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Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 3:35:59 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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Training as a general concept is a wonderful thing, I have learned much in life through training and I teach as well and get a great deal out of that as well. Training as it relates to the WIIWD has its place as well. Attending seminars/classes are a great way to learn a technical skill or to get a glimpse of how others do things. Desiring to learn a specific skill and searching out someone gifted and experienced to teach you is a wise thing to do.

Where I part ways with training is dominants training submissives. I part ways with it not because it is an impossible accomplishment, we see quite a few posts from people who look back fondly on such a training experience. I part ways with it because the skills a submissive lacks and needs training for are often the very ones needed to pick a good partner and because the pool of people who offer to train is pretty dismal, those two things combined together make the chances of a successful experience very low, the benefits often minimal if any, and that there are other paths with far better chances of success with much less risk.

So, when people ask me, should I seek out a trainer, I tell them "no, trainers are a bad idea, better to watch and learn on your own, ask questions, and when you find a real partner, learn and grow with them" Are there other paths, of course! Bill Gates didn't go to college but it isn't a path I would recommend to high school kids. I feel the same way about training and especially about trainers in the BDSM world, it isn't that it never works, it just almost never works.

Post #: 1

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 3:43:29 AM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

I could be perfectly trained to kneel, but what if he wants me to crawl?
It seems much more important for me to learn to be mentally adaptable to his many different whims. That will get me much farther in pleasing him than any kind of formal physical training.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 2

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 3:44:23 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

I suppose I'm being nitpicky (who me?) but "training" as in "training a submissive" just sets my teeth on edge. For me, the word "training" (in this context) has a negative connotation...as though the submissive lacks some necessary element to be submissive and only the almighty Trainer can give it to her. Now, I don't have a problem with the concept of teaching as opposed to training, but I think of it more in the way that you've just stated, Michael.

To think that anyone, no matter how long s/he's been in the "lifestyle", to be submissive to anyone but him or herself, makes no sense to me. Thus, the idea of being trained to be submissive (by a third party) is simply out of my realm.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 6/22/2007 3:46:11 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 3

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 4:15:31 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Bandit, that pretty much says it for me. I want to train her to do what I want and behave the way I want.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 4

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 4:50:41 AM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Where I part ways with training is dominants training submissives. I part ways with it not because it is an impossible accomplishment, we see quite a few posts from people who look back fondly on such a training experience. I part ways with it because the skills a submissive lacks and needs training for are often the very ones needed to pick a good partner and because the pool of people who offer to train is pretty dismal, those two things combined together make the chances of a successful experience very low, the benefits often minimal if any, and that there are other paths with far better chances of success with much less risk.

Agreed, although I must add the subs who lack skills to pick a proper partner will typically find partners who lack relationship skills. I never had a trainer outside my previous Sir and Master but I do see some benefit from having a trainer.

I don't mean this trainer can train a girl to be perfect for every man, but, like a drill sergeant in boot camp, he can make her realize the importance of listening to and acting upon commands. Will this trainer teach her how to have good solid relationships? Probably not, but neither would an improper choice of a Sir or Master.

At least training would give the girl something to focus on, and (hopefully, perhaps) keep her from unhealthy promiscuous behavior. If a trainer can get a girl in a proper mindset, to realize that she is worth more than just her pussy, then I see a vast benefit in training. If said trainer only uses his position to get a lotta leg from naive submissives, I think we are in agreement that "training" would be a detriment.

