RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (Full Version)

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Stephann -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/19/2007 9:36:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TEMPERANCE

Im curious to know how Masters view submissives that are fiesty and confident women.

I have often read that Dominants enjoy the challenge of a submissive that is not a naturally a submissive individual... it has often been descibed as exciting and well worth the challenge when the submission is finally gained.  However, in reality... it does not appear to be as such.  Im aware of several submissives that fit the lable of 'fiesty' and experience great difficulty in the search for a Master.

It would seem that some Masters feel threathened by the percieved dominance of the submissive and others just feel that the time and effort required maybe just a little too much.... i would be most interested in how others view this.

Thank you

t 


In short,

Yes.

Some men like the challenge.  Others don't.

Not every self-identified dominant is an alpha fe/male.  Not every submissive is a beta fe/male.  There are strong willed people who enjoy submission, there are passive individuals who enjoy domination.

My experience has been that stronger, alpha dominants do very well with strong, alpha submissives.  Beta dominants do well with beta submissives.  Alpha doms can work reasonably well with beta subs, if a great deal of care is taken.  Beta doms with alpha subs walks too closely to the line of disaster, I think.

It's never a bad thing to be yourself.  It's only a bad thing if you involve yourself with someone wholly incompatible with you.

Stephan



Kinkypupper -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/19/2007 10:33:03 PM)

No its not a bad thing at all :-)



robertolapiedra -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/19/2007 11:25:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: octavia

Pfft.

And I quote:
"the ones like you are having to deal with are the worst submissives until they become the best. "
[:D][:D][:D] 

.


Hello octavia. You are quoting from? RL.



octavia -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 7:34:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: TEMPERANCE




...

It's never a bad thing to be yourself.  It's only a bad thing if you involve yourself with someone wholly incompatible with you.

Stephan


 
I agree 100% with this.  Describes my disasterous marriage perfectly.  I wonder too about the alpha female sub thing.  I ve gotten the sense from people that a woman can't be alpha and submissive.  The problem is, when i hear that its like im a brunette with brown eyes hearing there is no such thing as a brunette with brown eyes.
 
octavia
 
PS.  my quote was something SimplyMichael said in another thread. [;)]



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 7:52:42 AM)

People just love boxes too much and they are so scared that they might not be good enough that they keep themselves as far away from anything that might SMELL like "not submissive" as possible.  So an "alpha type slave" is just too freaky of a concept for many to get.

Which means trying to explain how a switch is a slave really just becomes futile.



SirDominic -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 8:50:30 AM)

What you are talking about, really, is compatebility. Yes a lot of Dominants that say they love challenging submissives are blowing smoke. It is not how feisty or not the submissive is, it is really about how confident or not the Dominant is. A woman who is confident in herself, who she is, what she wants, must find a Dominant that is not only comfortable with her confidence, but is confident enough himself to not be threatened by it.

The more confident, stronger a submissive is, the harder it will be to find the one for them. But when you do find that someone who is strong, powerful, sure in themselves without a need to prove anything, now with me, that is when I think it really will click for you.

As for feisty, as others have mentioned, it really depends on what you precisely mean by that. There is feisty along with good behavior and feisty with bad behavior. Most Dominants do not take well to the latter, unless they really enjoy the whole "breaking a horse" thing. A feisty submissive who knows her place can be a treasure.

Namaste, Sir Dominic



Stephann -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 9:16:01 AM)

Yes, a submissive can be an alpha.

Domination and submission are traits.  Dominant and submissive are roles (nouns), but also qualities (adjectives.)  What's missing are adequate terms, for what is a developing concept, I think.  Alpha and beta are misleading, I think, but good enough for now.

An alpha submissive, to me, is a woman who possesses the capacity and can comfortably act in a dominant role.  A beta submissive either does not possess this capacity, or is not comfortable in the role of a dominant.  These are just general labels, of course; individuals will defy the rule.  A beta submissive is unlikely to switch roles, where an alpha may be tempted or flat out enjoy switching.

An alpha dominant suggests someone who is not only comfortable in the role of dominant, but can reasonably expect to be the dominant in almost every social situation.  They actively seek roles of dominance, leadership, and are unlikely to be comfortable in any lesser, subserviant role.  This doesn't mean they are incapable of such; only that they aren't likely to be comfortable.  A beta dominant is someone who is generally dominant, enjoys being dominant, but is comfortable and can find enjoyment in situations where they are required to be submissive (i.e. in the presence of alpha dominants, or in social situations where they have no choice.)

Just my take on it; I'm open to suggestions or criticism.

Stephan

other



TEMPERANCE -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 10:08:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

of course you missed a few other possibilities... like the person isn't submissive in the first place.


