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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:08:07 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes, and my worry is: in times of war, propaganda is almighty. I can't help but wonder who will benefit from this story, ultimately.


...it may be those specific orphans among others, but it wont be all the Iraqi orphans....that would cut into profits and call into question the morality of the Shock and Awe operation.

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:12:56 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		While I wouldn't like to make any assumptions about this piece of news, I'm very aware of the fact that the media is at the boot of the army.

It's obvious that this particular story has been released for a reason, and the reasons you state make a lot of sense: make the Iraqi look like barbaric bastards, and the US army kind and caring. 

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/19/2007 10:44:46 AM >

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:15:25 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		If we didn't want to kill all these kids, we shouldn't have bombed the power and water systems into the stone age.

Cholera -- It Sucks.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:17:20 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Keep pointing that finger, Fargle...

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:21:53 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Well, who *IS* responsible for all the deaths in the nation WE are responsible for occupying and controlling?

If we didn't WANT the obligation, we shouldn't have taken over the nation in the first place.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:45:19 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		There is a lot to be pissed off about, that's a given :-(

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 10:52:20 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Who?  You are.  Your tax dollars paid for it.  I was living in Chile at the time.

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 11:02:13 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline 		Shorter farglebargle:

OMGWTFBBQ!!!!  I'm losing control of the narrative! Get me a neocon/Republican/Bushie/chickenhawk/scandal to demonize, STAT!!!!


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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 11:03:12 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Who?  You are.  Your tax dollars paid for it.  I was living in Chile at the time.


I fear you were attempting to reply to fargle but missed :-)

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 3:56:20 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Do you know where the 'story' originates from? I know the source you quote is CBS, but who did the initial reporting?


The story mentions CBS News chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan, so I'm assuming she was the first reporter.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 4:01:41 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I am grateful beyond belief that I don't see a boogieman behind every corner.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 4:31:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You never answered the question of what you do each day that makes the world a better place.

What is your agenda anyway? I don't know you but when I read your posts like this, I get the visualization of a person sitting and worrying if the satelites are tracking you.

So what country in history is pristine? You offer simple solutions for complex problems. To change government takes time, and your ranting and rhetoric is starting to make you just another head on a propoganda dragon.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Look, it's an emotional issue, period. It's not a question of absolution. Relentless demonification of the government does a disservice.



Evil *IS* as Evil *DOES*.

quote:



There is no quick or easy solution.


Don't do evil.

quote:


The killing in Iraq isn't US forces hunting down children in the street


You're right. Children are being raped in their homes, after their parents are murdered BY US TROOPS. So they're not being hunted in the street. They don't get the chance to escape into the street.

Or did y'all hang that animal Steven Green yet as a lesson to the Troops?

Didn't think so.


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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 4:35:27 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Funny that when a story like this comes out the admin of the US is controlling the press, when they uncover a republican doing wrong doing they are the liberal controlled media. Personally I think most people are not objective, and little more than a cheerleader for a political party, ideal or agenda. Media is not news any longer, they make money for more people watching. Is why I don't watch the news and research anything I hear on it.

I notice few comments for the type of culture that could allow these children to exist like this. Did not the neighbors know what is going on? Why didn't the local community do something about it? Why were the American soldiers called in to do a job that Iraqis should have done themselves? I know that big red herring about the 100,000 deaths is distracting everyone.


Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

While I wouldn't like to make any assumptions about this piece of news, I'm very aware of the fact that the media is at the boot of the army.

It's obvious that this particular story has been released for a reason, and the reasons you state make a lot of sense: make the Iraqi look like barbaric bastards, and the US army kind and caring. 


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/19/2007 4:48:49 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You never answered the question of what you do each day that makes the world a better place.

What is your agenda anyway?


What I do every day to make the world better is different than my agenda.

Let's summarize my agenda as: Spanking our Political Bitches when they misbehave


quote:


I don't know you but when I read your posts like this, I get the visualization of a person sitting and worrying if the satelites are tracking you.


Y'all got an EZ-PASS in your car? Did you read the court papers in EFF v. AT&T?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/20/2007 6:29:49 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		How do you spank them? From what I have seen of your posts, you bring in political views and comments when they do not easily apply. This tends to detract some of the points of the original OP. I will admit that I often make sarcastic remarks about something too. Being non-politically aligned I tried to start a grassroots campaign to overthrow Congress. The message was supposed to be "The citizens are tired of the business as usual politics. You are our servant and this is our way to show that we truly have the power." I called it the Anti-I campaign, and all you had to do was not vote for the incumbant Congressman. By having a drastic over turn in Congress all bargains made by the previous congressman are gone and the new ones coming in will hopefully realize that they need to deal with real issues, instead of political theater, and they were indeed accountable.

Now back to the OP. I spoke with a returning serviceman that is an aquaintence of mine last weekend. he told me the horror stories that are being done by our soldiers have some truth to them but not more than you would see in about any area of military operations. He said the officers and sergents are being very hard to keep a tight control. He said that this is often difficult, because when you have your battle blood up, that part of you that is necessary to survive under fire, it takes a tight control until it subsides some. He said that his squad had actually talked about it among themselves, and others had as well. If one of them seems to still be "boiling" after the combat, then the others keep a close eye and will keep him out of trouble.

