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RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 5:39:01 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoticDan

As a dom, I have no problem giving orders or rewards. Having said that: To me, any kind of physical violence, even if it is desired by the recipient, is a punishment. So what I want to ask is: how does it make you feel good to be spanked/caned/whatever? I feel that if I understood this better I would be better able to put myself in the mind of my pet and better deal out these... treatments I understand some will say "just making master happy is all that matters and if that's what it takes, that's what it takes." but something about that doesn't ring true to me. It feels... alien. A wrongness, if you will. Probably because I'm not a sub. I dunno - maybe it's a catch-22: if I just "go with the flow" I'll do it too much, and if I keep overanalyzing it then I'll always do it too little.

Please, tell me your thoughts.

It feels good because it releases endorphines. However, this response is still entirely contextual for most people. If a random person flogged me, my reaction would be entirely different from Valyraen picking up the flogger. The same way if a random man grabs a woman's breasts, her reaction will be different than if her lover grabs her breasts.

Edited to add: In this house, corporal punishment is rarely used. It is all pleasure and play "punishments". My real punishments involve standing in a corner, writing essays, or an occasional face slap.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/17/2007 5:41:03 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 21

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 5:42:51 PM

BossyShoeBitch

Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline

You know what Dan. I think you are an awesome guy and you remind me of another awesome guy who happens to be on this thread as well.
If I am reading you correctly, you do ALOT of communicating. Communication, in my opinion, (and I think Michael will agree with me on this) is the key to all of this.
If you talk to your submissive about exactly what you both want to happen and not to happen and you are both really open and painfully honest, this will all work itself out in the best possible way for both of you.
Once you get past that urge to stop because she is saying "please stop" (but not safewording) once or twice, it will get easier and easier.

By the way, I am really glad you joined these boards because I think you have alot of very interesting insights and stories to contribute.

< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 6/17/2007 5:43:50 PM >

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 22

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 7:40:16 PM

HypnoticDan

Posts: 463
Joined: 5/23/2007
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BSB - Thanks! With a sig like yours, I can see why. With manners like those I'm sure you'll get everything you ever want in life ...short of my submission

. Is there some reason you don't mention this mysterious other person's name? I'm guessing you mean Michael.

Speaking of communication:
I am a very "out" dom. If gays can be out and proud, why not us? It's not as though there's a section in Leviticus that says "and the Lord said: Thou shalt not tie thy slave for pleasure, nor beat her prostrate form even if she should so desire." I'll freely talk about shibari (you should have seen me at the indoor rock climbing gym last week. Whoo!), SSC, etc. In fact I host a weekly "movie night" for about 10 of my friends and lately they've been joking that afterwards I should do a little "DS 101" course. The challenge there is that I woudn't consider myself nearly as experience as some doms and I don't have a sub to provide the "other side of the story", so I'm reduced to
- talking about RACK/SSC
- talking about safewords, EMT scissors, blood flow restriction, choking hazards
- talking about the logo
- "Write down your fetish and put it in the hat, we'll talk about them one at a time"
- talking about a common toys and their use (will have to beef up my collection, what a pity,) and inexpensive alternatives (read: hardware stores)
- demonstrating a few simple ties & rope handling techniques (aka the kind of stuff available on twistedmonk public videos).
- Simple hypnosis demonstration & safety warning.
- Some kind of little prize giveaway (haven't worked out what, though).
- encouraging people to do their own research and share what they learn with me! No sense in doing the same legwork twice.

I think getting as many volunteers to demonstrate as possible should make this a fun part of the night.

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)

Post #: 23

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 7:51:19 PM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

I am a masochist . Pain stimulates me sexually and excites me. I get off on the adrenaline rush from pain and love the overall feeling it gives me. There are forms of pain I do not enjoy. Pain used as discipline is not very effective for me. I need other forms of discipline for correction. Master enjoys giving the pain as much I enjoy receiving it.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 24

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 8:10:34 PM

akisha

Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoticDan

As a dom, I have no problem giving orders or rewards. Having said that: To me, any kind of physical violence, even if it is desired by the recipient, is a punishment. So what I want to ask is: how does it make you feel good to be spanked/caned/whatever? I feel that if I understood this better I would be better able to put myself in the mind of my pet and better deal out these... treatments I understand some will say "just making master happy is all that matters and if that's what it takes, that's what it takes." but something about that doesn't ring true to me. It feels... alien. A wrongness, if you will. Probably because I'm not a sub. I dunno - maybe it's a catch-22: if I just "go with the flow" I'll do it too much, and if I keep overanalyzing it then I'll always do it too little.

