RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 8:48:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling
.......Id rather regret butting in and being wrong then regret not butting in and some thing terrible happeneing.


...couldn't agree more.



domiguy -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 9:02:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

There is a big difference between acceptance and apathy...I think many people confuse the two.

I see angelic's correlation here. I don't think she was talking about two consenting people sharing a kink that squicks her out personally....as a matter of fact I know she wasn't. I wasn't either. There are things that occur in WIITWD that are just plain wrong on every level....and if you want to say that you have never seen such occur...or that we should never involve ourselves in those kind of situations....you are not tolerant, you are not an "accepting" person....you are apathetic.


I have to admit that I do not exactly see the correlation.....One is clear cut... someone who is breaking the law...The other is always going to be a mater of interpretation as to one's on moral system and possibly personal limitations...So again, I will ask the question when is it "wrong" and at what point do you inject yourself into someone elses biz?  Since angelic has blocked me,  even though I'm fairly confident I saw her peeking, it's up to you, erin, to answer if you choose to...I gather this would have to take place in a dungeon or private home where someone is hosting a party?  I thought many of these places had rules and their own little mod11's running around to make sure that things do not get out of hand.

It would be cool if CM could list the names of those blocking you...Every time you put up a post...I'm fairly confident that there are less than a dozen people who still choose to read my posts and the most of them really  aren't interested in the least as to what I have to say they are just simply to lazy to figure out how to block someone....That, erin, is apathy.

One last thought, aside that I am now blocking Quivver, is the subject of the guy taking photos of the future rocket scientist....Since only cjenny was there it is impossible to get a "vibe" for what one might feel about this particular individual.....As far as I know, few people wear a t-shirt that says "pedophile" with an arrow-------> pointing up at their head....We live in a world where we are leery about everything and everybody....However, I could see myself sitting at Wendy's ...On the phone with a friend saying something like, "Jesus fucking Christ, you won't believe what is going on here, some trash are refusing to put clothes on their kid and the little shit is running around all over the place completely  naked....It's hard enough to choke down this shit without having to look at this little fuckers asshole."....Now comes the tricky part...Would I take a pic with my phone to send it to a friend?   The whole thing is rather surreal and although actually sad is still somewhat comical.....

I am blocking all of you shit heads.



Aswad -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 9:10:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I wish someone that is for interjecting themselves into relationships in this lifestyle would please come forth and state examples of when one should interfere. Perhaps some of us that are strongly resistant to it may change our minds if a case comes forward that we can identify with


Exactly.

This is, as far as I read him, what Domiguy and myself have both been asking since the start.

For some reason, that has been construed as sufficiently negative participation to warrant a block so the thread can "move forward" (run that by me again?) without addressing its own topic, which seemed rather clear: to find our when "enough is enough" with regard to What It Is That We Do.

quote:

It just seems silly and odd to make assumptions about other people based upon  a few posts.


Silly, odd and "all too human". (Apologies to FWN)

quote:

One of my submissives friends had someone who insisted that she must be abused even though I have never seen her say anything but that she was satisfied and happy with her relationship on CM.


~nod~

Seen that all too often, as well.

People project their own standards of happiness onto others, and refuse to accept individual variation. Unfortunately, this just deprives said "others" of their happiness, and said "people" paradoxically derive satisfaction from succeeding at "setting things right", despite the nonconsensual pain and/or harm they inflict.

quote:

So who are the policemen on CM? What qualifies them as having an expert opinion about the consensual relationships of others...


Well, some, like mod11, are inherently qualified by virtue of a Big Stick™. [:D]

(That was a joke; I know people often miss mine, so I thought I'd point it out.)



mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 9:19:31 AM)

Thanks julia, I will try. But I must say that it's difficult to give specifics as all situations have different circumstances. The best I can ever do is to find my own line...what feels right for me. It's not about judging another's kink...it's about drawing a line when you feel that someone is going to end up irrepairably harmed.

An example that I think you might be able to relate to. Say there is a person that you know who has had some really bad crap happen in their life, let's say childhood abuse. This person, instead of getting the help they need, decides to grind that axe on unknowing people. They find this lifestyle and think that it would be an easy place to find unwitting and vulnerable victims. So they hop in and say that they are, well let's say for this instance they say they are a slave. Then they go about luring in men (who they hate in general) with promises of their submission and lay on the flirting and the talk about kinks real thick. They talk a good game and after awhile the guy, in hopes of what is to come, gives them their personal information...maybe even meets them. Now, this "slave" takes this personal information and shares it with others in order to discredit the guy. She might use it to inform his family, his job. She might go to the lifestyle group that he is associated with and make claims that he assaulted or abused her. Now, as an outsider, it's certainly not something that is going to affect you...but you KNOW this is what she is doing and you KNOW that men are going to be harmed, maybe lose their families, their jobs, their position in their communities. So do you turn a blind eye or do you do what you can?