He also said that the stories of rescues, helping the Iraqi's, and how many of the residents treat them as great people is also true. He said it is difficult to live in that area and not blame even those that are helping, when the residents look at the military and US as a whole. He said as an individual, that when they get some downtime, their favorite thing is to get a pick up game of soccer together with the locals and just be people. Funny how when you remove the politics, people can often just be themselves.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You never answered the question of what you do each day that makes the world a better place.

What is your agenda anyway?


What I do every day to make the world better is different than my agenda.

Let's summarize my agenda as: Spanking our Political Bitches when they misbehave


quote:


I don't know you but when I read your posts like this, I get the visualization of a person sitting and worrying if the satelites are tracking you.


Y'all got an EZ-PASS in your car? Did you read the court papers in EFF v. AT&T?




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/20/2007 7:26:13 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

How do you spank them? From what I have seen of your posts, you bring in political views and comments when they do not easily apply.


Not being easy to apply isn't exactly the same thing as "Wrong", is it?

Just because the DOJ has been purged of anyone NOT a Loyal Bushie, doesn't mean that a US Attorney *shouldn't* bring the 18 USC 371 violations to a Grand Jury, does it?

quote:


This tends to detract some of the points of the original OP.


I hope so. Some see this story as just another piece of disinformation and propaganda, designed to distract the public eye from other, more pressing issues.

quote:


Now back to the OP. I spoke with a returning serviceman that is an aquaintence of mine last weekend. he told me the horror stories that are being done by our soldiers have some truth to them but not more than you would see in about any area of military operations. He said the officers and sergents are being very hard to keep a tight control.


That's not the case for Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi, was it, where SGT Paul E. Cortez JOINED THE CHILD RAPISTS AND MURDERERS.

quote:


He said that this is often difficult, because when you have your battle blood up, that part of you that is necessary to survive under fire, it takes a tight control until it subsides some. He said that his squad had actually talked about it among themselves, and others had as well. If one of them seems to still be "boiling" after the combat, then the others keep a close eye and will keep him out of trouble.


"Military Discipline" means you HANG THE CHILD-RAPISTS AS AN EXAMPLE TO THE TROOPS.

quote:


He also said that the stories of rescues, helping the Iraqi's, and how many of the residents treat them as great people is also true. He said it is difficult to live in that area and not blame even those that are helping, when the residents look at the military and US as a whole. He said as an individual, that when they get some downtime, their favorite thing is to get a pick up game of soccer together with the locals and just be people. Funny how when you remove the politics, people can often just be themselves.

Orion


That's a real feel-good story. It doesn't absolve us all, generally, and the military, specifically for its gross failure to enforce any sort of Discipline.

Of course, CAN YOU? Can you enforce Discipline when you have Rumsfeld ORDERING THE RAPE, TORTURE AND MURDER OF PRISONERS?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/20/2007 1:48:18 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Actually I am just relating the story as is, or as my memory serves. I am also showing that there is more than one side to anything. Sometimes a feel good story is just that, not some nefarious conspiracy. I see the good and the bad, actually I prefer to call it events. Many of those events I disapprove of, some I do approve of. Do you have the vote roster for each person in congress that initially voted yes for the war? Do you have any documents that show any of those asked for more intelligence? There is actually one Presidential candidate that had access to alot more intelligence than others when the vote was cast yes, will you vote for that canidate? You see there are things good and bad in all of this.

Those that made mistakes or initial crimes should be held accountable. The entire process should be revamped. Everyone says they were double crossed and lied to, well that has been going on with almost every administration since before Truman. Both sides of the politcal arena use it, it seems more of a game than hide and seek (plausable deniability) than truly going after facts.

If you want the federal government to be more accountable, take more power away from them and put it at the state and local levels. If you truly want to change things, offer something to construct, rather than to just destruct. You seem rabid sometimes and caught up in some of these politcal discussions, just like how a fan sometimes gets rabid when his team is losing, or in some cases winning.

Anyway, why ever you do it as long as you are enjoying it, then I guess you are a very happy and satisfied person.


Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/20/2007 2:47:38 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You cannot devolve authority back to The People or The States WITHOUT destroying the Federal Government, can you?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/20/2007 3:21:54 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		In reality it probably shows how ill prepared we were, with the concept of providing them a democracy, in dealing with a country like Iraq.....Every step of the way we see reminders of our hubris in thinking that they (Iraq) were at all ready to become a working democracy.....

And yes, the reporter had to be allowed to take these photos and to report this story....Remember, no one is allowed to take pictures of the coffins or the dead as they arrive home in this war on terror.

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RE: Horror story from Iraq - 6/20/2007 4:01:20 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		An update:

(CBS) It was a welcome Capt. Ben Morales could not resist. He walked into the room and a little boy reached out his arms to him, CBS News chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan reports.

Morales was back to check on the 24 boys he and his soldiers rescued just more than a week ago.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/20/eveningnews/main2959189.shtml


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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