Please, tell me your thoughts.

Well spanking I just find plain erotic, right from soft good morning pet spankings to slight punishment ones *S* Flogging is awesome, totally relaxes me and makes me all warm and fuzzy, even when it hurts.

Caning... well first experience totally sucked. Was for punishment and to be honest I'm still extremely leary of them. Even after seeing someone played with them that loves them, I just cringed watching her geting hit. Yet the marble paddle and the chain didn't bother me lol go figure. I have learned (kinda) that canes to have to always be bad, but in my head they probably always will equal punishment to me.

Crops are one thing i've come to really like as well (so far) they leave such love marks and give suck intresting stings of pain *grins*

Unlike Denika *S*, I adore hot wax and I'm looking forward to some day trying out fire if I find the right person to do it with.

I can't comment on impact play because I've never participated in it but it does look interesting to a point.

Really it depends on how the sub is hardwired. Some of us really get off on the pain, and in my experience the knowledge of knowing we dissapointed is way worse then any physical pain you could dole out anyway.

As for "Making Master Happy" for me with my former Dom it was that I would push myself to accept and endure more pain then what soley gave me pleasure because it gave him pleasure to see my suffer. And there fore it was worth it.

_____________________________

I'm confused.... No wait!!! Maybe I'm not

It's not a blonde moment! It's momentary peroxide posioning. ;)

Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

532-095-649

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 25

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 8:40:29 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Ok, let's take this outside a relationship dynamic (because you're assuming that sub=masochist). Pain can be used as a conduit for an altered stated of consciousness. Lots of people call this sub-space. But, you don't have to be a sub or slave to use or enjoy masochistic activities. Pain has long been used for ceremonies and rights of passage, such as the Lakota Sun Dance (we call it a hook or energy pull). Some people are also turned on by it...again, this has nothing to do with relationship orientation.

If you want to understand it better, I can recommend from experience that you start looking into it for yourself. There is something about doing certain activities that you can only gain by experiencing them. You don't have to do everything (we're allowed limits, too! Spanking is one of mine.) Of course, none of this is a requirement for being a Dominant or Master...I'm suggesting it in order to understand the experience of pain better.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 26

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 9:26:11 PM

arayofsunshine55

Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline

It's hard to know what to say. I am not IMO a masochist. But I do love how hard his Cock gets when he hurts me. And that makes me wet. This is for us sex. Nothing about it is punishment. We don't do punishment. At all. I like taking his pain. I like the passion of the dance between us. I like the intensity of it all. I like how much pain makes me very present, in the moment, unable to drift off, count sheep, makes lists etc. Completely in my body. Completely in the moment with him. A meditation of sorts.

If he didn't get off on the pain I would not connect with it as well. That is how I am wired -- I literally get pleasure from his, including watching him fuck another. My favorite is to be able to stroke his Cock while he hurts me. Simply delicious.

Maybe it isn't your cup of tea. Not all subs are into pain. Many are not.

_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 27

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 9:39:21 PM

ErusUxor

Posts: 44
Joined: 4/22/2007
Status: offline

My Master uses (light) pain play . I am not a heavy masochist but a certain level of pain can be very stimulating to the senses. I have always just assumed that (for me) the sensate experience of pain either followed by, or coupled with, something pleasurable increases the over all intensity because it adds yet ANOTHER thing to feel. The simple science (from what I understand) is all about endorphines. I am an endorphine junkie (this is also why I am a distance runner). Some of us enjoy the extra physical edge that pain adds to our sensual/sexual experiences.

Pain can also re-enforce feelings of vulnerability..... and vulnerabilty is an incredibly hot thing for alot of bottoms/submissives...etc.....
The idea that Master can take me, make me, use me or hurt me if he chooses...well the anticipation of " if and when" leaves me always just a little breathless and following him like a hungry little puppy.

He never uses pain for "punishment"...at least not "real" punishment. He does not "punish" me. If he is dissapointed in me , that has always been worse that any beating ever could be. As others have said...Communication, as always, is the best bet .

