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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:21:32 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		Give me a fucking break, this is entirely two different things...IF they were tried and found not guilty why those mother fuckers would be out building bombs the very same day. I think we as American's value life and freedom more then any other country in history,SO farglebargle take you fucking sob story some place else...bounty

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(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:24:04 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Give me a fucking break, this is entirely two different things...IF they were tried and found not guilty why those mother fuckers would be out building bombs the very same day. I think we as American's value life and freedom more then any other country in history,SO farglebargle take you fucking sob story some place else...bounty


How can there possibly be TWO DIFFERENT types of "Equal Protection"???

If they're DIFFERENT they're NOT EQUAL.

They *could* *in theory* be Equivalent, but we're not discussing that here.

quote:


I think we as American's value life and freedom more then any other country in history,


You're the one supporting torture? And would have us believe that is "valuing life and freedom"?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/22/2007 9:25:26 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:27:23 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Wouldn't it be funny if, after 6 months of being housed in an Afgani prison the lefties start yelling; "Open up GTMO again! Afgani prisons are too cruel!"

popeye,
You'll never hear about it. It's one thing for a report to venture 90 miles off the coast of Florida during the winter to report on the "pain and suffering" endured by these prisoners in a tropical Cuban setting. I doubt any will be venturing to Afghanistan where "Midnight Express" is shown as part of a prison guards training curriculum. 

Worrying about GTMO takes on the same connotation as the argument about defining the label for 'slave'. It's has become a label representing a visual argument, used by an agenda driven press core. Better to use the out sourcing facilities for these prisoners in places such as Afghanistan, N. Korea, China, Iran, Darfur, or even Castro's hospitality houses for his political prisoners. Then let the press report on those conditions.

The "we are better" or "...if we do that we are no better"; sanctimonious outcry falls on deaf ears with me. We shouldn't and need not be any better because our adversaries see it as a weakness and exploit it. Why are there never any reports of "innocent" people killed when our adversaries use a child as a 'smart bomb'? If one of our aircraft delivered "smart bombs" takes out a school of where 100 of their 'smart bombs' are being trained - no "innocent" civilians were killed, only a weapons' depot.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:30:17 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

used by an agenda driven press core.


No, it's about Government Officials ordering the Unlawful Detention and Torture of Prisoners in the name OF the People of the united States.

This is, of course, a Federal Crime.

Good thing for the alleged criminals, there are only Politically and Religiously reliable Party Whores sitting as US Attorneys, eh?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:33:26 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Merc, well said.
I like that word; "sanctimonious."

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:35:24 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

We shouldn't and need not be any better


You should really read the Declaration of Independence and Federal Constitution some day.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:49:37 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		YES life and freedom for our people our country, and others trying to kill mine and your ass hell yes torture, thats my thing any ways..SO farglebarg a little scene here for you if I may....some terrorist has hidden a bomb strapped to one of your love ones and the only way to extract info to save them was torture,then you ..yeah buddy you would be the first in line...bounty

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:51:26 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		I have many time and continue to do so..Theses days and times call for measures our founding fathers couldn't have imagine..

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:52:51 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

We shouldn't and need not be any better


You should really read the Declaration of Independence and Federal Constitution some day.


And you should really try to understand it.

There now, reduced to your level - wasn't that exchange productive, educational, and thought provoking? Your turn...

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:59:40 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

YES life and freedom for our people our country,


Does

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL PEOPLE are endowed by THEIR CREATOR with certain UNALIENABLE RIGHTS"

sound familiar to you? Because it proves false your allegation that unalienable rights are just for "our people our country", doesn't it?

quote:


and others trying to kill mine and your ass


Without a trial, how do you know they are guilty of that?

quote:


hell yes torture, thats my thing any ways..SO farglebarg a little scene here for you if I may....some terrorist has hidden a bomb strapped to one of your love ones and the only way to extract info to save them was torture,then you ..yeah buddy you would be the first in line...bounty


I disagree. But let me ask you this, since to you it would be acceptable.