And how does one establish this?  It has been said to me that i am not submissive... which does make me think..... yes i am confident, and yes i am fiesty... but deep down inside of me i want to submit.... though when others have told me this it does make me question myself.... which isnt a bad thing... i believe that i can be submissive but its about finding the right Dominant....



TEMPERANCE -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 10:34:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

When you say "submissive that is not naturally submissive"? Would you really accept to "submit" to a dominant that is not "naturally" dominant? I find this very exceptional.



In relation to this i like what Stephen has said:
quote:


My experience has been that stronger, alpha dominants do very well with strong, alpha submissives.  Beta dominants do well with beta submissives.  Alpha doms can work reasonably well with beta subs, if a great deal of care is taken.  Beta doms with alpha subs walks too closely to the line of disaster, I think.


quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra

I know "some" women enjoy the "image" of the "threatened" dom by "submissive female dominance". I find this control issue in a relationship to be an annoyance, at most an irritant but a threat? Do you really think, some "doms" are that affraid of a little topping? I have not met one single dominant "threatened"  by this... RL.



Im afraid i have encountered "dominants" who appear to be threathened by this.  I have always assumed it to be something to do with what has led this indivual into "domination" in the first instance.  I am personally aware of "dominants" who believe that by entering into a D/s relationship it is a way of gaining some form of control in their life/relationships, when in reality they feel that they have very little. 

Once again i think it relates very nicely with what Stephen has wrote.



TEMPERANCE -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 10:41:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

As for feisty, as others have mentioned, it really depends on what you precisely mean by that. There is feisty along with good behavior and feisty with bad behavior. Most Dominants do not take well to the latter, unless they really enjoy the whole "breaking a horse" thing. A feisty submissive who knows her place can be a treasure.

Namaste, Sir Dominic


Well naturally i would say i'm fiesty with good behaviour .....




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 10:50:59 AM)

Yes, many doms are threatened by many things.

So what?  That's THEIR stuff to worry about.



robertolapiedra -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 1:44:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Yes, a submissive can be an alpha.

Domination and submission are traits.  Dominant and submissive are roles (nouns), but also qualities (adjectives.)  What's missing are adequate terms, for what is a developing concept, I think.  Alpha and beta are misleading, I think, but good enough for now.

An alpha submissive, to me, is a woman who possesses the capacity and can comfortably act in a dominant role.  A beta submissive either does not possess this capacity, or is not comfortable in the role of a dominant.  These are just general labels, of course; individuals will defy the rule.  A beta submissive is unlikely to switch roles, where an alpha may be tempted or flat out enjoy switching.

An alpha dominant suggests someone who is not only comfortable in the role of dominant, but can reasonably expect to be the dominant in almost every social situation.  They actively seek roles of dominance, leadership, and are unlikely to be comfortable in any lesser, subserviant role.  This doesn't mean they are incapable of such; only that they aren't likely to be comfortable.  A beta dominant is someone who is generally dominant, enjoys being dominant, but is comfortable and can find enjoyment in situations where they are required to be submissive (i.e. in the presence of alpha dominants, or in social situations where they have no choice.)

Just my take on it; I'm open to suggestions or criticism.

Stephan

other


Hello Stephan. Just a suggestion. I would like you to define the "alpha" person, without the dominant or the submissive trait-adjective-noun thingie. What I know comes from ethology and biology (pecking order and such).

Up to now, from what I understand: dominant-noun is same as alpha; dominant-adjective is a punctual response; dominant-trait is a trait. RL.
(Rem tene, verba sequentur.)




Stephann -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 3:06:05 PM)

Robert,

Alpha refers to a personality where one exhibits characteristics of assuming authority, responsibility, and control of most situations.  Examples can be a quarterback, aggressive CEO, or a dynamic trial lawyer.  Alphas make successful telemarketers. 

Dominant as a noun doesn't mean alpha.  'My dominant' means 'The person I submit to.'  A dominant is someone who enjoys being submitted to within the BDSM lifestyle.  It doesn't necessarily mean that the person is inherently dominant, or even very good at dominating.  It just represents their desire to be in a dominant position.

Submissive as a noun means the same; a person with a very dominant personality who craves to be controlled would still be an 'alpha' personality, with a desire to serve.  It doesn't mean they are going to be good submissives (especially at first) or submissive to every dominant; put an alpha submissive with a beta dominant, and you'll likely have both very frustrated.

Hope that sheds some light for you.

Stephan



octavia -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 4:56:20 PM)

This is a very fascinating idea for me.  It validates how I feel about myself inside.  I realize that lots of people think they are "alpha" or "dominant".   I don't say that I think I am in a boastful way at all.  Actually it gets in my way all the time.  Deep down I very much crave to submit but find it very hard to do so.  First of all, I have to find a person able to dominate me.  Then, I have to learn to submit.  The person able to may not be the person willing to teach me too.. so now I have a double wammy to deal with, have to find someone willing and able to deal with a not so good submissive who wants to be a great submissive.  [;)] 
It's like a cruel joke of the universe.  Giving someone with an alpha personality the desire to be submissive. 
ratbastards.




robertolapiedra -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 6:35:22 PM)

Hello again. Thanks Stephan, I understand your take on this. I guess we don't have the same meaning of "alpha".