< Message edited by slaveish -- 6/22/2007 4:51:11 AM >

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 5

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 4:52:49 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

The only "training" that would interest me would take place as part of a relationship. I would be learning what the dominant enjoys and requires. I still don't understand how one person can train a sub for another. The entire thing will never make sense to me.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to slaveish)

Post #: 6

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 5:04:32 AM

nearnyccouple

Posts: 70
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline

ditto to what Michael said......
another aspect that i havent seen mentioned is how these "trainers" remain completely stoic, and yet expect the submissive to pour their hearts out and share their dreams, hopes etc. , so that an emotional attachment occurs quite often for the submissive, who in the end gets burned pretty badly.
the expectation may be set out in the beginning, but when youre dealing wth emotions, all bets are off. ive seen it happen over and over, especially to newbies who dont know any better and can end up totally turned off to the lifestyle because of one bad experience.

cassie

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 7

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 5:30:05 AM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

If a mans going to prey on newbies and look to use and or abouse them in some fashion it doesn't matter what label he gives himself - top, trainer, master, dom, etc. i am sure just as many newbies get burned from their "first Master" as much as some would from a trainer. i think when anyone "get's burned" it's not 100% the fault of the person doing the burning. People, even newbies, need to take responsibility for their well being, safety, needs, etc when seeking ANYONE out.

i don't think people look for trainers to train them specifically to serve all other doms, that would be rather silly. i think they more then likely show them a variety of ways things might be done, maybe give them experience in how things feel, etc. As long as both are up front about expectations i see nothing wrong with learning about the lifestyle any way you choose to.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to nearnyccouple)

Post #: 8

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 5:56:01 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

I agree with most of what's been said.

I also had a nice conversation yesterday with a girl who explained the positive aspects of being 'trained.' She had a lot of trepidation related to a D/s relationship, but by meeting and agreeing to a relationship in a limited context with another couple, she was able to learn a great deal about herself without the added weight of a serious, long term relationship. She didn't have to worry about the long term impact of anything, since she knew there were clearly set boundaries.

I would liken it to learning about chocolate. You can learn a lot about it by reading articles and chemical compositions, etc but being able to actually go to the factory and seeing how it's made, tasting the ingredients, and seeing how it is done can give you a 'hands on' learning experience without the risk of buying your own factory.

Lame metephor, I know, it's too early and I've been without coffee for 10 days. Grrrrr

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 9

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 6:46:41 AM

MaamJay

Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline

I think there is a world of difference in someone responsible giving a new sub a taste of the "chocolate" to use Stephan's metaphor ... and them embarking on a training program which aims to mould the chocolate into a particular shape which may or may not please the person who finally receives the chocolate box! I have done the former ... given new subs a gentle taste of what sorts of things BDSM can encompass ... very much experiential, not so much D/s ... at the same time, trying to educate them about safe calls, safewords, negotiation, subspace, subdrop, aftercare etc etc so they are better equipped to venture forth and explore this lifestyle for themselves. I have specifically NOT tried to train them in My ways. Where possible, I draw attention to things I know that I like which other Dom/mes may not eg I don't want subs to conform to the "eyes down" rule that many Dominants prefer, I like My subs to wriggle and vocalise during impact play whereas other Dominants may order them to be still and silent. I don't knock anyone else's choice, I just clarify why Mine is different as My preference. I would never be so presumptuous as to think I could train someone to be just right for someone else! It's hard enough to train them to be just right for Me! So I'm in agreement with Michael as to that type of training being inappropriate.

Similarly the word Mentor gets bad press around here at times ... and when used to signify someone whose influence becomes very significant to the sub, and who may undertake some "training" ... then again, I don't think that is appropriate. I tend to use the word Mentor to simply be a friend who can advise and help guide but who doesn't actually interfere. I can empathise with new subs who aren't sure if they're being spun a line or not in their early talks with Dominants ... and some of the lines I've heard were definitely spun with fantasy threads! I think it can be very helpful for them to have someone to contact and say ... from your experience, do you think is this for real or not? What do you think about xyz? Would I be safe in taking this course of action? I stress I am giving advice only, their course of action is ultimately up to them ... mostly I am able to suggest a somewhat safer way to go about something ... or a more appropriate way in which to get more information required. And I also use Mentor as an advisor to newbie Dominants too! They need empathy and assistance as well ... but not interference unless it is a matter of safety for the sub the Dominant is playing with.

