful of getting law abiding citizens killed, and keeping criminals fat and happy. Welfare has destroyed the lives of those it was supposed to help- go to any low-income housing area. Republicans- vote for anything war, or military-industrial complex related. They confuse multi-national corporations with small businesses, and think that the multinationals are who they need to give tax breaks for.

Is it any wonder why I'm an anarchist?

< Message edited by StructuredKing -- 6/14/2007 10:04:22 AM >

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:06:31 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StructuredKing


So what you're saying is, we should choose a lesser liar, over a greater liar- it's no longer the best man wins, it's the one who's lies are the least damaging?


......now you've got it. If all politicos lie (and assuming we're staying within the bounds of representative democracy) then the only sane approach is damage limitation.

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:11:45 AM   
StructuredKing


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: StructuredKing


So what you're saying is, we should choose a lesser liar, over a greater liar- it's no longer the best man wins, it's the one who's lies are the least damaging?


......now you've got it. If all politicos lie (and assuming we're staying within the bounds of representative democracy) then the only sane approach is damage limitation.


Or maybe it's just an indicator that the Republic is dead, and it's time to try something else. ;-)

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:16:16 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...im not sure any system exists that will eliminate the tendency of unscupulous humans to lie from time to time. That particular quirk of human nature will require something more than a mere political shift.

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:18:42 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StructuredKing

Between Waco Willy Clinton,

Left or right, they're politicians. They lie. They destroy peoples lives.


How I so dearly love the propoganda and outright lies I run into.

What exactly did President Clinton do about Waco that was so awful?

Does anybody actually think the POTUS is briefed in advance on every ATF warrant?

So Clinton first heard about Waco on 2/28/93. Probably the first he knew about it was that ATF agents serving a warrant were involved in a ferocious firefight and that 4 agents were dead.

Now what would you do? Federal law enforcement agents had been attacked while serving a warrant. Do you stop everything and investigate every little detail of the ATF's actions for errors? Of course not. You surround the compound and take control of the situation. The presence of so many minor children is clearly the only reason an all out assault did not happen sometime in early March.

Should the POTUS pay close attention to the ravings of an admitted pedophile and his followers over the reports of his own agents? Of course not.

Therefor President Clinton showed great patience in allowing the standoff to stretch out for 7 weeks. Clearly negotiations were tried and failed to get anywhere.

That Koresh and his followers chose suicide and murder by fire over surrender is clearly not something the POTUS could reasonably anticipate and couldn't allow to color his decision making process otherwise every fringe group in the US could use that doomsday threat to break any and all laws with impunity.

So what exactly about the way President Clinton handled Waco was so bad?

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:27:19 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I can vote for anyone in the primary election as an Independant voter (Un-enrolled) so I'll vote for Ron Paul to "send a message".
I like him because he's a non-interventionist.
He doesn't think we should have Troops in more than 130 countries and that foreign countries should solve their own problems.
And he wants to get us out of Nafta, the "U.N." and other bad deals like that.
No wonder so many Dems and Repubs don't like him! Big Business makes Big Bucks off of that kind of stuff!
One thing's for sure with Ron Paul, you know it won't be "business as usual" if he gets in office and that's why I and so many other people like him!
There's a lot of areas in govt. that can be cut or done away with.
We could easily cut the State Dept in half. Do away with "Energy" and "Education"
Do away with all those "foreign aid" programs. If they were working why are we still doing them 40 years later?
If we're going to do them at all there should be a five year time limit on them not perpetuity!
They're like "Perpetual Aid" programs, welfare for foreign countries!
If someone was giving you $100k per year for 10 years would you one day say, "OK, I'm all set now, I don't need your money anymore"?
I SERIOUSLY doubt it!
That's what's happening in all those "foreign aid" programs.
And the only ones benefitting from them are the Lobbyists on "K" st, Big Businesses. the "Governments" that steal the money and Mercedes Benz Dealers.
It's the same people who benefit from this graft year after year!
Our govt. is doing a lot of things that it shouldn't be doing!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:36:02 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Sometimes not owning a TV causes me to miss things that I wish I had caught.
I'd like to see more of Ron Paul in action as it were...(and yeah, one of the most unfortunate name associations ever).


And here I thought I was the only dude on this site that could survive absent mainstream television. You've impressed me, brother.

Anyways.....I find it totally laughable that there's still folks out there who think that we're going to be able to maintain all these entitlement programs. They're in for the surprise of their life.

With all the debt piling up and an economy /GDP-growth based almost entirely on consumer spending -- brought on by an artificial equity bubble -- Ron Paul alluding to the skeletonization of both federal and state governments brings a fresh sense of reality to the table.

Forget terrorism, Iraq, Iran and illegal immigration, Ron Paul is the only candidate -- Democrat or Republican -- that I've read about who's addressing our crumbling financial infrastructure. If that doesn't tell you something, what will? How can currency depreciation to the tune of 32 to 40 percent in the last seven years not make the headlines or be talked about by the mainstream candidates?







