RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks)

RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (Full Version)

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LadyClaudiaVan -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 2:39:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: addicted2it Akasha, as always, you are so very observant and right on point. And while I choose not to comment on every excellent point that you made, I agree that the trend away from the groveling submissive to the more aloof one seems to be the rule rather than the exception these days. I cannot imagine why any serious dominant would appreciate those all-too-obvious patronizing games that many submissives play to get attention, such as the "groveling worm" approach that you mentioned. Not only is it insincere and manipulative, but it can become very boring and irritating over time. I see this method being used more in chat rooms than anywhere else, but it can and does exist here on the CM Forums as well. One could chalk it up to the impetuousness of youth and to one's inexperience in scene protocol, which is probably true to some extent, but when older subs use it I can only wonder if and when their maturity will ever kick in. I have no doubt been guilty of this same behavior in the past when I did not know how to properly approach a domme; but after many years of observation and learning, I can easily recognize this behavior when others display it. And to those submissives who are reading this, I strongly-believe that it is most important for you to be yourself when attempting to contact a dominant. If you are truly submissive, then it will most-certainly reveal itself in your approach and mannerisms. And if you are sincere and honest, you will probably gain more points with that method of approach than with any other. Thank you for this, addicted2it. [;)]

LadyClaudiaVan -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 2:41:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maledave7 I feel that I need to be respectful toward all Dommes and Mistresses. How I treat others, would show how I would treat my future Domme. It is submissives like you who attract us. We like men who like women and are respectful of all people, particulary women. There is something about a man with a submissive heart that shines brightly. You and a few here shine.

ObedientYYC -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 4:15:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck quote: ObedientYYC Well its a similar thing with "tributes"... because it sets up a situation where there is a conflict of interest and the sub doesn't know if the Domme likes him for who he is, or for what he buys her. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand, but apparently it is. And isn't a spontaneous gift from the heart worth so much more?? There is a distinct difference between "tribute" and a thoughtful gift that shows you've listened to the things she's said, taken them to heart and want to show her how much you appreciate her for who she is...not what she can do for you. I don't require a "tribute". I don't think that's what the OP is referring to either. I did not see tribute being mentioned anywhere in the OP. I suppose my point would be this...Would you go to a friend's house for dinner and not bring a bottle of wine or some flowers in appreciation for being invited to enjoy their company? Do you take flowers to someone you're meeting for a vanilla date? Of course you do. Why is giving a Dominant Woman a small and thoughtful gift occassionally so different? Because she's Dominant? She's still a Woman regardless of the capitalization that comes before her name. While I understand your point of not knowing if it's you or the gifts she's interested in; the context of the gift you're giving may be what's relevant. My examples of inexpensive but thoughtful gifts do make a difference. It shows that he is thoughtful, attentive, concerned about my comfort and happiness. How something like that is seen as "tribute" is confusing to me. What you said yourself in the last line is exactly my point. It does mean a great deal more. The OP mentioned Dommes "expecting" gifts from a sub. I am 100% for giving thoughtful gifts to someone I care about, but to my mind if you demand a gift its not a gift, its a tribute. A gift is given freely for the purpose of making someone happy, and without the burden of expectation attached to it (on either side). I've had women on this site tell me that in order to meet them, I have to go to such-and-such a store and buy them such-and-such a brand of designer shoes for them. Thats not my idea of romance. I want to see that look of joy in my partner's eyes when I give them something they are not expecting, even if its just a flower. (If a Domme demanded a flower from her sub I wouldn't go so far as saying that is a "tribute"... but I also don't think it has much joy factor to it.)

jonathan -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 4:48:17 PM)
Always interested when You post, they read more like Sunday Times OpEd pieces than boards threads. Few & far between, but good always. Anyway, i just wanted to take the opportunity to mention this year's Cup finals. i assume You are still a Ducks fan. Caught everything except the 1st period of the 1st game and rooted for them the whole time & thought of You. Although i have to say, that hockey fetish of Yours is just a little scary. Hope You were at that final game & enjoyed the moment, Ma'am.