Another example....say you know a submissive who meets a Dominant...and she tells you that this Dominant seems to have an unusual interest in her young UM. You do a bit of checking and you find out that he has a sordid history concerning UMs. Do you inform the submissive or do you say it's not going to affect you and therefore it's not your business?

There are other things that are actually pretty common in this lifestyle that just the mere mention of would get this thread shut down if you get my drift....things if I had first hand knowledge of *I* would consider a valid reason to intervene.



leatherette -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 9:32:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I have to admit that I do not exactly see the correlation.....One is clear cut... someone who is breaking the law...The other is always going to be a mater of interpretation as to one's on moral system and possibly personal limitations...So again, I will ask the question when is it "wrong" and at what point do you inject yourself into someone elses biz?     The whole thing is rather surreal and although actually sad is still somewhat comical.....



Didn't read the whole thread, just most and I am feeling a bit apathetic myself.

I agree with domiguy.

I don't see where the confusion is. OK, I do... I just agree with that   lost rapper above. 

If you see someone who is stoned drunk off their ass - get in a car and tries to drive. Report to police. It is their job. DD is against their rules. They and the citizens of YourTown would appreciate your civic mindedness. Get the boys in blue up offa those donut shop stools and motivate them into action. better than coffee?  Brush off hands. Duty done. No worries. Not on your head. Let da po'lice make the choice..

The other is none of your business as it is a values call and you didn't have enough information available to you to make a clear decision. Right?

On the other hand: if those men grabbed a girl by the throat, dragged her off of her feet, she screams for help, he pulls a knife -

Mixed. Content vs. context. Time and place.

If above happened in a dungeon - [;)] perhaps a good time is had by all
If the above happened on a street corner ---- ?  

Value judgement ? YES.
Surreal? Check!

( i am supposed to be a nice girl and keep out of flames way)

OP - you did fine.




Aileen68 -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 9:40:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Thanks julia, I will try. But I must say that it's difficult to give specifics as all situations have different circumstances. The best I can ever do is to find my own line...what feels right for me. It's not about judging another's kink...it's about drawing a line when you feel that someone is going to end up irrepairably harmed.

An example that I think you might be able to relate to. Say there is a person that you know who has had some really bad crap happen in their life, let's say childhood abuse. This person, instead of getting the help they need, decides to grind that axe on unknowing people. They find this lifestyle and think that it would be an easy place to find unwitting and vulnerable victims. So they hop in and say that they are, well let's say for this instance they say they are a slave. Then they go about luring in men (who they hate in general) with promises of their submission and lay on the flirting and the talk about kinks real thick. They talk a good game and after awhile the guy, in hopes of what is to come, gives them their personal information...maybe even meets them. Now, this "slave" takes this personal information and shares it with others in order to discredit the guy. She might use it to inform his family, his job. She might go to the lifestyle group that he is associated with and make claims that he assaulted or abused her. Now, as an outsider, it's certainly not something that is going to affect you...but you KNOW this is what she is doing and you KNOW that men are going to be harmed, maybe lose their families, their jobs, their position in their communities. So do you turn a blind eye or do you do what you can?

Another example....say you know a submissive who meets a Dominant...and she tells you that this Dominant seems to have an unusual interest in her young UM. You do a bit of checking and you find out that he has a sordid history concerning UMs. Do you inform the submissive or do you say it's not going to affect you and therefore it's not your business?

There are other things that are actually pretty common in this lifestyle that just the mere mention of would get this thread shut down if you get my drift....things if I had first hand knowledge of *I* would consider a valid reason to intervene.


