RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks)

RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (Full Version)

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chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 7:34:09 AM)
sea said; It took about 34 posts for any constructive discussion to begin on this topic. The constructive discussion in this thread did not occur until the initial energy was diffused. Whoaaaa, hang on there judge and jury of the constructive consenus. i came on board on page one and spoke to the OP, addressing issues put forth for discussion, relaying my feelings to said issues, how i felt it related to me, and my thoughts of why i felt such. May not have been how you would approach the OP, how you felt about it, how you would speak your own feelings and opinions, but that doesn't negate the thoughts of others as non-constructive. i have my style of approach, you have yours, and the next person has theirs, doesn't mean we don't have something to add to the conversation which might stimulate thought. Littlesarbonn and cloudboy had some excellent thoughts to share on the subject also, but since they were also in the useless thirty four, such holds no meaning apparently. And what the heck is wrong with a little energy!? Hearing how others feel about a certain issue in these forums takes the shape of many applications of presentation. Simply because you may not see something constructive according to your opinion, certainly doesn't mean such does not exist for someone else. i abhore the whole dismissal attitude we often see in these forums because it may not align with our own thought patterns. Yes, the thread took on a more humorous tone after the usual one-liner slap on the back standing ovations and the typical quick slap dismissal of anything already offered. Sometimes such just screams for a little side track interjection of lighthearted stimulus, it helps to break up the often seen, stone serious, smug, self-righteous, know it all temperment which also exists in these forums. A little laughter ain't so bad, and many a good point gets conveyed in the process, can even be constructive. What i have seen here, it a lot of "you" defending yourself within current and past positions in relation to others you have had exchange with. Constructive? Sure, because in the course of, you share thoughts which may enlighten, but that doesn't mean everyone cares about your past interaction with others, or about your opinions at all. i won't simply dismiss what you say here in your back and forth with those you have a history with. In the course of, something does get said, i merely ask that you in turn, don't simply negate the thoughts of others because they may not parallel your own, or align with how you would present them. Many different materials and approaches are used in construction, there is no single blue print of command. Respectfully, chia* (the pet)

MistressDolly -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 7:44:50 AM)
Very diplomatic.

chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 7:52:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDolly Very diplomatic. Dearest MistressDolly, Thank You Mamm Respectfully, chia* (the pet)

KaramelGoddess -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 7:52:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea quote: ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess **ooo LadyIce I agree with you...all I can say now is yet another can of worms has been opened and I'm getting My bug spray ready! LOL! Good luck lends you Her flame-retardant suit ~Kara I think I have a fair track record of being able to disagree without flaming. Therefore, to quote our president, I think you have misunderestimated me. I am wondering if the post above took a shot at me. If it did, I am sorry you felt the need to do so. Cheers, Sea Sea, All I can say is that you have proven to be a very self-centred person. You seem to think that a lot of posts here are directed towards you. I was replying to LadyIce, not to you. And I think her post was meant for others who have critiqued the OP, not just you. I'm really sorry if you think that so many of the generalizations made have been made about your posts. I actually really respected your point of view before this thread. Now I'm not sure if I do any longer. And with that said..I'm going on vacation! Ciao! ~Kara/BeachBootyliciousBum**

MistressDolly -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 8:13:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDolly Very diplomatic. Dearest MistressDolly, Thank You Mamm Respectfully, chia* (the pet) you're welcome. Mind your spelling, chia... *wink