Perhaps just asking your submissive/play partner the "whys and hows" will help clarify for you and may even help them to learn something new in the process of mutual discovery.

_____________________________

When they said "penny for your thoughts" ...I had to try and figure out how to make change.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 28

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 9:51:07 PM

valkyriesdaughte

Posts: 38
Joined: 6/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I can only tell you what I experience through pain. I'm a masochist. And whenever I'm put through certain stimuli the dopamine circuits in my brain become a superhighway. I sense pain, but the results are pleasure. Whether I'm "incorrectly wired" up there, I can't answer. And quite frankly, I don't care.

For instance. Ever since I was a young child I've used my fingernails to sqeeze into my gingiva (hope I spellt it right) because it just feels soooooo good. Of course it would end that I would bleed but the lasting, pulsating pain was heavenly.

My relationship doesn't involve d/s so pain isn't used as a punishment nor reward. But I can totally understand how with d/s type masochists, pain would be a difficult thing to use as a punishment tool.

Actually Vir, you're wired correctly. Pain receptors (nocioceptors) sense and respond to "noxious stimuli" (pain). When stimulated , nocioceptors trigger the release of endorphins, which in turn act on the dopamine receptors. The dopamine pathway mediates the Four F's- fright, flight, fight, and *sex*.( Interestingly enough, the dopamine pathay is the same system that is stimulated by narcotics and opiods.) When the endorphins kick into high gear and trigger the dopamine pathway, it sets off a cascade reaction of neurotransmitters. It's the kinky version of the runners high. As the sex is all wrapped up in the same circut, there is an added boost from the release of oxytocin- the love hormone.

Although I've never seen any research on it, it would be reasonable to assume as Doms are stimulated by power and control, that the same pathway is stimulated in them, and their good feelings are mediated by the same NT cascade.

Physiology lesson aside, different people respond differently to the same stimuli. I have no problem with a good spanking, but I don't care how cute you look in a bunker jacket or with a stethoscope, keep the fire and needles away.

(in reply to Viridana)

Post #: 29

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 10:40:30 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

For me personally, it has been a deeply bonding experience to accept someone's leather. I do not enjoy the pain by any stretch of the imagination. I loathe it in fact. I do all sorts of freaky things to get through it, I make gutteral sounds and grab onto my hair and wince and squirm through the entire thing, but after it is over with, I feel broken down, completely surrendered, totally compliant, very calm, and exactly in the place that I desire to be in. Afterwards, the welts and marks that last for days serve as a reminder of that bond; of my place, etc. I love to look at the marks in the mirror and stroke them and run my hands over them. I feel kinda sad when my skin is pure white again. I do not view this as 'punishment'. I have only experienced being punished physically one time, and it had a whole different feeling behind it than a maintainance whipping.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to valkyriesdaughte)

Post #: 30

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/17/2007 11:19:47 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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What is the purpose of pain? When you find it to be usefull in ways other than correction or as a demotivator then you'll have an answer you might be able to shift around your head to allow yourself to administer pain with less guilt.

Pain can be used to strip away barriers and live totally in the moment.
Pain can be used to induce a trance like state.
Pain can be used to induce catharsis
Pain can be used to close the book on a phase of life
Pain can be used to do so many other things than induce someone to avoid something.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 31

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 1:29:23 AM

HypnoticDan

Posts: 463
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

As a dom, I have no problem giving orders or rewards. Having said that: To me, any kind of physical violence, even if it is desired by the recipient, is a punishment.

I'm not saying that I would only use pain as a punishment. I'm saying that if someone tried to inflict pain on me the only thing it would ever do is piss me off. A lot. That's why it's hard for me to imagine it as a positive thing no matter what someone tells me. I guess I hope that someone will frame it in just such a way that I can say "Aaah, right, I can understand it when you put it like that."

ErusUxor - I can appreciate a part of what you're saying: for example, sitting down in the shade with a cold drink after a decent day's work only feels good because my sore body can finally relax. No pain, no gain. That's very very different from enjoying the moment of pain itself.

Anyone else want to take a (woosh) crack at it?