Mistoferin...I almost always find your posts to be very level headed because I do think that you walk the walk in this lifestyle.  The last two examples you gave are easy for me...they are illegal activities.  Plain and simple and should be reported to authorities.  The first one is the one I hesitate with.  Personally, I think the person who would do that is a scum.  Does that give me any right to out them or is it more of a case of buyer beware?  It's a tough one for me.  In my limited experience I've run across men who become extremely turned on by the thought of being outed, blackmailed, etc.  So who am I to say that it's wrong for them and it's wrong for the blackmailer just because the motive for each might not jive.  It all becomes such a fine line that once again falls back onto personal morals, personal limits and finally individual responsibility. 



juliaoceania -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 10:05:52 AM)

quote:

Say there is a person that you know who has had some really bad crap happen in their life, let's say childhood abuse. This person, instead of getting the help they need, decides to grind that axe on unknowing people. They find this lifestyle and think that it would be an easy place to find unwitting and vulnerable victims. So they hop in and say that they are, well let's say for this instance they say they are a slave. Then they go about luring in men (who they hate in general) with promises of their submission and lay on the flirting and the talk about kinks real thick. They talk a good game and after awhile the guy, in hopes of what is to come, gives them their personal information...maybe even meets them. Now, this "slave" takes this personal information and shares it with others in order to discredit the guy. She might use it to inform his family, his job. She might go to the lifestyle group that he is associated with and make claims that he assaulted or abused her. Now, as an outsider, it's certainly not something that is going to affect you...but you KNOW this is what she is doing and you KNOW that men are going to be harmed, maybe lose their families, their jobs, their position in their communities. So do you turn a blind eye or do you do what you can?


This is not an example of a consensual power exchange relationship in which all parties agreed to a certain set of rules. I doubt highly a dominant would consent to any of these things from a slave.

quote:

Another example....say you know a submissive who meets a Dominant...and she tells you that this Dominant seems to have an unusual interest in her young UM. You do a bit of checking and you find out that he has a sordid history concerning UMs. Do you inform the submissive or do you say it's not going to affect you and therefore it's not your business?




Anything concerning the abuse of a UM is everyone's domain, and still not an example of a consensual relationship...UMs cannot consent.

quote:

There are other things that are actually pretty common in this lifestyle that just the mere mention of would get this thread shut down if you get my drift....things if I had first hand knowledge of *I* would consider a valid reason to intervene.



If I know of someone having a real life impact on real life people to things they have not consented to (such as outting them, or slandering them) I will inform those people.

I was under the opinion that the OP had far different things in mind than those you touched on here... she said consensual relationships. Perhaps I am misjudging her, but I have read a few posts from angelic in which she handed out unwanted and unasked for assessments of other people's consensual relationships and those folks were happy and not asking for her approval or assessments.

Perhaps angelic can clarify for us what she meant though, because I wouldn't want to paint her point incorrectly



juliaoceania -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 10:11:27 AM)

I will add this in a seperate post because I do not want it to be missed in an edit

I find it unacceptable when dominants push submissives past agreed upon limits

I find it unacceptable when dominants change the rules on submissives and become poly

I find plenty of things unacceptable in WIITWD.. but I really think Erin's sigline says it... if we are going to play on the train tracks we forfeit the right to bitch when we get hit by the train... and as long as certain submissives stay with asshole doms they are consenting to it. I think they have the right to consent to being treated badly. I do not have to befriend such people, but I do stand up for their rights to decide their own lives.



mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 10:14:25 AM)

I'd like to point out that I have no problems whatsoever with what people want to do consensually. What *I* said was that there is sometimes shit that happens that is just plain wrong on all levels that people don't involve themselves for fear of being slapped down...or maybe that they just don't really care as long as it doesn't involve them. I am referring to situations where the consent is not there, uninformed or where the person or creature involved is not capable of giving it.

I am on my way out the door for a few days but I will check back when I can.



juliaoceania -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 10:31:52 AM)

quote:

I am on my way out the door for a few days but I will check back when I can.


I hope whatever takes you away is a fun thing...



Aswad -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 2:34:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Thanks julia, I will try. But I must say that it's difficult to give specifics as all situations have different circumstances. The best I can ever do is to find my own line...what feels right for me. It's not about judging another's kink...it's about drawing a line when you feel that someone is going to end up irrepairably harmed.


The examples you listed here suddenly made everything a lot clearer.

Thank you very much, mistoferin. ~bows~

Up until this point, it had seemed to me that what was being discussed was where the line was drawn as to what a capable adult can give informed consent to, and when it would be acceptable to interfere in their choices.

After this explanation, however, it is clear that you were talking about something else entirely, namely the things that occur outside of the framework of consent but remain connected to the "scene" or the "lifestyle" without being WIITWD.