DiannaVesta -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 9:07:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn Very recently, I have been very proactive about approaching the woman I am interested in, instead of waiting for some holy grail moment of having her figure out through the ether that I'm actually interested in her. What I discovered is that I still can breeze right past the fakes, the wankers and the wannabes who are populating the majority of the masses. It takes a bit of time to prove oneself, but if you don't actually try, she's NEVER going to just somehow find you and make that connection. I think this is a good approach and that if you’re serious you will step forward and make yourself known. Another problem I see often with you and men like you are that you automatically assume that they’ll see that you’re submissive, with some reasonable experience and then pounce on you. This might happen with some novice domina’s but those of us that have been around the block a few times will observe and see what that sub is really made of. I personally will hold out for those that are truly submissive towards me but strong willed and when they focus on something, like me, wild horses don’t stop them. Saying your serious and actually proving it is two different things. The one thing most of us women get a lot of is words, talk and no damn action to support it. In these past few years I have noticed some trends and I think must of it is that people have been online now for a while and that submissive jerks, wanking wanna be’s have learned more tricks then we want to keep up with. I’m hold out and playing hard ball. They don’t like it they can move on down the line. I know what I have to offer so its up to them to prove to ME that they are truly worthy of entering my world. I have a slave in training right now and I must say that its refreshing because I say jump and he ask “how high?” No whining, no excuses, nothing, just a nice steady interest in proving that his intentions are good. I was at first put off and unsure because he ran the gamut of high profile professionals even appearing in photos etc. I’m thinking that I’m another notch in his collar so I purposely created a challenge. He knows what he wants and that’s me. I admire his persistence and adoration. I’m not sure I’d be interested otherwise.

DiannaVesta -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 9:20:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyClaudiaVan quote: ORIGINAL: maledave7 I feel that I need to be respectful toward all Dommes and Mistresses. How I treat others, would show how I would treat my future Domme. It is submissives like you who attract us. We like men who like women and are respectful of all people, particulary women. There is something about a man with a submissive heart that shines brightly. You and a few here shine. That is very true and to be honest I meet very few here. There are a few that shine through but there is no doubt in my mind that this place is filled with a garden or beautiful truly wonderful dominant women and a whole garden of dick weeds. In fact I am really more here for the women; their support and intelligent feed back then what most of the males on here have to say. In any of my venues, my forums, sites or otherwise a male acted disrespectful to ANY woman he would be ban. That’s a fact.

addicted2it -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 9:33:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta I think this is a good approach and that if you’re serious you will step forward and make yourself known. Another problem I see often with you and men like you are that you automatically assume that they’ll see that you’re submissive, with some reasonable experience and then pounce on you. This might happen with some novice domina’s but those of us that have been around the block a few times will observe and see what that sub is really made of. You make a good point, Diana, and I also belive that a submissive has to make himself or herself known by their words, but also by their actions. quote: personally will hold out for those that are truly submissive towards me but strong willed and when they focus on something, like me, wild horses don’t stop them. Saying your serious and actually proving it is two different things. The one thing most of us women get a lot of is words, talk and no damn action to support it. During initial contact, I am always polite and refrain from making reference to anything specifically having to do with dominance and submission, but instead I wait for her to introduce the subject. If there is an opening and a possibility that the relationship could progress beyond a friendly discussion, I will always take the initiative to proceed in a slow but steady pace. It is all a part of the courtship and the dance, but there is a time and a place for everthing; and pushing too hard will often prove to be the wrong approach as well. I have been lucky-enough to have made a great many contacts with Femmedommes in the last several months. Most encouraged me to persue them, but when they stopped resonding to my messages, I simply lost interest in them as well. Unfortunately, this does happen often to both Femmedommes and submissives, and the disappointment often effects how we approach our future dealings with others.

undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 9:42:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet sea said; It took about 34 posts for any constructive discussion to begin on this topic. The constructive discussion in this thread did not occur until the initial energy was diffused. Whoaaaa, hang on there judge and jury of the constructive consenus. Hi Chia, Oops. Indeed there were posts by Little Sarbon, Cloud Boy, yourself, Lady Hugs, Hereyesupon you and perhaps others that explained thoughts and feelings before the discussion as a whole became more balanced. The shift in energy or towards discussion was not sudden but a drift that occurred over several posts. In my opinion, the general energy of the thread began to settle down after that by Lady Pact in post 46 and others that followed. So, yes, I consider my first set of posts to have occurred at a time when the energy was still riled up and consider some of my posts to contribute to this energy. I do not mean to say that no one offered any discussion until the energy calmed. What I mean to say is that there was little engaging discussion where people listened to or responded to thoughts behind feelings. In majority of the first several posts, the energy was defensive and exchanges back and forth did not address the matter of discussion. If the thread had stopped on the first or second page, I don't think it could be said to have the kind of discussion we can now consider it to have. By backing up the post number from 46 to 34 to include those by Lady Hugs and Hereyesuponyou, I have given the wrong impression by excluding some posts that took a step further towards discussion and suggesting that I consider my posts exempt. I do not present my posts to be any higher and it would indeed be pretentious for me to hold my posts above those of others. Had I recognized at that time the impression I was conveying, I would have corrected it. That impression was inadvertent, for which I apologize. Cheers, Sea

