RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end?

RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 2:34:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears are you saying we should just shrug our shoulders and ignore it cause it might infringe on the mantra of "wiitwd" - angelic has a very valid point - if it's wrong have the courage to speak up. Non-consensual relations are not part of WIITWD. And a person who is mentally incompetent and involved with a family member *can't* consent. In such a case, one has a duty to speak up, both for the person involved, and for the community at large. It doesn't have anything to do with the lifestyle, which operates on the idea of consent as a central hub of it all. Also note that the forum doesn't allow such topics, so one should use the "report" button to draw the mods attention to it. Mixing the issues isn't helping the debate; there is a big difference between reacting to non-consensual activities, and drawing an arbitrary line that divides consensual relations between adults into "acceptable" and "unacceptable", whether that line is "blood vs no blood", "permanent vs temporary" or "LGBT vs straight". One of those lines has already been outlawed in most of the West, thankfully.

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 4:41:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I hope whatever takes you away is a fun thing... Thanks julia, I'm helping out a sick friend. Lots of work but it is always fun to be in the company of good friends.

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 4:43:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad The examples you listed here suddenly made everything a lot clearer. Thank you very much, mistoferin. ~bows~ You're welcome and I'm glad that I could make it less confusing.

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 4:51:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella40 quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Recently the local news conducted an experiment. They staged an incident of Domestic Violence to see what reactions they would get. They had a man and woman get into an altercation in front of the local Sam's club on a busy Saturday afternoon. It started out verbally and escalated to becoming physical. They did it for nearly 3 hours. While a couple of people passing by paused and looked like they might get involved.....NOT ONE DID! Not one single phone call to law enforcement either. It's a sad fucking world. So this to you is apathetic? It may seem so. I cannot say whether I would get involved or not on the basis of what you are posting here. What precisely does 'escalating to becoming physical' mean? Does it become physical or not? I might intervene, but before I made that decision I would need to know I have a good idea of what is going on and a solid basis for my reasoning to intervene. However a motivation for intervening would be, to me, that it is happening in a public place. Yes it is. The situation that I described did escalate to violence. He ripped the cell phone from her hand, smashed it on the ground and was shoving her around. She was crying and screaming for help. The camera panned out to show dozens of people walking by...none of them did a thing. Yes, that is apathetic. quote: Okay, let me give you my situation. <snip> Doesn't this fall into WIITWD? And isn't it wrong? Okay, so I choose to do nothing. Call me apathetic if you wish. But in this situation I would rather be apathetic and safe than living in fear. No that does not fall under WIITWD at all. It is also not apathy. It is fear. You are a prisoner in your home and you are paralyzed by the fear of retaliation. Having lived in some pretty rough areas I do understand that quite well as I have seen many people who live in such places who are paralyzed by it.

velvetears -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 4:56:21 AM)
Aswad, well those ums did not consent nor were they even near the age of consent. You and i are on a completely different page where um's being exposd to the lifestle are concerned, i found allowing them to hear talk about masters and slaves, what their parents do in the bedroom, how they structured their relationship, being witness to the mother being flogged,caned, etc to be detrimental to those um's in a big way. i found it repugnent and child abuse. So in my estimation i did not mix the issue, as i differ from you in my pov about um's and consent.

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:10:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelic i have to give Erin a big thank you. Although she and i are not even acquitances, she understood where i was coming from and expressed so much clearer than i what i was trying to say. It took balls. She has my sincere and deep appreciation. No thanks needed. I don't think I have balls....at least I didn't last time I checked.[;)] I did see the post that you are referring to and actually, I suspected it was that post that spurred this thread the moment I read your OP. I have to say that I was a bit taken aback when I saw it and it really made some puzzle pieces fit for me. I also have to agree with the state's findings in that case based upon the information that has been presented here over time and filtered through my knowledge and experience working in the field of psychology. The state does not make the decision to declare someone mentally incompetent lightly. It is a difficult thing to have someone legally declared as such and there is criteria that must be met in order to do so. The situation in reality may be entirely different but I don't have the benefit of having all of the pertinent information so my judgment of it is based solely upon what has been written here. My judgment may take a complete turn if I had more complete information. If it is indeed exactly as it is stated, it is an illegal situation and is very troubling. If it is not as stated then it would mean that the courts were manipulated into coming to that conclusion, which is also illegal and troubling. I'd also say that I think that many others on here are disturbed on some level by those postings, I know I have certainly had a fair share of email sent to me expressing such. The poster can be very eloquent and I think that often people can confuse that with competence....but there are many geniuses in the world whose belfries are chock full of bats.