LadyPact -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 6:14:28 PM)
Just a personal note. Sometimes, I really hate My work schedule. I miss all of the good stuff. One mention in particular. I have to thank sea for his mention that positive energy was instilled in the thread. I find it to be a compliment any time that My name is associated with Lady Hugs. I appreciated that comment greatly. As, again, I was leaving early this morning when entering My last post, I did skip over the mention of tribute. I have posted this before, but it may be worth mentioning again. The word "tribute" has gotten something of a bad rap. Somewhere along the way, it's definition has changed somewhat. The truth is, "tribute" has not always meant what it seems to mean today. Please accept the following definition, and pay particular attention to #2a: Main Entry: trib·ute Function: noun Pronunciation: 'tri-(")byüt, -by&t Etymology: Middle English tribut, from Latin tributum, from neuter of tributus, past participle of tribuere to allot, bestow, grant, pay, from tribus tribe 1 a : a payment by one ruler or nation to another in acknowledgment of submission or as the price of protection ; also : the tax levied for such a payment b (1) : an excessive tax, rental, or tariff imposed by a government, sovereign, lord, or landlord (2) : an exorbitant charge levied by a person or group having the power of coercion c : the liability to pay tribute 2 a : something given or contributed voluntarily as due or deserved ; especially : a gift or service showing respect, gratitude, or affection <floral tribute> b : something (as material evidence or a formal attestation) that indicates the worth, virtue, or effectiveness of the one in question <the product is a tribute to their ingenuity> The second description is actually what has been more prevelant in a D/s relationship. As was mentioned, the very same as bringing flowers to a vanilla date, or when having dinner in someone's home. How this ever led to the definition that most associate it with today, I understand, but it isn't how many of Us see it. On to the comment regarding what is posted on the boards. Personally, I think this has turned into an absolutely wonderful discussion. I don't particularly see it as an 'us vers them' type of content. We are here, learning from each other, hopefully listening to each other. What is the negative in that? I've very much enjoyed hearing the observations of others. After all, isn't that what these boards are for? One other comment that I would like to make is the point about validity that I touched on in My prior post. Let's face it. None of us who haven't met in person really know very little about the other. Just like was mentioned, I could be just someone off of the street, with a few good outfits in My closet, (oh, and a few toys..... don't forget the toys!) who really hasn't a lick of experience, knowledge, or any other factor that one might use to 'prove' who they are. This is one of the drawbacks, rather than the positives, of the internet experience that I mentioned earlier. My question is this...... Who is to say? Who makes the judgement of who is authentic and who is not? This is left up to each of us to decide. A lot of these things wouldn't even be called into question if there wasn't the barrier of the screen. and we were all just sitting together at a munch or a play party. Without that opportunity, we are left only to our own devices. There are many outright 'fakes' within these forums. It's one of the things we encounter on a daily basis. (Just ask any Domme who has a full mailbox!) Often, it is hard to weed through these to find the real diamonds in the rough. At the same time, there are a few submissives who frequent these forums that stand out because they will participate. They have the composure to give an intelligent response to questions, rather than get dragged into the quagmire that so often happens. The fact that this thread has gone on for several pages is a complete testiment to this. My thanks to everyone that has participated, from both sides of the kneel.

hereyesruponyou -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 6:23:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ObedientYYC The OP mentioned Dommes "expecting" gifts from a sub. I am 100% for giving thoughtful gifts to someone I care about, but to my mind if you demand a gift its not a gift, its a tribute. A gift is given freely for the purpose of making someone happy, and without the burden of expectation attached to it (on either side). I've had women on this site tell me that in order to meet them, I have to go to such-and-such a store and buy them such-and-such a brand of designer shoes for them. Thats not my idea of romance. I want to see that look of joy in my partner's eyes when I give them something they are not expecting, even if its just a flower. (If a Domme demanded a flower from her sub I wouldn't go so far as saying that is a "tribute"... but I also don't think it has much joy factor to it.) Stating that you as a woman (Domme or not) expect gifts from a suitor is a preference. It means someone who never shows you that type of attention will not last with you. It does not make it an order, it's just stating the truth. I personally have chased away more subs from real time meetings after i refused expensive gifts and charged them with finding something meaningful for $5 or less. Seems that was too hard! (nevermind a simple question or two would have given them tons of ideas that would have made me smile).