In social animals (chimps, bonobos, dogs, horses etc.) it means "rank". If you did an experiment, and took out alphas say from five groups and put them together, you would still end up with one alpha dominating the four others. That's nature.

The way you use word "alpha" you would end up with five alpha "types" with deference decided by intellectual means. I find this exceptional. RL.





Stephann -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 6:49:38 PM)

octavia,

Why not wait for one man capable of both feats?  I know I can enjoy dating a woman who I dont' feel is exactly right for me.  Over time, either we will grow closer (and compromise) or grow further (not compromise.)  This compromise is part of all relationships; yet I feel too many people expect to make too many compromises, out of fear that someone better will not come along.  In short, people aren't picky enough.  Ironically, those with big hearts seem to be even less picky, out of fear of hurting their partner.

Be picky.  Everyone will thank you for it.

Robert,

Putting five alpha men in a room will likely still end up with one in control, sooner or later.  I don't think it would happen intellectually, per se, but socially (non-physically.)  Part of our socialization has been to learn to establish a pecking order, without the need for physically asserting it.  This isn't to say physical cues play no part; they certainly do.

This also isn't to say that the alphas in question -desire- to be in a position of dominance.  I've known many powerful, alpha types in my day who shelled out a great deal of money simply to enjoy the feeling of what they (say they) truly desired; to be a slave.  Our natural inclinations and skills, don't always match up with our natural desires.

Stephan



akbarbarian -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/20/2007 6:52:42 PM)

I've brought up Taming of the Shrew recently, in my thread that's still ongoing.  At the end, Kate winds up being what most would call a doormat to her husband yet she's feisty to all who oppose him or his views.  It's an interesting twist.  She hardly lacks confidence or fire when she physically drags several women who are being unsubmissive to their husbands, to their knees, then delivers a scathing speech to them about how they should be obeying meekly. 

I also notice that many, many times I've seen it said "I wouldn't want a doormat or broken sub or slave, they would be uninteresting" yet I've never, ever seen it said "Yes I've done it, and it was unfulfilling it turned out.  It seems to me rather like someone who has an opinion about a product yet has never bought or used it.  Talking out their ass it seems to me.



TEMPERANCE -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/21/2007 10:21:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: octavia

This is a very fascinating idea for me.  It validates how I feel about myself inside.  I realize that lots of people think they are "alpha" or "dominant".   I don't say that I think I am in a boastful way at all.  Actually it gets in my way all the time.  Deep down I very much crave to submit but find it very hard to do so.  First of all, I have to find a person able to dominate me.  Then, I have to learn to submit.  The person able to may not be the person willing to teach me too.. so now I have a double wammy to deal with, have to find someone willing and able to deal with a not so good submissive who wants to be a great submissive.  [;)] 
It's like a cruel joke of the universe.  Giving someone with an alpha personality the desire to be submissive. 
ratbastards.




You sound like you are in the very same position as myself..... and then we have to sit here and read that the majority of Dominant's like a "challenge" and some one that is considered "fiesty".. while were thinking  well where they bloody hell are they then..lol

Patience is needed apparently.....

t x 



SirDominic -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/21/2007 10:26:33 AM)

quote:

I also notice that many, many times I've seen it said "I wouldn't want a doormat or broken sub or slave, they would be uninteresting" yet I've never, ever seen it said "Yes I've done it, and it was unfulfilling it turned out. It seems to me rather like someone who has an opinion about a product yet has never bought or used it. Talking out their ass it seems to me.


Wellllll, I don't think I would go that far. There are many ways to learn experiences without having to have the experience yourself. Take abusive husbands (or wives) in a vanilla relationship. That is essentially the same as a broken slave. I can see the harm to body and mind that takes place oh so clearly. No need to go there myself.

Namaste, Sir Dominic



TEMPERANCE -> RE: Is being a fiesty submissive a bad thing? (6/21/2007 10:29:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

I also notice that many, many times I've seen it said "I wouldn't want a doormat or broken sub or slave, they would be uninteresting" yet I've never, ever seen it said "Yes I've done it, and it was unfulfilling it turned out.  It seems to me rather like someone who has an opinion about a product yet has never bought or used it.  Talking out their ass it seems to me.


Thats a good point also... and the shoe also fits on the other foot... the majority of challenging submissives that i know exprience great difficulty with trying to find a dominant despite the fact the majority of dominants claim to want someone with 'spirit'... when in reality they do go for the more meeker types as they are not so much of a challenge.

Regards

t x  



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