The way I see it is:

The latter comes down to the same issues as for vanillas and society in general: if there is something going on that you feel compelled to act on, then do so- act in good faith. If someone is beating someone up, or kidnapping someone, or robbing their house, or just slandering their good name, then just turn the case over to the police or whatever, and let karma sort it out afterwards.

This is vaguely related to public play: at some point, reactions become not only inevitable, but justifiable.

The former, however, which you apparently didn't comment on (would be nice to know if you and the lady with the blocks were talking about the same thing here), is just the regular YKINMK vs YKINOK debate.

That's a different thing, where I find it hard to justify the YKINOK position.

I got these two confused here, thinking it was all about YKINOK thing, while at least some of it, possibly all of it, wasn't. Hence, my replies were written in that presumed context and that frame of mind, which turns out to have been a mistake. Mea culpa.

[sm=flowers.gif]



Level -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 3:48:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66

The thing at Wendys was way out of line of the Mother...the thought she didnt apparently care a dude was taking pics.

I have to ask why did you not report the man taking pics,that I would think that would be more of a crime than the code laws of nakedness in a place to eat.

Followed the dude out got a plate number...the proof was on the phone he had.

That guy could be a child predator...that I could never live with.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad,but that guy would have creeped Me out enough to file a complaint and called the police on him rather than the mom.


He left before the police arrived & I hadn't seen him leave so I couldn't get that plate number. Yes I know he could have been a predator, that is half the reason I alerted the manager.
I am not about to take on a strange man in a confrontation, if I had been able to get his plate I would have.
I couldn't follow him because I didn't catch him leaving being a bit distracted by lunatic momma beating on my car window.
Maybe I should have done more but it was a bit frantic with everything going on & me being the only one speaking up.
All I could do was tell the police his description. Sigh yeah I should have kept a closer eye on him or something but obviously I didn't so in that respect I screwed up. So yes I guess I should have found a way to stop him tho it would have been nice if the manager had also tried.

I did the best I could. I reported him but didn't stop him because I didn't see him leave. It's kind of typical of me managing to screw up.


Bull caca. You did fine.



VeryMercurial -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 3:52:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling
.......Id rather regret butting in and being wrong then regret not butting in and some thing terrible happeneing.


...couldn't agree more.


I feel the same way.
It is amazing the people that will watch certain events, and not do anything.



stella40 -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 4:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

There is a big difference between acceptance and apathy...I think many people confuse the two.

I often hear "So long as it's not affecting me, why should I........"



So what you're saying here is there is only acceptance and apathy? So what about common sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Recently the local news conducted an experiment. They staged an incident of Domestic Violence to see what reactions they would get. They had a man and woman get into an altercation in front of the local Sam's club on a busy Saturday afternoon. It started out verbally and escalated to becoming physical. They did it for nearly 3 hours. While a couple of people passing by paused and looked like they might get involved.....NOT ONE DID! Not one single phone call to law enforcement either. It's a sad fucking world.


So this to you is apathetic? It may seem so. I cannot say whether I would get involved or not on the basis of what you are posting here. What precisely does 'escalating to becoming physical' mean? Does it become physical or not? I might intervene, but before I made that decision I would need to know I have a good idea of what is going on and a solid basis for my reasoning to intervene. However a motivation for intervening would be, to me, that it is happening in a public place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I see angelic's correlation here. I don't think she was talking about two consenting people sharing a kink that squicks her out personally....as a matter of fact I know she wasn't. I wasn't either. There are things that occur in WIITWD that are just plain wrong on every level....and if you want to say that you have never seen such occur...or that we should never involve ourselves in those kind of situations....you are not tolerant, you are not an "accepting" person....you are apathetic.


Okay, let me give you my situation. I live on the edge of a district in South West London called Battersea. I live in an apartment block. Battersea is a fairly affluent area, it lies along the southern bank of the River Thames. It has a park, it is diverse, professional people live here, it is a rather upmarket area. Walk out of my block, turn right, go to the end of my street, go down another street and under a railway bridge, and along another street, and you come to Stockwell.

Now Stockwell is different. Stockwell is housing estates, flats, different people, a different district of London. It doesn't have the property prices of Battersea, nor the laidback, tolerant atmosphere found in Battersea and other riverside districts in London. It doesn't have many ATM bank cashpoint machines, it isn't an area where you walk late at night, you even stay off the Underground late at night. Stockwell is dangerous, one of the most dangerous areas in London.