In short, it is a matter of boundaries really ... knowing what role more experienced people should play in the development of knowledge and experience in people new to the scene.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 10

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:26:58 AM

octavia

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline

I've already heard it eluded too, but the thoughts that come to my mind right away are the emotions. I don't seek out a trainer (although I do need lots of help learning to be submissive) because I would fall in love and I know it.

I have approched people here whom I respect and admire and asked them questions and advice. I even told a prospective Dom for me not to expect me to give that right up. In life I always seek out those whom I can learn from and try to gleen what I can. What better way to become the person that I want to be than to learn from people who are doing/are where I strive to end up.

octavia

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 11

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:34:16 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If a mans going to prey on newbies and look to use and or abouse them in some fashion it doesn't matter what label he gives himself - top, trainer, master, dom, etc. i am sure just as many newbies get burned from their "first Master" as much as some would from a trainer. i think when anyone "get's burned" it's not 100% the fault of the person doing the burning. People, even newbies, need to take responsibility for their well being, safety, needs, etc when seeking ANYONE out.

i don't think people look for trainers to train them specifically to serve all other doms, that would be rather silly. i think they more then likely show them a variety of ways things might be done, maybe give them experience in how things feel, etc. As long as both are up front about expectations i see nothing wrong with learning about the lifestyle any way you choose to.

There is a tremendous difference as to what someone calls themselves as to what you might expect from that person....If a sub is getting involved with a Dom....as the relationship continues you would expect it to manifest itself in a sexual nature.....The relationship may or may not work out...At least there is honesty and not an immediate deception as to what that individual is looking for....when one portrays themselves as someone who is a "teacher or trainer" They tend to allude to the belief that they are part of some alruistic society and that have only the subs best interest at heart.....The poor lil' subby is so confused and devastated when their sacred, bdsm, spirit guide rams his cock in her ass.

Stay away from trainers....Only pea-heads use them.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/22/2007 7:36:30 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 12

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:38:15 AM

nearnyccouple

Posts: 70
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline

velvet,
i dont disagree that each of us needs to take responsibility for ourselves when seeking anyone out, and its true that many cover themselves by taking different labels.
perhaps i should have said its been my experience in seeing this occur most oftentimes with those ive known getting involved with trainers.
i have to disagree with part of your last paragraph. i think that especially for newbies, they're not educated enough about the lifestyle to know that most dominants want to train their submissives to please them, and no one else. they're fed a bunch of lines and are so darn needy they are willing to agree without knowing what theyre really getting into.
as far as training for a particular skill, i have no issue with that.
as you said, everyone is entitled to learn about the lifestyle in the manner that they choose. but knowledge beforehand can save a lot of time, grief and heartache.

cassie

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 13

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:38:19 AM

SeeksOnlyOne

Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

The only "training" that would interest me would take place as part of a relationship. I would be learning what the dominant enjoys and requires. I still don't understand how one person can train a sub for another. The entire thing will never make sense to me.

amen.....dom x trains you for how he wants things done, then you meet dom y and he wants things done differently.

imho, "training" for any reason other than to learn what the one you wish to serve desires.....would be just a way to get some kink while you search for the one.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 14

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:38:54 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

domiguy, will you train me how to be a better sub.
will the training include anything other than how to give a good bj?
just asking.....

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 15

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:39:32 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

I've had over two dozen people approach me via my local communities and ask me to train them. Why? They felt I was safe and could give then a nice introduction to various BDSM activities and help them figure out what they liked and disliked. I think all of them walked away much better informed about themselves than they were before me. A very small number of them I was/am privileged to later own as my own slave. Almost all of them went on to find great relationships and become active in their own local communities wherever they moved. I am still in contract with some of them but the point wasn't to make friends for life, it was to help someone grow.

I took their trust and potential seriously, I treated them as a teacher would a student not as a way to have kinky sex. Sexual contact isn't part of my training program unless we have enough mutual desire and in common to go beyond training as a couple.