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 32

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 5:10:21 AM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

the first time Sir spanked me, afterwards he sat back with an ear-to-ear grin, because by the 10th swat i was begging him to let me cum. the first time he used a flogger on me (gently then a bit harder) the same thing. those are pleasure sensations to me, not punishment ones....although we differentiate "spankies" from "whuppins" for pleasure and punishment.

it takes me out of my body and into my mind for a bit. and once i *do* get back into my body, the normal pain i deal with.... has eased. Sir knows and understands this, and therefore does it as much as i can tolerate.

kitten, who is incredibly fortunate in her Sir and knows it.

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 33

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 5:32:59 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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OK maybe a bit less cryptic then.

The problem might be that you are putting yourself in their shoes without making the shift in perception.

If you craved the shift to another mental plain of existance or insert any of the things I mentioned before, and pain was one of the easiest routs to it, then you might not react with anger towards it(the pain).

The difference is not always in the reaction to pain though. Some bottoms get angry about it, but choose to subvert the anger until the "benifits" of the pain come along. Others accept the pain as a matter of service to their Top, their taking it might be extreamly difficult for them to do and may take a level of self discipline that many can only be in awe of.

For others the endorhine high might be the goal again early on they accept the pain as part of the price they pay for the high, much like runners who push through the pain to achieve the runner's high.

Sometimes it's important to understand the motivations completly other times only to an extent. For me I'll never get fully wht a masochist gets from it, I understand the idea and I have seen the proof that the theory tests true in practice, and for me that has been enough understanding. At least enough to continue practicing my Sadism without untoward guilt.

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 34

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 5:48:30 AM

sleazybutterfly

Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline

I suppose we could make it simple and just say that endorphins are causing the pleasure. I prefer to think there is more to it than that. I know that pain sexually stimulates me, turns me on, and makes me very wet. I think there is the control, being able to turn it all over on him, being free to just be myself, not having to restrain how much I want it, or how hard. There is the release of a million different emotions when the pain shoots through the body. I get a bit sad, happy, mad..etc, depending I think on what mood I was in to begin with, or what happened to me during the day. There are some nights that the romantic stuff doesn't do anything, I have to have extreme pain to get off at all. I have also noticed that the levels of pain I need are getting higher. I used to just enjoy face slapping, but now I need face back handing in order for it to work on me.

Pain is so many different things, it hurts, it gives pleasure, it allows release of stress, it reminds me that I am his property, giving me that sense of being owned that I love so much. It awakens the senses and allows full pleasure to come through the body...giving me some of the most intense orgasms I have ever had in my life. I wouldn't give this up for all of the vanilla sex in the world.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 35

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 7:33:01 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Dan,

Look at pain like this. You look at another guy and see just a guy, you see a woman and you see someone you might have sex with. What if women saw things the same way, you would never get laid! You look at a woman and see a potential sex partner and she is wired the opposite and instead see's men as potential sex partners.

Pain is the same way, men give it and women love it...just kidding but I think the point of how SOME people hate pain (me) and others love it (the good ones).

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 36

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 8:18:27 AM

littleone35

Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline

I HATE pain so it wroks as a good punishment. Master had 3 different kind of spanking. One is play that is hard enough to give me a pink ass and that i enjoy. The 2nd is displine that is harder a sting and i don't enjoy it (nor am i supposed to) The 3rd is punishment and that is painful Thank God i have been his good girl and only had that once in the 16 mons we have been together. Once was more than enough.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 37

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 8:36:20 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoticDan

...I'm saying that if someone tried to inflict pain on me the only thing it would ever do is piss me off. A lot. That's why it's hard for me to imagine it as a positive thing no matter what someone tells me. I guess I hope that someone will frame it in just such a way that I can say "Aaah, right, I can understand it when you put it like that."...

...Anyone else want to take a (woosh) crack at it?

this slave sees it this way:

You assume everyone has the same feelings and perceptions and is wired the same as you, therefore you assume no positive from what YOU would perceive as negative, "no matter what". it is a common occurance.

You are trying to walk in someone else's moccasins, and they are the opposite of your size.

In spite of our ALL being human:

We aren't ALL programmed the same way.
We aren't ALL physically wired for sensations the same way.
We don't ALL have the same reactions, experiences, associations, training, programming, tolerances, triggers or preferences with regards to pain that everyone else does.

why do you think you have to feel the same sensation, or identify with a mindset in opposition to yours, firsthand, in order to be able to understand, accept or appreciate it?