LadyPact -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 6:51:55 PM)
A very good point. There have been times when I have asked that lilacs be put in a vase for My arrival. This tribute, when in season, is absolutely free. However, some just don't get the point.

MistressDolly -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 7:24:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact A very good point. There have been times when I have asked that lilacs be put in a vase for My arrival. This tribute, when in season, is absolutely free. However, some just don't get the point. :) MMMmm a vase full of lilacs..mmm delicious

ObedientYYC -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 7:27:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou quote: ORIGINAL: ObedientYYC The OP mentioned Dommes "expecting" gifts from a sub. I am 100% for giving thoughtful gifts to someone I care about, but to my mind if you demand a gift its not a gift, its a tribute. A gift is given freely for the purpose of making someone happy, and without the burden of expectation attached to it (on either side). I've had women on this site tell me that in order to meet them, I have to go to such-and-such a store and buy them such-and-such a brand of designer shoes for them. Thats not my idea of romance. I want to see that look of joy in my partner's eyes when I give them something they are not expecting, even if its just a flower. (If a Domme demanded a flower from her sub I wouldn't go so far as saying that is a "tribute"... but I also don't think it has much joy factor to it.) Stating that you as a woman (Domme or not) expect gifts from a suitor is a preference. It means someone who never shows you that type of attention will not last with you. It does not make it an order, it's just stating the truth. I personally have chased away more subs from real time meetings after i refused expensive gifts and charged them with finding something meaningful for $5 or less. Seems that was too hard! (nevermind a simple question or two would have given them tons of ideas that would have made me smile). If its about the gestures and not the material items, that really is a different spin and I can see how that could certainly be a preference. I still like the element of surprise though ;)

chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 8:22:29 PM)
Well i don't know about the rest of you, but getting it all worked out in this little love fest sure has eased my mind about things. All together now........ What can take a sunrise, Sprinkle it with dew? Cover it in chocolate and a miracle or two… The candyplan, the candyplan can, The candyplan can 'cause it mixes it with love and makes the world taste good… What can take a rainbow, Wrap it in a sigh? Soak it in the sun and make the stra'bry lemon pie The candyplan, The candyplan can… The candyplan can 'cause it mixes it with love and makes the world taste good… The Candyplan makes everything it bakes Satisfying and delicious. Talk about your childhood wishes. You can even eat the switches What can take tomorrow, Dip it in a dream? Separate the sorrow and collect up all the cream, The candyplan, The Candyplan can, the candyplan can… The candyplan can 'cause it mixes it with love and makes the world taste good… And the world tastes good 'cause the candyplan thinks it should Respectfully, chia* (the pet)

MistressDolly -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 8:52:36 PM)
:)

MistressDolly -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 9:28:11 PM)
That :) was meant for you, chia

undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 9:34:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 i try and get past whats been posted before and post on each topic by its merit. This enables me to argue on opinions and not on feelings. Upon reflection, I see that I am perpetuating the cycle when my response assumes that another poster's response is based on past interactions--then my response becomes based on past interactions. I don't know how well that is completely unavoidable but it is certainly a point to keep in mind to avoid falling into that trap. Thanks for your post. Cheers, Sea

undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 10:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsRose A thought just came to me, and I'd like to know (merely out of curiousity) what it would be like if Aakasha and Sea were to meet in person. If you are trying to set us up, she is happily married ;-) Thank you for your grounded post. As I stated in an earlier post that despite disagreements I appreciate Akasha's attempt to initiate intelligent discussion and to give advice to subs. In general, I find that I stand up to disagree when I sense generalization against subs I see not to be valid. At times when I have had multiple disagreements with a person, I have looked for opportunities for gestures to convey that there is no ill will. Perhaps I have not done that enough, or whatever gestures I did extend in the past were not enough. And perhaps I have let the disagreements overshadow any similar gestures she might have extended as I formed whatever assumptions I formed. I don't see Akasha as a bad person and don't think the respective online grounds on which we stand are complete opposites. Each is indeed passionate about BDSM and we will likely find ourselves with different views again, which is fine. Cheers, Sea

chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 10:21:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDolly That :) was meant for you, chia Dearest MistressDolly, Why Thank You Mamm, i purrrrrr when i please :-) Respectfully, chia* (the pet)

undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 11:03:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyIce This is the Ask A Mistress board, sea. I don't think the Mistresses here, need to get advice from submissives on what topics they wish to discuss. If you do not like the OP's topic, no need to read it or keep commenting on it. The OP had a right to start the topic and I have an issue with people that attempt to control or manipulate topics, because they are uncomfortable with them. If you do not like this topic, could it be because it hits to close to home? politesub, I agree with the other ladies you are sweet. If I have suggested that this topic should not have been created, I have misrepresented myself. I have a very lax position about what people can discuss in this forum. It took about 34 posts for any constructive discussion to begin on this topic. The constructive discussion in this thread did not occur until the initial energy was diffused. I think the reason is that the energy the topic contained is that of a rant against subs, which creates an us-versus-them air. While rants have an unwanted consequence--the us-versus-them air hinders communication--they serve a purpose. I do not object to rants and I do not object to the topic. I object to the generalizations in the original post because I do not disagree with them. And I feel some of these generalization are directed at me. It is fair for me to object and disagree. I briefly state my reasons for disagreement in a prior posts. If you would like elaboration or wish to further discuss my rationale, I will gladly respond. If you disagree with a reason I give for why I consider the generalizations to be untrue, I welcome hearing your rationale. Also, from the energy in your post I sense you have taken offense at what I have written in this thread. I am sorry for offending you. Would you mind telling me what text specifically offended you? Cheers, Sea

undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 11:09:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess **ooo LadyIce I agree with you...all I can say now is yet another can of worms has been opened and I'm getting My bug spray ready! LOL! Good luck lends you Her flame-retardant suit ~Kara** I think I have a fair track record of being able to disagree without flaming. Therefore, to quote our president, I think you have misunderestimated me. I am wondering if the post above took a shot at me. If it did, I am sorry you felt the need to do so. Cheers, Sea

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 12:56:29 AM)
quote: The OP mentioned Dommes "expecting" gifts from a sub. I am 100% for giving thoughtful gifts to someone I care about, but to my mind if you demand a gift its not a gift, its a tribute. A gift is given freely for the purpose of making someone happy, and without the burden of expectation attached to it (on either side). I've had women on this site tell me that in order to meet them, I have to go to such-and-such a store and buy them such-and-such a brand of designer shoes for them. Thats not my idea of romance. I want to see that look of joy in my partner's eyes when I give them something they are not expecting, even if its just a flower. (If a Domme demanded a flower from her sub I wouldn't go so far as saying that is a "tribute"... but I also don't think it has much joy factor to it.) Ahhh, I see. This is where I differ then. While it isn't something I demand it is something I expect someone to do occassionally. Does that make sense? Perhaps I should say that it's the boy that does the small thoughtful things that is going to get my attention and appreciation much more than the boy that doesn't bother with doing the small thoughtful things. So while it is an expectation of sorts, it isn't something I'm going to demand verbally from someone. I look at it as no different than what you would do for anyone you would date or go to dinner at their home. It's simply common courtesy to bring flowers or a bottle of wine. Just as occassionally when dating someone you would give them a small thoughtful gift. Damn I wish I had known about this whole "demanding a pair of designer shoe" thing much sooner. Who neglected to send me that memo? I don't remember seeing it listed in the Big Book of Domly Domliness Rules. Perhaps it was in "Domination for Idiots". I hate it when I miss these kinds of things. [:)]

undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 3:23:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact 1 a : a payment by one ruler or nation to another in acknowledgment of submission or as the price of protection ; also : the tax levied for such a payment b (1) : an excessive tax, rental, or tariff imposed by a government, sovereign, lord, or landlord (2) : an exorbitant charge levied by a person or group having the power of coercion c : the liability to pay tribute 2 a : something given or contributed voluntarily as due or deserved ; especially : a gift or service showing respect, gratitude, or affection <floral tribute> b : something (as material evidence or a formal attestation) that indicates the worth, virtue, or effectiveness of the one in question <the product is a tribute to their ingenuity> Sure, gifts, courtesies, and thoughtfulness are common in social relationships. I am very thoughtful. Once I spent a night in a hotel room with two women and there were only two beds. Since I could not possibly choose one over the other to sleep with me I offered to sleep with both of them together. Wasn't that thoughtful? ;-) Just kidding. I am happy about my ability to make a woman whom I am courting feel special. I achieve this through a combination of thoughtfulness and attention to detail and presentation, which requires creativity, effort, money, and time. The feedback I receive is consistent with my sense about how I fare. And I approach gifts and the like as I would for vanilla courtship. I practice an approach of self-driven thoughtfulness. I think the examples given in this thread about the types of gifts expected are very reasonable. It is not the gift but the act of making the gifts compulsory with which I do not connect if the relationship is a personal one and not a professional one. I think it would be odd in a social relationship like friendship or vanilla romance to explicitly ask for gifts as a condition for the relationship. If a vanilla friend was putting an ad on a vanilla personals site, I would find it odd if she explicitly asked for gifts. My philosophy towards a D/s romantic relationship is not very different. Incidentally, if the end result is to be made to feel special and courted, I think stating this end result would fare better. The motivation behind wanting thoughtfulness and being cherished is benign and, at least for me, consistent with my philosophy about a D/s relationship. The motivation behind gifts, tribute or generosity has different possibilities and these words are more loaded since they are also used by persons whose focus is on the material items. When gifts are demanded, they feel not like definition 2a but more like a charge levied by a group or a person who has the power of coercion; if you want to meet me, you must gift. It is this form of gifts or tribute with which I am uncomfortable. Let's imagine any relationship you wish to consider: a friendship or a romance. Let's imagine that the person with whom you want the relationship says that for the relationship to happen and remain, you must regularly give gifts. If you imagine how such a situation would make you feel, you will get a sense for how some of us feel. I find the explicit demand for gifts odd, and I find it to conflict with my sense of self worth. I do not respond to profiles that have this requirement. I do not write to them to criticize them. I do not write to them towards the relationship they describe. quote: Submissives that proudly state they will slam the door on any femdom that expects gifts. Look, guys, we get it - you aren't going to be scammed or send cash to strangers (we don't want you to do that either). But if you think it's cool and sexy to laugh at a lady that expects to be courted or for you to wrench your wallet out of your pocket to send flowers or a gift when you are courting, you are going to remain single a long time <snip> This one, sadly, I think is going to result in many submissives never getting to first base with a woman, because he looks like a cheapskate or a bitter guy who fell for a bad scam once and now is blaming all women. . I do not see how a position to opt out of profiles that have gifts or tribute as a prerequisite is the same as not giving any gifts or being a cheapskate. Therefore, I see this paragraph above to level an unfair generalization against a behavior I practice. If I am wrong to feel this way, I welcome hearing the rationale. Cheers, Sea

MistressDolly -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/18/2007 7:11:48 AM)
AAkasha, I see your point of view - - thank you for sharing same with us...

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