pixelslave -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 9:46:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea quote: ORIGINAL: LadyIce This is the Ask A Mistress board, sea. I don't think the Mistresses here, need to get advice from submissives on what topics they wish to discuss. If you do not like the OP's topic, no need to read it or keep commenting on it. The OP had a right to start the topic and I have an issue with people that attempt to control or manipulate topics, because they are uncomfortable with them. If you do not like this topic, could it be because it hits to close to home? politesub, I agree with the other ladies you are sweet. If I have suggested that this topic should not have been created, I have misrepresented myself. I have a very lax position about what people can discuss in this forum. While I didn't necessarily object to it having being created, I did state that I was disappointed that certain statements had been made by the OP which to me seemed divisive between submissives and Dommes as opposed to bringing the two together where a common interest would seem to me to clearly exist between the two. I also stated that I was disappointed that disparaging references had been made regarding a number of unnamed submissives by the OP for posting in this forum. This forum seems to me to be a natural place for those who are submissive toward dominant women to post; particularly as they presumably have a common interest with the ladies who participate here in the D/s lifestyle and a POV worth sharing & discussing with their counterparts. quote: It took about 34 posts for any constructive discussion to begin on this topic. The constructive discussion in this thread did not occur until the initial energy was diffused. I think the reason is that the energy the topic contained is that of a rant against subs, which creates an us-versus-them air. While rants have an unwanted consequence--the us-versus-them air hinders communication--they serve a purpose. I do not object to rants and I do not object to the topic. I object to the generalizations in the original post because I do not (dis?)agree with them. And I feel some of these generalization are directed at me. It is fair for me to object and disagree. (Was the dis in this quote in blue an error Sea?) In general, I agree with your observations Sea. I cannot speak to your feelings about about the OP's generalizations being directed at you. As many were directed at submissives in general along with an unspecified number of submissives who regularly post in this forum that the OP had problems with, it is unclear to me who the comments were directed toward and that was my objection to some of what the OP had to say. It is unclear to me if I was included and thus, I question whether or not I should have been offended or not? [>:] Regardless, the OP did not seem to be a rant to me and was presented as more of a serious topic. A rant is typically stated as such when posted. [&:] I have great respect for Akasha, as some of her prior posts have inspired a great deal of thought on both sides of the coin. Thus my surprise to see this one which seemed to be headed in the opposite direction as Sea noted in his reference to the first 34 posts. I'm glad to see it has turned around since that point, yet I feel that a certain amount of damage has still been done which will discourage submissives from posting in this forum; at a minimum thinking twice before doing so. I think that is sad while there may be others who will be happy that could be the result. Note: No mention has been made that there are far less "do me" or "wanker" material posts than there were 6 months ago from subs, which I think shows great progress. If subs post less often, I think the quality of exchange that occurs in this forum as a whole will suffer as a result. But as is normal, I'm sure there will be those who will disagree. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image] - pixel

AAkasha -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 10:14:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet quote: This thread has only served to once again create a division between Dommes and submissives. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image] - pixel Ah.........What? Respectfully, chia* (the pet) What don't you understand and I'll try to explain it. In a nutshell, it created an "us" vs. "them" mentality, thus the divisiveness I was speaking of; the latter having nothing to do with a power exchange. Clear enough? [&:] - pixel The people that have seen it as an "us vs. them" mentality chose to look at it that way. Many others did not and this has turned into a great discussion and is still going. Sorry you could not see it that way. When I read a post that takes issues with ways femdoms behave, I don't immediately take offense. I consider the issue presented, look at my own behavior and measure it against the credibility of the OP and decide from there whether or not I want to chime in on it. No need to get offended if I don't think it applies to me. Akasha