Would you rape that person's child in front of them, if it would help loosen their tongue? In your calculus of life, what's one more dead child to save 100,000 people -- or your own family -- to you? It *appears* that would be acceptable to your twisted logic?

Would you kill their child to make them talk?

How are you any different from them?


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/22/2007 10:03:42 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 10:01:25 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Do the supporters of torture really want 18 or 19 year old men being trained and desensitized to commiting atrocities? What will these men do once their military careers are over? Who is going to hire a guy who spent the last 4+ years water boarding and/or using electro shock to the genitals of prisoners? Reintegrating combat troops into civilian life is hard enough but trained torturers?

Why are even still interogating these people? After 5+ years in captivity what useful intel could they still have? If they are such outrageous threats to our lives why not put them on trial and convict them so they can be held lawfully? Or are most of these guys really random innocent Afghanis picked up during routine sweeps near Al Qaeda bases after the Taliban collapsed as most of the evidence suggests?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 10:04:31 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

We shouldn't and need not be any better


You should really read the Declaration of Independence and Federal Constitution some day.


And you should really try to understand it.

There now, reduced to your level - wasn't that exchange productive, educational, and thought provoking? Your turn...


What part of ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and UNALIENABLE RIGHTS don't you understand?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 10:06:09 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do the supporters of torture really want 18 or 19 year old men being trained and desensitized to commiting atrocities? What will these men do once their military careers are over? Who is going to hire a guy who spent the last 4+ years water boarding and/or using electro shock to the genitals of prisoners? Reintegrating combat troops into civilian life is hard enough but trained torturers?

Why are even still interogating these people? After 5+ years in captivity what useful intel could they still have? If they are such outrageous threats to our lives why not put them on trial and convict them so they can be held lawfully? Or are most of these guys really random innocent Afghanis picked up during routine sweeps near Al Qaeda bases after the Taliban collapsed as most of the evidence suggests?



Well, they COULD bring charges in US Courts against Bush, Cheney, John Does #1-500, Gonzales, etc for their torture.

Isn't that enough motive to keep them disappeared?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 10:25:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

What part of ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and UNALIENABLE RIGHTS don't you understand?


Last night while I was sleeping did the rest of the world and its population all became citizens and part of the USA abdicating their Constitutions in favor of the ours? Do you believe you'd get your Miranda 'rights' if arrested in Cuba off the GITMO base? Are you living in a Matrix "one world" government construct that the rest of us aren't aware?

Your application of US rights to all is as naive as it is admirable. Civilized behavior and action only work in a world with the common definition of "civilized". Nothing has ever been exhibited by a consensus majority of our advocacies that indicates our definition is similar. That said, their written Constitution has as much legitimacy for them as ours does to us. Why are you prejudicial and taking an arrogant position that the US Constitution should be the world standard? Outside our borders nothing within it applies. Or are you advocating a 'Pax-Americanus' where the world must accept US law or be destroyed by US bombs?

Your selectivity in applying the ideals of the US Constitution on one side of the conflict with no requirement of reciprocity is the surest path to losing the home where the document you hold in such high regard is the law of the land.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 10:43:30 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Look farg has openly admited he hates the US constitution, and only uses it for loopholes to bring down the the Government.  He only wants the rights in it, not the responsibilites.

He often claims the right to shoot anyone who threatens him or his family, with no trial....his sputtering about inaliable rights  and due process for everyone is nonsense.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 12:22:10 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Look farg has openly admited he hates the US constitution, and only uses it for loopholes to bring down the the Government.  He only wants the rights in it, not the responsibilites.

He often claims the right to shoot anyone who threatens him or his family, with no trial....his sputtering about inaliable rights  and due process for everyone is nonsense.



I love it when people make random accusations like these... they have done it to me too many times to count... either produce the posts with links to them where FB stated such, or I will consider this utter baseless bullshit and lies... thanks in advance for the procurement of said posts....