Of course I don't go around offering to train people. It is part of the formal prodecure I go through in any potential Ds relationship and others find out about it and come to me. I'd guess that 90+% of people who have approached me for this I turn down because I don't feel they have enough potential or are as serious as I want. I don't do this for money afterall, I do this for myself and for the trainee.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 16

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 7:47:10 AM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

domiguy, will you train me how to be a better sub.
will the training include anything other than how to give a good bj?
just asking.....

Get in line.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 17

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 8:08:28 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

i agree. There's nothing i ever learned from a trainer (admittedly, i only ever went to one for about 6 sessions) that i didn't already know or didn't learn more effectively from the Dom or Master i was serving, primarily because i am much more motivated to learn and succeed in developing and improving my skills and abilities when i have my whole heart and soul in it and i actually care about the person who i am learning from, because i want to please Him.
There was one thing that the trainer i went to helped me with that was very good. Because i didn't care about him in any special way, he was able to help me break down the internal barriers that i had up to protect my pride from "humiliation" and that allowed me to be less inhibited and to let myself be much more receptive to whatever my Dom/Master expected/required me to do. It allowed me to be less focused on "me" and stop worrying about what "He" might think of me, if i did this or that thing. So that part of my "training" was very good, although it's possible i could have gotten there without ever going to see him. Life and experiences are the best classroom and teacher for this slave.____________slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." -- F. Nietzsche

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Training as a general concept is a wonderful thing, I have learned much in life through training and I teach as well and get a great deal out of that as well. Training as it relates to the WIIWD has its place as well. Attending seminars/classes are a great way to learn a technical skill or to get a glimpse of how others do things. Desiring to learn a specific skill and searching out someone gifted and experienced to teach you is a wise thing to do.

Where I part ways with training is dominants training submissives. I part ways with it not because it is an impossible accomplishment, we see quite a few posts from people who look back fondly on such a training experience. I part ways with it because the skills a submissive lacks and needs training for are often the very ones needed to pick a good partner and because the pool of people who offer to train is pretty dismal, those two things combined together make the chances of a successful experience very low, the benefits often minimal if any, and that there are other paths with far better chances of success with much less risk.

So, when people ask me, should I seek out a trainer, I tell them "no, trainers are a bad idea, better to watch and learn on your own, ask questions, and when you find a real partner, learn and grow with them" Are there other paths, of course! Bill Gates didn't go to college but it isn't a path I would recommend to high school kids. I feel the same way about training and especially about trainers in the BDSM world, it isn't that it never works, it just almost never works.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 18

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 8:16:00 AM

Leisel

Posts: 6
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline

I've read many a thread, and listened to many a theory and argument on the "training" of submissives on a non attached, non commital level. People have various and valid reason for wishing to train or be trained by someone on a casual basis.

I've always thought, though never implemented, the idea that as a submissive, I would absolutely love to train a potential, newbie dominate in the art of learning to be a sensitive, compassionate, loving, nurturing person outside of the leather, whips and chains personae. Teach him to value the individual submissive, not just see this realm as a personal challenge to "train" every woman who responds to them.

But I also understand that some people don't wish to attach themselves. It's just physical protocol. This is a part of the turn on.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 19

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/22/2007 9:01:02 AM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

quote:

They felt I was safe and could give then a nice introduction to various BDSM activities and help them figure out what they liked and disliked.

I think this is better described as "learning through experience", and I think there is a big difference between this approach and something labelled "training" which implies a fixed curriculum that leaves the trainee knowing how to do something right.

I may be quibbling over semantics, but it seems to me that learning through experience as thetammyjoe describes leaves people knowing more about themselves while training would leave leave them with universal skills. And that sums up why I think the notion of training is hogwash while being wholeheartedly in favor of learning through experience. Even in my own relationships I prefer thinking in terms of learning through experience rather than training because it goes both ways and I'm usually improvising rather than training anyway.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 20

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