AAkasha -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 10:16:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jonathan Always interested when You post, they read more like Sunday Times OpEd pieces than boards threads. Few & far between, but good always. Anyway, i just wanted to take the opportunity to mention this year's Cup finals. i assume You are still a Ducks fan. Caught everything except the 1st period of the 1st game and rooted for them the whole time & thought of You. Although i have to say, that hockey fetish of Yours is just a little scary. Hope You were at that final game & enjoyed the moment, Ma'am. Thanks - was there every step of the way and could not be happier. It's been a long time coming! Akasha

AAkasha -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 10:20:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck quote: The OP mentioned Dommes "expecting" gifts from a sub. I am 100% for giving thoughtful gifts to someone I care about, but to my mind if you demand a gift its not a gift, its a tribute. A gift is given freely for the purpose of making someone happy, and without the burden of expectation attached to it (on either side). I've had women on this site tell me that in order to meet them, I have to go to such-and-such a store and buy them such-and-such a brand of designer shoes for them. Thats not my idea of romance. I want to see that look of joy in my partner's eyes when I give them something they are not expecting, even if its just a flower. (If a Domme demanded a flower from her sub I wouldn't go so far as saying that is a "tribute"... but I also don't think it has much joy factor to it.) Ahhh, I see. This is where I differ then. While it isn't something I demand it is something I expect someone to do occassionally. Does that make sense? Perhaps I should say that it's the boy that does the small thoughtful things that is going to get my attention and appreciation much more than the boy that doesn't bother with doing the small thoughtful things. So while it is an expectation of sorts, it isn't something I'm going to demand verbally from someone. I look at it as no different than what you would do for anyone you would date or go to dinner at their home. It's simply common courtesy to bring flowers or a bottle of wine. Just as occassionally when dating someone you would give them a small thoughtful gift. Damn I wish I had known about this whole "demanding a pair of designer shoe" thing much sooner. Who neglected to send me that memo? I don't remember seeing it listed in the Big Book of Domly Domliness Rules. Perhaps it was in "Domination for Idiots". I hate it when I miss these kinds of things. [:)] The courting I mentioned has nothing to do with specific requests to buy specific items. It's about being generous in spirit and heart, and that includes buying or making gifts, as part of the courting process. It also goes both ways (nowadays) and I consider it an absolutely joy to be able to gift someone I am courting. That's probably another reason I think it's so stupid that many subs have decided they will wrinkle their nose at the prospect of any kind of gifting when pursuing a non-professional, potentially intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. I think one of the most exciting and rewarding stages in a relationship is picking out and giving thoughtful and appropriate gifts. Akasha

addicted2it -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 10:29:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave ...yet I feel that a certain amount of damage has still been done which will discourage submissives from posting in this forum; at a minimum thinking twice before doing so. I think that is sad while there may be others who will be happy that could be the result. If subs post less often, I think the quality of exchange that occurs in this forum as a whole will suffer as a result. But as is normal, I'm sure there will be those who will disagree. This is a little off-topic, but it has been my understanding that it is pefectly permissible for a submissive to post a question in the "As a Mistress" Forum. However, when I see that one Mistress has posed a question to other Mistresses, I will not engage in the discussion unless comments from submissive are specifically asked for. If another submissive decides on his or her own to become part of the discussion, and the Mistress chooses to engage in a dialog with that submissive, I see no reason why I cannot become a part of that discussion myself. In this case, I view my participation as implied permission. That said, I do not see any benefit at all to this Forum if submissives feel that they are not welcome to join in the discussion. I do believe that most, if not all, Femdommes are interested in what we think, because it does contribute to a better understanding, as well as the encouragment to continued communication which all of us can all benefit from.