- R


Edited to add -- This thread is awesome......because two years ago when I first brought up Ron Paul as an example here, of a straight-forward, honest politician, concerned mainly with America, most of the responses seemed like they were coming from owls; because even folks from Texas didn't know him or much about him. Now it seems more folks are beginning to take notice .


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/14/2007 10:54:24 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:50:46 AM   
StructuredKing


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline 		Anytime you pump CS into an enclosed space, knowing that there's children without gas masks inside- it's attempted murder. I've spent 30 seconds exposed to MILD concentrations of CS, and it's the most horrible sensation ever.

As for the murder, and "suicide", it was much more likely the known pyrotechnic "side-effects" of highly flammable military CS.

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 10:53:42 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 6/14/2007 10:54:36 AM >

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 11:00:05 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		Structured King,
Anytime you're not feeling as enraged and homicidal as you might like to be, take a look at the documentary entitled "Waco: Rules of Engagement."  If you think you can't get any more disgusted by our wonderful Congress full of idiots, this video may prove you wrong.  They never let the facts get in the way of their uninformed opinions.......slave luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 11:18:32 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.


Yanno.....

Nearly every time I read one of your posts, I feel like I'm reading something mouthed from Hannity's pet parrot. Any time it deals with foreign policy, your rhetoric is derived solely from neocon-status-quo cable television programming.

How in the fuck do you equate a non-boogeyman, normalized relations, non-interventionist, non-aggressive, non-militaristic way of thinking, to isolationism and how the republicans were back in the 30's?

The only folks making that kind of comparison are your friends from the Fox news channel.




- R




< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/14/2007 11:25:40 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 11:27:45 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.


I think that there is probably a significant difference between being the guy urging people to get the hell off of the runaway train, and being an 'isolationist' as it is usually meant in the perjorative sense...
Those isolationists in the preWWII era were supposedly of the opinion that the world's squabbles were not our problem...
I get the sense that Ron Paul feels that they are very much our problem... he just differs on the effectiveness of the current solutions.

Which may loop around to 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' sort of feeling among some liberals.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 11:31:54 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.


Yanno.....

Nearly every time I read one of your posts, I feel like I'm reading something mouthed from Hannity's pet parrot. Any time it deals with foreign policy, your rhetoric is derived solely from neocon-status-quo cable television programming.

How in the fuck do you equate a non-boogeyman, normalized relations, non-interventionist, non-aggressive, non-militaristic way of thinking, to isolationism and how the republicans were back in the 30's?

The only folks making that kind of comparison are your friends from the Fox news channel.



No. It is just what is obvious. Ron Paul does not want the US to help Israel. He doesn't want the US to be involved in anything in the mid-east. And it seems he really doesn't care if Al-Queda or Iran or Syria or any other hostile regime completely takes over the mid-east. It's the same BS policy we had towards Nazi Germany.... "leave them alone and maybe they will leave us alone" mentality.

That kind of policy I believe would be enormously dangerous to the security and the economy of the United States as well as the westurn bloc.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 11:34:15 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...i blame those dangerous socialist-liberal-commy-libertarian isolationists myself. Good job we have the neocons to turn to in these times of troubles.............

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 11:49:51 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.


Yanno.....

Nearly every time I read one of your posts, I feel like I'm reading something mouthed from Hannity's pet parrot. Any time it deals with foreign policy, your rhetoric is derived solely from neocon-status-quo cable television programming.

How in the fuck do you equate a non-boogeyman, normalized relations, non-interventionist, non-aggressive, non-militaristic way of thinking, to isolationism and how the republicans were back in the 30's?

The only folks making that kind of comparison are your friends from the Fox news channel.



No. It is just what is obvious. Ron Paul does not want the US to help Israel. He doesn't want the US to be involved in anything in the mid-east. And it seems he really doesn't care if Al-Queda or Iran or Syria or any other hostile regime completely takes over the mid-east. It's the same BS policy we had towards Nazi Germany.... "leave them alone and maybe they will leave us alone" mentality.

That kind of policy I believe would be enormously dangerous to the security and the economy of the United States as well as the westurn bloc.


Yeah bra......

Keeping drawing comparisons between Al-Queda, Israel and the former Nazi state -- It's like that old fairy tale about the emperors new clothes....there's no truth behind the facade.

Its rhetoric parroted from cable news but never thought-through to its logical conclusion.

There's nothing that irritates me more than folks who are easily manipulated by corporate-owned cable news networks - Think for yourself.





- R



< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/14/2007 11:59:52 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 12:10:39 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.


Yanno.....

Nearly every time I read one of your posts, I feel like I'm reading something mouthed from Hannity's pet parrot. Any time it deals with foreign policy, your rhetoric is derived solely from neocon-status-quo cable television programming.

How in the fuck do you equate a non-boogeyman, normalized relations, non-interventionist, non-aggressive, non-militaristic way of thinking, to isolationism and how the republicans were back in the 30's?

