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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:11:41 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

I'd give much more credibility to anyone posting in this thread if they gave any indication of wanting to require the same behavior from our adversaries as they do from the US. Instead, we have the usual juvenile name calling and "we are no better..." argument prevails. Telling in and of itself of the hypocritical nature of the position.

quote:

human rights, freedom and life are merely pretty words if they only apply to one nationality.....

Philo, That's a great statement. I'd say it was true and should be acted upon. The words, "human rights, freedom, and life" are also just noise when they have meaning to only one side of the conflict, and the other side doesn't respect or understand them. The least common denominator definition than should apply, in this case - our adversaries; who define "human rights" as something limited to men, "freedom" limited to the definition and strict interpretation of th Koran, and "life" valued only as much as the hero status given to children who are sacrificed when used as human smart bombs.

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 41

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:17:27 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You know, as someone that used to be a card carrying member of the ACLU I have to tell you, I DO care very much that our government does not attempt to circumvent the constitution... It is not that I use all the evil shit Bush does as a justification to say he is bad... quite the opposite, I look at all the evil shit he does and I know he is bad... big diff.

To try to paint people that do not illegal wars, torturing people without due process, extraordinary rendition, and spying on the American people as though "well they just do not like Bush so it doesn't matter what they say even though it is valid" is not honest discourse.

The Constitution does not extend to foreign nationals. Our founders did not want it to, and our Supreme Court agrees. The Constitution is not a human rights document for every citizen of the world. It just was not designed to work that way. The Constitution also has no jurisdiction outside America's borders.
During World War 2, we executed several Nazi spies. They never had a civilian trial here. They were tried in front of a military tribunal. The US Supreme Court said it was acceptable.

Human rights during times of war are protected by the Geneva Conventions. But that agreement is practically obsolete today because of various loopholes that have formed. According to the document, only uniformed soldiers captured during war are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Terrorists are usually wearing civilian clothing...which makes them exempt from the agreement.
There has also not been an official declaration of war by the US, Iraq, or Afghanistan. So in legal terms....there is no war going on.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 42

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:20:06 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The words, "human rights, freedom, and life" are also just noise when they have meaning to only one side of the conflict, and the other side doesn't respect or understand them. The least common denominator definition than should apply, in this case - our adversaries; who define "human rights" as something limited to men, "freedom" limited to the definition and strict interpretation of th Koran, and "life" valued only as much as the hero status given to children who are sacrificed when used as human smart bombs.

....i agree with you Merc, in all of the above bar the section i have italicised. i truly believe that what you suggest is simply the wrong way to look at such situations. Arguably it is precisely in situations like this that we must hold on to our 'higher' moral standards. Otherwise we negate all the other times we act, shall we say, honourably.
Imagine a man who lives a blameless life until he finds himself in opposition to an unscrupulous businessman. In response to the latters illegal business practices he also engages in such practices. They are both arrested and charged......the businessman is clearly wrong, we would both agree he deserves to be punished according to the law, however i also believe the originally blameless man may also be charged....alhough he may claim some mitigation he is still in the wrong. To lower ourselves to the same standards as an enemy is to allow them to win in the most subtle and insidious of ways.....

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 43

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:41:17 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

philosophy: i truly believe that what you suggest is simply the wrong way to look at such situations. Arguably it is precisely in situations like this that we must hold on to our 'higher' moral standards. Otherwise we negate all the other times we act, shall we say, honorably.

I would so love to agree and be on your side of this issue. Any indication of reciprocity would move my attitude closer to yours.

Your comparisons to business 'war' aren't applicable. For the most part, people don't die because of business practices, and few businesses sacrifice the lives of their children to accomplish the corporate 'mission statement'.

You know what, I'd agree right now that my position is wrong - morally. Pragmatically however, it is the only position that can be taken regarding our adversaries and provides a method of victory against them.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 44

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 1:48:25 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

philosophy: i truly believe that what you suggest is simply the wrong way to look at such situations. Arguably it is precisely in situations like this that we must hold on to our 'higher' moral standards. Otherwise we negate all the other times we act, shall we say, honorably.

I would so love to agree and be on your side of this issue. Any indication of reciprocity would move my attitude closer to yours.

Your comparisons to business 'war' aren't applicable. For the most part, people don't die because of business practices, and few businesses sacrifice the lives of their children to accomplish the corporate 'mission statement'.

You know what, I'd agree right now that my position is wrong - morally. Pragmatically however, it is the only position that can be taken regarding our adversaries and provides a method of victory against them.

...i agree that my business metaphor isn't exact, but when it comes to morality the principles have a habit of becoming absolute. Ultimately i think the only main difference between us is that i genuinely doubt that the practices you suggest will provide a method of victory. More likely in my opinion is that the conflict becomes generational....as the children of people abused today (by both sides) becomes the abusers of tomorrow. The only solution that i can see is to draw a moral line in the sand....it may make the conflict more complex but it has the capacity to defuse it in the long term.......

[edited for poorer than usual grammar]

< Message edited by philosophy -- 6/22/2007 1:49:15 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 45

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 2:01:29 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Philosophy, it's not about being better than al qeada it's about killing them before they kill us.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 46

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 2:05:03 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Philosophy, it's not about being better than al qeada it's about killing them before they kill us.

...perhaps, but the problem with Gitmo is that no-one really knows if they are all Al Quaeda.........trials might sort that one out.....

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 47

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 3:35:49 PM

nighthawk3569

Posts: 283
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

"It's God's job to forgive Bin Laden

It's our job to arrange the meeting"

The United States Marine Corps

Fast reply...to no one in particular

< Message edited by nighthawk3569 -- 6/22/2007 3:38:32 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 48

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 3:54:48 PM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If we don't treat prisoners humanly, then what's the difference between them and us?