velvetears -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:10:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad *Even "regular" rape isn't that invasive. And usually not nearly as self-righteous.* (No offense intended, despite the bluntness. I respect your position, even though you have clearly stated you don't respect mine. I just don't understand why you subscribe to that position.) [sm=hair.gif] - i really hope i have misunderstood you here (above boldesa nd italicised) - can you please explain what you meant here? Exactly define informed consent? You don't think any sub or slave is ever cohersed, manipulated, brainwashed in anyway to do some of the things their "Master" request of them, then later become traumatized over what they were involved in? Just as long as he says he wants xyz and she says yes i agree to xyz all is kosher? i just don't think it's that simplistic.

RCdc -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:11:08 AM)
If it was a picnic and general get together - I would have brought my children, unless it had been specifically stated that it was adult orientated. The most bizarre and weirdest thing I see here is that if it was a picnic, I am assuming it is held in a public place (otherwise it would be a barbeque or meeting at home - not a 'picnic') and therefore why are people bringing impact toys to an outside event where any children might come across? Sorry - the irony is lost on me here. I don't have any problem with events being held outdoors by the way - or public displays of affection - or wearing collars and a leash in public. What I do have a problem with is an outright double standard. If this event was not held in a public park or area, then its not a 'picnic' but a private gathering - which completely changes the scenario. If it was held in a public place, then the children of a consenting BDSM couple who understand that have prior knowledge is the least of anyones 'worries'. Peace the.dark.

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:19:35 AM)
I would just like to say that I feel very strongly that UM's should not be included in lifestyle events. We sometimes have picnics here to include the whole family, but it is stated upfront that the gathering will be "vanilla" and that it is not the time or place for fetish wear, play or discussions of lifestyle matters. I would not participate in an event that included UMs and did not have clear boundaries established before hand.

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Intervening in a relationship between adults operating under informed consent constitutes *real* abuse, as one is depriving one or more other human beings of their option of choosing what their sexuality will be like, and what their romantic life will be like, and how to live their lives. Even "regular" rape isn't that invasive. And usually not nearly as self-righteous. I have to disagree here because rape sometimes does exactly all or some of those things.

velvetears -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:28:04 AM)
Picnic was a bad choice of words - it was a barbeque and held at a persons home. i don't think um's exposed to "adult theme talk" is the least of everyones worries. Um' should not be exposed to things they cannot possibly process and understand If they are their parent's are putting their needs for an open lifestyle above the emotional health of their growing um's.

Aileen68 -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:39:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears Picnic was a bad choice of words - it was a barbeque and held at a persons home. i don't think um's exposed to "adult theme talk" is the least of everyones worries. Um' should not be exposed to things they cannot possibly process and understand If they are their parent's are putting their needs for an open lifestyle above the emotional health of their growing um's. Then you walk up to the hosts and tell them you are uncomfortable being in a place where chilren are exposed to bdsm items and then you leave. You really have no right to do anything else beyond that.

RCdc -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:44:36 AM)
Then the scenario was completely different to the one first described. I know it is a simple error to make, but it does make all the difference - private function in someones home Vs. picnic. That comes down to the person whos home it is. It is their responsibility and the parents to work on how things go. You left - that was your choice. But there is no way people should interfere on a private level like that. Just because you (generic) may shelter your children (age irrelevant) from realities of different peoples, doesn't mean others do. Children have to contend with PDAs and discussions of all different types at school and just walking down the street. It really has nothing to do with wiitwd, just human decency or even personal ethics/morality really. I have been to average barbeques or weddings and taken my children, and people talk about all manner of inappropriate (to me) things. If it affects my children, I stand up and say - even leave. No one can say that my ethics are 'wrong' just because they don't agree with me - it just means it's wrong for them. Peace the.dark.