ObedientYYC -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 10:41:55 AM)
So it seem that many of the Dommes on this thread are truly romantics, and not gold-diggers. Who would have thought?? I have an urge to buy flowers for all of you [;)]

LadyHugs -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 10:52:32 AM)
Dear hereyesruponyou, Ladies and Gentlemen; The world can be a nicer place. It just takes one person to be nice to others and inspires being nice in return. It would be grand to have a compassionate and kind world. Yet, without the meanies--we would have a measure of what 'kind, good, compassionate, etc.,' is. Just some thoughts. ((Hugs to those who want/need them)) Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

addicted2it -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 11:13:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha The courting I mentioned has nothing to do with specific requests to buy specific items. It's about being generous in spirit and heart, and that includes buying or making gifts, as part of the courting process. It also goes both ways (nowadays) and I consider it an absolutely joy to be able to gift someone I am courting. That's probably another reason I think it's so stupid that many subs have decided they will wrinkle their nose at the prospect of any kind of gifting when pursuing a non-professional, potentially intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. I think one of the most exciting and rewarding stages in a relationship is picking out and giving thoughtful and appropriate gifts. Akasha I see no problem with gifting someone. In fact, I rather enjoy doing that myself. However, it is one thing to give a gift from the heart and to someone who you have affection for, but quite another to give in to a demand. My history in this scene began at an early age with pro-dommes, one of whom asked me to buy her a certain brand of perfume as a prerequisite to meeting her. I was only 20 at the time, so what did I know about women's perfume? I bought it and presented it to her on our first meeting, and viewed it as proper protocol. There were also other professionals who I ultimately became friends with, and it was not uncommon for me to select something special from a store and send it to them as a sign of appreciation. The only time that I was actually asked for something was when the father of a Femdom friend died and she needed airfare to the east coast to attend the funeral. That too was a gift, and I was happy that I could help. But none of these instances were prompted by demands, and the gifts were offered as a sign of friendship. I guess I really do not understand why anyone would agree to send money or goods to someone they've never met.

LadyHugs -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 11:46:05 AM)
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen; I do not address any specific person, area of discussion but wish to share some thoughts on the topic as a whole. The Scene/Lifestyle as seen many changes in my mind's eyes across a span of 34 years. However, several things do remain a constant. That is respect, communication, tolerance, compassion, giving as much as knowing how to recieve something given; acceptance and a peaceful oasis within a lifestyle/community and or The Scene. Unfortunately, these things must be learned as much as it is to be 'expected and or assumed.' Nothing is free, even in learning to be an adult--we all pay a price for being who and what we are. Laws of attraction are not always fair. Often who we become attracted to is not a good match. In this lifestyle/community and or The Scene; we learn to dig a bit deeper, expand our understanding of what we fear and or do not understand. We learn to go past the physical realms which holds us in a bondage of vanilla constraints and submissive to what is given to us by those in authority, news, government and the like. We loose a bit of our freedom to think and to be true to our nature. In a smaller world we live in, those freedoms are much more but, again we pay a price. The structures of old are still foundations for most of us. We need some structure as to be constant, solid and relied upon. Otherwise, we become like jellyfish and just ride the current and not raise a sail and swim against the currents. In a good many cases people speak with their emotions and passions. Some tend to think before expressing them as to tame it perhaps or to weight the reply as to be inclusive as possible. I tend to believe that as big as the community seems to be--it really is rather small. The frustrations are all too many for each of us. We all have our problems --it is the maturity and thinking about others that is important. We need to prepare our fellow members of the community when in a text realm. We also need to understand that people will read into things when they have a bone to pick with an issue, a person and or a role. In wishing to be accepted it is hazardous. In wishing for a relationship--not only is it hazardous but, at times --tragic. Too often in looking for our 'someone' we only see the role and not the total person. It is because we judge on the first impression, it is a reminder to one and all that we are the ones who package ourselves for public consumption. Those who are true to their nature will not only be packaged but also contain our true nature--thus no false advertisements. We all come with flaws and some have packages damaged yet, the contents are undamaged. Only opening this package--listening to others and what they say--will we really know the contents of a person--as well as the contents of their character. People can choose how to present their case before others. Those who listen to the case presented then can make their own judgment. The shopping rule of thumb whenever buying something --Buyer beware. For all of us--it is heart, mind and spirit beware. We are blessed when we find what we are drawn to and purchase with our love, commitment and relationships. It just takes a lot of 'trys' in the fitting room to know exactly when we have a good deal and a true bargain. Patience is a virtue as well as an art all of its own. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