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 38

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 10:08:24 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I feel that if I understood this better I would be better able to put myself in the mind of my pet and better deal out these...

Dan,
This is a fools mission. Your time would be better spent getting to know yourself. Knowing others, knowing the process of impact play, knowing where the line is for a person between use and abuse is a moving target.

When I posted this, there were 446,507 registered users with profiles on CM. Considering the multiple personality profiles that represents at least 19 separate individuals. If all of them were submissive and you spent an day with each of them talking, scening, and playing while discussing the process, assuming your wealth of knowledge would give you insight on the 20th person would be wrong.

Acceptance of being wrong is a critical quality trait for a Dom. When a person has a problem with being wrong to the point they can't/don't say it on a matter of fact, you can be sure they lack the confidence and self assurance to dominate another individual. Same is true of those who pre-qualify the value of their opinion or experience by bullet pointing their resume or the latest article they've read on the subject.

When it comes to people each is different and any assumption about a person you bring into a relationship based upon past experience has a good a chance of being wrong as it does being right. A relationship by its very nature has impossible to overcome obstacles of perspective especially in heterosexual partnerships.

There is no way a female can know what it feels like to be kicked in the balls. There is no way a man can know what it's like to experience childbirth. Within the gender the experience and reaction to them is different. Most of our shared experiences are of the same nature. Some people laugh at "Hee Haw" others at "Seinfeld", others can do both. Trying to explain the humor of Seinfeld to someone who doesn't "get it" serves no purpose. A better use of time would be to find a common ground for the mutual humor entertainment.

Complimentary "common ground" is essential to a relationship. Being prepared and gaining knowledge of yourself in the process is a better path to your goal or "understanding".

quote:

I would be better able to put myself in the mind of my pet

This is not possible. No way can you know how the sensation is being processed. There is no process, inclusive of getting in touch with your submissive side, that will accomplish this goal. Putting the same clover clamps on your nipples as you do hers may look the same, I guarantee you it does not feel the same. The sensation is not processed the same. Using the same example, some submissives can't take a wooden clothes pin on their nipples. Some yawn with anything short of a battery jumper cable. With others it varies during the month. Coming at a new submissive with jumper cables because you had a deep understanding with your last sub and she/he loved them, isn't a good idea; no matter how deeply you believe you've similarly gotten into your new submissive's mind.

quote:

how does it make you feel good to be spanked/caned/whatever?

What do you want to do with this information? What does it do to you to spank an individual? Based upon your statement; "...any kind of physical violence, even if it is desired by the recipient, is a punishment"; maybe you should should keep it only in the realm of punishment. There are plenty of people who share your position. To be with them there is no need to understand, you only need to be the complimentary part of there desire and set up your dynamic around that concept.

Seeking "understanding" is akin to seeking "dogma". It is fine to use it as reference and frustrating as hell to use it as gospel or the one true way.

Be confident in what you know, and even more confident and up front about what you don't know. Then go about living and meeting people. You'll find out the more you know the less you "understand". You'll also find out that you'll never know everything or enough. That's actually, IMO, proper mindset. It won't leave you frustrated and paranoid and you'll have much more fun. Which, after all, should be the real "understanding" of why anyone does or wants to do, anything.

"It's FUN, it feels GOOD, I LIKE it!' When someone gives that response in answer to why they enjoy receiving CBT or a severe caning, why analyze it or ask them to explain it any further. If it compliments your desires as a Dom and your answer is the same regarding why you do it to your submissive or slave you are considering - you are well on your way to a great relationship.

Good luck!

(in reply to HypnoticDan)

Post #: 39

RE: Help me to understand your mind - 6/18/2007 12:07:46 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

I like to compare sensation play to hot sauce on food. I know people who will pour tabasco on scrambled eggs and others who find ketchup to be overpowering and eat food with no seasonings. Neither one is wrong or right, they just are what feels right to our tastebuds.

So someone who enjoys sensation play won't enjoy being stroked with silk or a feather, that would be too light to be interpreted as pleasurable. And people who enjoy sting may hate thud or vice versa. Just as some people prefer sweet foods and others salty.

(in reply to Viridana)

Post #: 40

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