As for whether or not our constitution allows for the maltreatment of those held in our custody, it does not... which is why WarCriminalBoy had them offshored to Cuba, thinking he could SUBVERT the rule of law, our constitution, and everything we hold sacred, such as due process. Now if people have trouble giving EVERYONE and ANYONE their day in court I find that person unamerican... they aid the subversion of our values and our constitution just like WarCriminalBoy. It is what it is, and the Supreme Court agrees with me, and seeing how they are the final arbitor of our constitution and what is and is not constitutional, I would say that my "side" "view" "opinion" has more to support it than those who disagree with me...

You know, I am not sure which day the terrorists actually beat us, was it the day they flew buildings into the towers, or was it the day WarCriminalBoy, the biggest fucking terrorist in the world succeeded in stealing the presidency? Because we, the American people have lost our constitutional guarantees of provacy of an overstepping government, what the government does to the least of us, it does to all of us, even those of us accused of crimes. We have a right to the PRESUMPTION of innocence until the government proves we are guilty.. to not extend this right to anyone in the custody and care of our government is letting the terrorists win. And if that is the case, there really is nothing left to save as far as "America" goes, it is nothing but a failed social experiment... say hello to Fascism and tyrrany

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 12:42:10 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Give me a fucking break, this is entirely two different things...IF they were tried and found not guilty why those mother fuckers would be out building bombs the very same day.


..interesting argument, so by this logic anyone found not guilty of a crime will immediately upon being released go out and commit that crime.
Given that the people being held at Gitmo have not had the accusations against them tested in any meaningful way we have to, as a civilised people, assume they are innocent until proven guilty.
As for the people in this thread that have, apparently, looked into my very soul and pronounced that i don't care what happens to these people after Gitmo....i'm afraid your sixth sense doesn't work very well. i actually do care......and not just because i believe that the rule of law is important, but because by not caring we merely confirm the worst accusations against the US in particular and the West in general.....human rights, freedom and life are merely pretty words if they only apply to one nationality.....if we fail to apply them to all humans then we are as bad as any bomber......

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 12:52:49 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		WE aren't discussing everyone ,just theses turban wearing Muslims that are trying to kill us in the name of their religion..Plain and simple,our laws shouldn't apply to every tom,dick or harry that is a major threat to our country..What is good for the goose isn't good for the gander..bounty

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:03:17 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		snip..{I disagree. But let me ask you this, since to you it would be acceptable.

Would you rape that person's child in front of them, if it would help loosen their tongue? In your calculus of life, what's one more dead child to save 100,000 people -- or your own family -- to you? It *appears* that would be acceptable to your twisted logic?

Would you kill their child to make them talk?

How are you any different from them? }...Lets turn that around back to what I asked you..Would you see a child or yours kill if you knew torture to get info to save said child,then what farglebargle would you do? Be the first to turn the crank or sit on your hands and watch..YOU can't have your cake and eat it too,you wrap yourself in the stars and strips to try to prove your point what times you aren't hiding behind it..bounty
f

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:08:26 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

WE aren't discussing everyone ,just theses turban wearing Muslims that are trying to kill us in the name of their religion..Plain and simple,our laws shouldn't apply to every tom,dick or harry that is a major threat to our country..What is good for the goose isn't good for the gander..bounty


......ok, just suppose that a minority of those held at Gitmo did nothing wrong and have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you really think executing them makes the USA a safer place? Most would see how it makes enemies where none existd before, so the only way to sort things out is to have trials. Trials and the idea of innocent until proven guilty are not exclusively US constructs, they are basic human rights....applicable to all humans. If the US seriously attempts to argue that human rights are not applicable to all humans then how is that any different to the famous line 'all men are created equal, but some are more equal than others'? A line used by Orwell (and mildy paraphrased by me) to satirise the USSR in 'Animal Farm'.

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 40
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