The only folks making that kind of comparison are your friends from the Fox news channel.



No. It is just what is obvious. Ron Paul does not want the US to help Israel. He doesn't want the US to be involved in anything in the mid-east. And it seems he really doesn't care if Al-Queda or Iran or Syria or any other hostile regime completely takes over the mid-east. It's the same BS policy we had towards Nazi Germany.... "leave them alone and maybe they will leave us alone" mentality.

That kind of policy I believe would be enormously dangerous to the security and the economy of the United States as well as the westurn bloc.


Yeah bra......

Keeping drawing comparisons between Al-Queda, Israel and the former Nazi state -- It's like that old fairy tale about the emperors new clothes....there's no truth behind the facade.

Its rhetoric parroted from cable news but never thought-through to its logical conclusion.

There's nothing that irritates me more than folks who are easily manipulated by corporate-owned cable news networks - Think for yourself.





- R




Like it or not, dude. We are addicted to oil. Our economy runs on oil. And it will take decades for us to get off that tit. We cannot allow the world's largest oil reserves to fall into the hands of governments that are hostile to us and our allies. Doing so will put our economy at the mercy of our enemies.

Jimmy Carter made a speech when he was president that the US must find alternative sources of energy. For 30 years the federal government (both Republican and Democrat) has done absolutely nothing. Yes, the US needs to get off that mid-east dependance. But that can't happen overnight. It took the nation of Brazil over 3 decades to become energy independant. It'll take us even longer because our economy is much more complicated and strongly rooted into global politics.

We cannot do as Ron Paul suggests and pull out of the mid-east completely. Every American knows this. And this is why Ron Paul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the election.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 1:23:25 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why does the left wing like this guy so much? Because he's anti-war? The guy is the most right-wing candidate in both fields. Sure he is anti-war, but he is also in favor of completely sealing the borders and pulling out of our trade agreements. He also wants to dramatically cut social programs in the government.

He is an isolationist. He represents what the GOP was back in the 1920s and 1930s. And it is a philosophy that just didn't work....and some argue it made World War II worse.


Yanno.....

Nearly every time I read one of your posts, I feel like I'm reading something mouthed from Hannity's pet parrot. Any time it deals with foreign policy, your rhetoric is derived solely from neocon-status-quo cable television programming.

How in the fuck do you equate a non-boogeyman, normalized relations, non-interventionist, non-aggressive, non-militaristic way of thinking, to isolationism and how the republicans were back in the 30's?

The only folks making that kind of comparison are your friends from the Fox news channel.



No. It is just what is obvious. Ron Paul does not want the US to help Israel. He doesn't want the US to be involved in anything in the mid-east. And it seems he really doesn't care if Al-Queda or Iran or Syria or any other hostile regime completely takes over the mid-east. It's the same BS policy we had towards Nazi Germany.... "leave them alone and maybe they will leave us alone" mentality.

That kind of policy I believe would be enormously dangerous to the security and the economy of the United States as well as the westurn bloc.


Yeah bra......

Keeping drawing comparisons between Al-Queda, Israel and the former Nazi state -- It's like that old fairy tale about the emperors new clothes....there's no truth behind the facade.

Its rhetoric parroted from cable news but never thought-through to its logical conclusion.

There's nothing that irritates me more than folks who are easily manipulated by corporate-owned cable news networks - Think for yourself.





- R




Like it or not, dude. We are addicted to oil. Our economy runs on oil. And it will take decades for us to get off that tit. We cannot allow the world's largest oil reserves to fall into the hands of governments that are hostile to us and our allies. Doing so will put our economy at the mercy of our enemies.

Jimmy Carter made a speech when he was president that the US must find alternative sources of energy. For 30 years the federal government (both Republican and Democrat) has done absolutely nothing. Yes, the US needs to get off that mid-east dependance. But that can't happen overnight. It took the nation of Brazil over 3 decades to become energy independant. It'll take us even longer because our economy is much more complicated and strongly rooted into global politics.

We cannot do as Ron Paul suggests and pull out of the mid-east completely. Every American knows this. And this is why Ron Paul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the election.


Cyberdude, are you saying you're in favor of having Troops in over 130 countries, giving foreign aid handouts to more than 130 countries to the tune of over $80B per year not including Iraq, remaining in things like "NAFTA", CAFTA, the "U.N.", and a one way "trade deal" with China?
Man, PLEASE give me a little ISOLATIONISM if that's what you want to call it!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Ron Paul on "The Colbert Report" - 6/14/2007 1:28:53 PM   
StructuredKing


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Structured King,
Anytime you're not feeling as enraged and homicidal as you might like to be, take a look at the documentary entitled "Waco: Rules of Engagement."  If you think you can't get any more disgusted by our wonderful Congress full of idiots, this video may prove you wrong.  They never let the facts get in the way of their uninformed opinions.......slave luci


I've seen the video. Nauseating, but politically eye opening.

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 40
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