LadyIce -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 12:38:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: chiaThePet quote: This thread has only served to once again create a division between Dommes and submissives. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image] - pixel Ah.........What? Respectfully, chia* (the pet) What don't you understand and I'll try to explain it. In a nutshell, it created an "us" vs. "them" mentality, thus the divisiveness I was speaking of; the latter having nothing to do with a power exchange. Clear enough? [&:] - pixel The people that have seen it as an "us vs. them" mentality chose to look at it that way. Many others did not and this has turned into a great discussion and is still going. Sorry you could not see it that way. When I read a post that takes issues with ways femdoms behave, I don't immediately take offense. I consider the issue presented, look at my own behavior and measure it against the credibility of the OP and decide from there whether or not I want to chime in on it. No need to get offended if I don't think it applies to me. Akasha So many interesting posts here, I agree with Akasha quite a bit. I read many things on the forums, I don't get offended if it does not apply to me. Even if it does apply to me, I rarely get offended. I did not see this thread as an "us vs. them" thread. I saw it as a well articulated viewpoint, and I did find it interesting.

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 3:17:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck quote: The OP mentioned Dommes "expecting" gifts from a sub. I am 100% for giving thoughtful gifts to someone I care about, but to my mind if you demand a gift its not a gift, its a tribute. A gift is given freely for the purpose of making someone happy, and without the burden of expectation attached to it (on either side). I've had women on this site tell me that in order to meet them, I have to go to such-and-such a store and buy them such-and-such a brand of designer shoes for them. Thats not my idea of romance. I want to see that look of joy in my partner's eyes when I give them something they are not expecting, even if its just a flower. (If a Domme demanded a flower from her sub I wouldn't go so far as saying that is a "tribute"... but I also don't think it has much joy factor to it.) Ahhh, I see. This is where I differ then. While it isn't something I demand it is something I expect someone to do occassionally. Does that make sense? Perhaps I should say that it's the boy that does the small thoughtful things that is going to get my attention and appreciation much more than the boy that doesn't bother with doing the small thoughtful things. So while it is an expectation of sorts, it isn't something I'm going to demand verbally from someone. I look at it as no different than what you would do for anyone you would date or go to dinner at their home. It's simply common courtesy to bring flowers or a bottle of wine. Just as occassionally when dating someone you would give them a small thoughtful gift. Damn I wish I had known about this whole "demanding a pair of designer shoe" thing much sooner. Who neglected to send me that memo? I don't remember seeing it listed in the Big Book of Domly Domliness Rules. Perhaps it was in "Domination for Idiots". I hate it when I miss these kinds of things. [:)] The courting I mentioned has nothing to do with specific requests to buy specific items. It's about being generous in spirit and heart, and that includes buying or making gifts, as part of the courting process. It also goes both ways (nowadays) and I consider it an absolutely joy to be able to gift someone I am courting. That's probably another reason I think it's so stupid that many subs have decided they will wrinkle their nose at the prospect of any kind of gifting when pursuing a non-professional, potentially intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. I think one of the most exciting and rewarding stages in a relationship is picking out and giving thoughtful and appropriate gifts. Akasha Aakasha I should have noted as well that I meant it in a non- professional potential relationship dating situation. I agree that it works both ways. I've sent flowers, given gifts of nice gloves, a money clip, favorite books, tickets to a concert or sports event, etc. I always take wine if a sub is cooking me dinner. There have also been sily little things as well. So I've run the gamut between expensive to inexpensive. I enjoy being out and seeing something that reminds me of them and the opening of it makes them smile just as much as when the opposite occurs. Perhaps at times I enjoy it even more.With my previous boy I loved the way his eyes shone when he would get a little sweet unexpected gift.

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