This is a hard one.

NOT sarcasm.

Rules of War is an oxymoron.

I have seen a sig I have to agree with:

If something is worth fighting for, then it is worth fighting Dirty for.

Now, this as well, has it's range of application.

Some might think the power to exploit 3rd world labor is 'worth fighting for'.

Those among us with principles might draw the line at more extreme positions...

The point being...
If something is worth fighting, killing, dying for...
then in truth, it ought be No Holds Barred.

The place to argue then, is the point at which the 'worth' applies.

As an aside...
only a moron would 'fight fair', where the opposing side does not.

Moron: Darwin Awards candidate http://www.darwinawards.com/

ADDED:
The 'intelligence value' of information extracted under torture is, optimistically speaking, 'low'.

Who among us would not confess to 'whatever',
or make up something plausible to satisfy our interrogators,
to end the fright of torture by hostile forces?

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 49

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 3:57:16 PM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

We are hyper-powerful, and should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
"Little Johnny tortures too.", is a crummy justification.

Ooh! I am gonna steal this for my Sig collection!!!

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 50

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:02:42 PM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Uh, we don't strap 10lbs of Semtex onto unmentionables and send them off to die.

Neither, I suspect, have ANY of those poor creatures at Gitmo

No, of course I have no 'proof'... but then, nor have you...

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 51

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:04:49 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

As an aside...
only a moron would 'fight fair', where the opposing side does not.

.....a moron or someone to whom the word ethics is more than an english county with a lisp........

(in reply to kiyari)

Post #: 52

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:18:42 PM

kiyari

Posts: 631
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nighthawk3569

   "It's God's job to forgive Bin Laden

     It's our job to arrange the meeting"


                                          The United States Marine Corps

Fast reply...to no one in particular

SUPER SIG!!! Thank You

I may have my doubts
about Bin Laden having anything at all to do with 9-11

...and I had [pre 9-11] never, ever,
heard of the mythological Enemy now widely known as 'al queda'

None of this, however, diminishes the Greatness of this as a Sig-line

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to nighthawk3569)

Post #: 53

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:36:52 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

I have many time and continue to do so..Theses days and times call for measures our founding fathers couldn't have imagine..

That's pretty much what Hitler said after Kristalsnacht.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 54

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:39:09 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

What part of ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and UNALIENABLE RIGHTS don't you understand?

Last night while I was sleeping did the rest of the world and its population all became citizens and part of the USA abdicating their Constitutions in favor of the ours?

That's the Declaration of Independence.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 55

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:41:53 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Look farg has openly admited he hates the US constitution, and only uses it for loopholes to bring down the the Government. He only wants the rights in it, not the responsibilites.

It's not for me to like or hate. It IS for the Federal Government to obey, Unconditionally.

quote:

He often claims the right to shoot anyone who threatens him or his family, with no trial....his sputtering about inaliable rights and due process for everyone is nonsense.

*I* am not the Federal Government, created and bound by the Constitution, am I?

Nope, I am a PERSON, therefore the Constitution is MEANINGLESS FOR ME. It *ONLY* specifies the permissible acts of the Federal Government.

You want to give the Feds permission to torture people, CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION. Until you do change it, these are the rules THE GOVERNMENT MUST OBEY.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 56

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:43:21 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

WE aren't discussing everyone ,just theses turban wearing Muslims that are trying to kill us in the name of their religion..Plain and simple,our laws shouldn't apply to every tom,dick or harry that is a major threat to our country..What is good for the goose isn't good for the gander..bounty

So, what does Due Process and Equal Protection mean?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 57

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:46:30 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sorry but I'm just not one of those people who has any type of sympathy for al qeada in any way, shape or form.
Wouldn't it be funny if, after 6 months of being housed in an Afgani prison the lefties start yelling; "Open up GTMO again! Afgani prisons are too cruel!"
Oh, I don't think so! lol

then you must love the cia since they created them :)

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 58

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:47:22 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

snip..{I disagree. But let me ask you this, since to you it would be acceptable.

Would you rape that person's child in front of them, if it would help loosen their tongue? In your calculus of life, what's one more dead child to save 100,000 people -- or your own family -- to you? It *appears* that would be acceptable to your twisted logic?

Would you kill their child to make them talk?

How are you any different from them? }...Lets turn that around back to what I asked you..Would you see a child or yours kill if you knew torture to get info to save said child,then what farglebargle would you do? Be the first to turn the crank or sit on your hands and watch..YOU can't have your cake and eat it too,you wrap yourself in the stars and strips to try to prove your point what times you aren't hiding behind it..bounty
f

This *IS interesting. Are FREE MEN AND WOMEN bound by the restrictions of action specified in the Federal Constitution?

Of COURSE THEY AREN'T. So it's wrong to pretend that someone acting as an individual is the same class as someone acting on behalf of The People's Government.

So, while you'd choose to muddy the waters, you haven't told us if TO YOU it was acceptable for a Government Agent to rape and murder a child to obtain information from their parents, POTENTIALLY saving many lives.

Well, DO YOU SANCTION RAPING AND MURDERING CHILDREN TO TORTURE SECRETS OUT OF THEIR PARENTS, IF IT WILL MAKE THE SUBJECT TALK?

Own ALL the implications of your beliefs.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 59

RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 4:49:08 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

I'd give much more credibility to anyone posting in this thread if they gave any indication of wanting to require the same behavior from our adversaries as they do from the US

The essential difference being that the "Enemy" isn't torturing people IN YOUR NAME, and AGAINST YOUR RULES.

If there's no ETHICAL OR MORAL difference between Them and Us, why are we fighting them?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 60

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