Wildfleurs -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 5:55:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears This isn't a "save the whales" message board. This isn't a "adopt a kid" message board. This isn't a "non profit... help your fellow man" message board. This is a bdsm lifestyle message board so i am surprised you are amused to find posts that actually gasp deals with these kinds of issues. I can't see how you read my post since I never said I was surprised, I said this thread was FUNNY, which it is. But your absolutely right, I mean posting something off topic in the off topic discussion area? How dare I! Next we both will be posting on the "give us money to save our baby from abortion" thread... and what the fuck does that have to do with BDSM?? C~ Edited to add: To add to my shame, I also posted constructive things that the OP could do to take their strong desire/need to help others... to actually help those who really really need help as opposed to diagnosing mental incompentence and abusive relationships online. I know, I know - how dare I!!

mistoferin -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 6:03:13 AM)
This thread IS about WIITWD. I would also point out that the OP didn't diagnose anything. It was the poster on the thread that this post was generated from that disclosed the mental incompetence ruling and she also openly admits that the situation that she is in is indeed abusive.

angelic -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 6:06:07 AM)
Well ok, you have guts then. ;) i would like to add something else. Assuming the poster was not lying about being mentally incompetent, it stands to reason that if she is deemed mentally incompetent and a ward, the government by virtue of SSI gives them monthy payments. Smacks of fraud and wrong on so many fronts.

Celeste43 -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 6:09:13 AM)
There is no possible relationship between things happening unwillingly to those unable to give informed consent; ie children and mentally incompetent adults and things that happen willingly by someone who does give informed consent. Your comparison is subtly that all submissives are childlike and must be protected from their own wishes. WTF? What you do have the right to do is offer safety advise and state that you are concerned because the person talking about doing needles, for instance, did not specifically state he got them sterile from a medical supplier nor did he mention getting alcohol wipes to use prior and afterwards. That's it for your rights in WIITWD. I don't do edge play, I have low pain tolerance and no masochistic traits nor is he a sadist. Play for us is bondage and sex in private. If I said he was contemplating stringing me up by the neck then you would be within your rights to chime in with a safety warning about the potential hazards (death) and how to mitigate them (do it as a mindfuck with the rope not attached to the ceiling but a thin thread instead which would snap instantly). But tracking me down and calling the police because I said we were going to do something you disapprove of in your zeal to save the world is totally out of line and you would be well deserved to be arrested and convicted of harassment, invasion of privacy etc. If you're talking about public play (dungeons) then you have no place to say anything to the people involved. Your only appropriate outlet is to ask the D.M. if he's watching that scene and why does he permit it when it appears so unsafe. The scene in question may be much safer than you presume in your ignorance since you aren't omniscient. One thing The Man used to do was lecture me. My response was to stand there silent while tears ran down my face. Now if someone saw this happening on a park bench their response would be that he was a verbally abusive bastard whereas the truth would be that we were engaging in sexually verbal foreplay in an inappropriate venue. Just because you interpret it as wrong doesn't mean it is. Once we have informed consent given, then the only reason you have to interfere is if you fear there are safety concerns being ignored. And once you have pointed out the safety concerns then you have no other reason to interfere in another person's private relationship if they make it clear they don't want your input. The important part here is informed consent which means the person giving consent is capable of making a decision about their own future and has been given all the relevant information needed to make that decision. Should I choose to do something risky once I learn about all the risks, you have the right to think less of me, but you have no right to 'save me from myself'.

Wildfleurs -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 6:09:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin This thread IS about WIITWD. I would also point out that the OP didn't diagnose anything. It was the poster on the thread that this post was generated from that disclosed the mental incompetence ruling and she also openly admits that the situation that she is in is indeed abusive. I this this thread encompasses BDSM, but its obviously not really about BDSM otherwise the mods wouldn't have moved it from General BDSM Discussion to Off-Topic Discussion. I'm still not entirely clear who the person is who is being abused and mentally incompetent, but going back to what I said earlier - if this thread is about one person this is really the height of passive agressiveness. If this thread is about the broad scale issue then it definitely is about diagnosing abuse online, since the OP did say she saw things here (CM/Online) daily that were horrific. C~

KatyLied -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 6:13:34 AM)
Does anyone have a link to the abusive, mentally incompetent thread? I missed that one.

stella40 -> RE: When is enough, enough…..or where does acceptance end? (6/19/2007 6:22:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Yes it is. The situation that I described did escalate to violence. He ripped the cell phone from her hand, smashed it on the ground and was shoving her around. She was crying and screaming for help. The camera panned out to show dozens of people walking by...none of them did a thing. Yes, that is apathetic. In that case I agree with you. In fact I'd even go further and say those people were inhuman. I would have intervened, but then again I see myself as a lady with balls.

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