Frequently my stairwell reeks of marijuana. Sometimes it can be thick and pungent. Sometimes you can even smell it on my clothes. I don't do drugs, period. However I've got a dealer below me. I hear the phone calls, I hear the noises of these people aggravating their pit bull terrier late at night, I am woken up by people knocking on their door late at night and in the early hours of the morning. On a busy night these visitors can keep coming until dawn.

I live alone. I'm transgendered. I don't know anyone in the area. So what do I do? Do I call the police? Then what? Or do I go down to my neighbour and ask him nicely to stop having visitors late at night because it disturbs me? Let us not forget they know people. Quite a few people it seems. Or do I do nothing?

And then, if I do nothing, does that mean I am being apathetic? Does it mean I am being accepting? Tolerant?

I don't do drugs, I know that drugs are illegal, but I also accept that living in close proximity to an area such as Stockwell that there are those who take drugs and those who supply those drugs.

Doesn't this fall into WIITWD? And isn't it wrong? Okay, so I choose to do nothing. Call me apathetic if you wish. But in this situation I would rather be apathetic and safe than living in fear.



leatherette -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 5:36:36 PM)

JMHO
Angelic, you did what you could at the time with the information you had.
We all make calls of judgement, make decisions every day. No one can say where to draw the line in touchy unknown situations. People's privacy is paramount, yet contrasts at times with personal and public safety.
No one, not even the greatest philosopher's have ever been able to come to a conclusion. There is no abstract, black and white absolute and values are questioned everyday.  We just hope to do the best we can with a clear heart, concious and mind.   

Stella, you are doing the best you can as well. No need to endanger yourself. Especially in a situation where far more harm than any good could ever arrive from any action you could take.

I respect you both ( I know, a stranger without a profile - yet still a voice) and all other's for considering responsible action in this harsh world.

best to everyone, please  



ownedgirlie -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 6:31:10 PM)

~ fast reply ~

I understood the OP to be talking about the consensual things that occur in what we do, and her need to step in (as a busibody, I believe she said) to save people from themselves.

As a past recipient of such a savior, I can only say it was a good lesson to me to butt out of something that is making someone else very happy!  The familiar savior in my story not only decided I was being horribly abused, but then expressed eagerness to watch me fall.  With saviors like that....lol.

In any case, if I feel someone is in danger of abuse or damage, etc., I might talk to the person to see how it is they are really doing.  I might ask some questions about how he/she feels about a given situation.  But unless the person is being subjected to something he/she clearly and truly does not want, it is not my place to interfere, whether I agree or like what they're doing or not.

So far all the examples I have seen on this thread have been illegal, abusive, and non-consensual activities, but the general concepts being discussed overall seem to be about basic consenusal practices between two or more people.  It's a bit unclear.



angelic -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 6:45:50 PM)

~fast reply~ geezusss... sorry all, i have been gone all day at work and need to work more tonight.  i have not had a chance to read everything.  But one thing i did want to say... Katie... i have several people blocked... i normally do not make it a public announcement... however, Domiguy choose to make it public that he had deleted lighthearted's email as unread.  In my humble opinion, it was meant to humilitate her.  And honestly, why does it bother you who i have blocked or whether i make it a public announcement?  Hell no one seemed to be bothered by the fact that someone here made a public announcement of being deemed 'mentally incompetent' and  in what the law would view as in an incesstuate(sp?) relationship... that did not seem to bother anyone, but my blocking Domiguy has sure caused a stir.  ~go figure~



angelic -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 6:47:06 PM)

And now i have dinner to fix and more work to complete.



angelic -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 7:01:42 PM)

Well, julia, since you accused me of unwanted assessments, i assure you if i posted anything it was in an open forum where, guess what?? i have just the same rights as you do... to post as i see fit. 

Right now i am extraordinary angry at what has transpired here.  i will come back when i can post without anger.



juliaoceania -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/18/2007 7:19:43 PM)

I was not trying to offend you. I have read threads where you posted about submissives that belong to dominants that are still searching for other submissives, and things of this nature. I have also seen you respond to posts by daddysprop about her situation, which obviously upsets you, so it makes a person wonder... are these the situations that you would interfere in? You have never really responded to questions about what sort of people need saving. In the case of someone mentally handicapped that is being taken advantage of, well that is not a consensual situation. In the case of incest, this is against the law... neither of these situations fall under the umbrella of consensual BDSM... but you have thus far refused to answer which consensual relationships people need to be saved from.



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