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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/11/2005 11:12:54 PM

Lordandmaster

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If you're not interested, why are you perpetuating this? I don't understand. No one is forcing you to remove the quote. No one is even forcing you to concede that it's wrong.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/11/2005 11:31:06 PM

onceburned

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I've already invited onceburned to e-mail me offline

Indeed. And of course, I did. But since this seems to be a recurring topic of conversation, perhaps we should discuss it more openly.

I am not sure if worrying about the precision of translation is important. If the book is seen as a finger pointing at the moon, is it necessary to worry about the exact shape of the finger?

In the translation that I have, the author admits he did not do a literal translation, but tried to capture the intent of Lao Tzu. Perhaps it could be argued that he was too much influenced by Zen Buddhism, of which he was a student... but picking out the differences between Zen and Taoism is a specialty far beyond my limited experience and understanding.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/11/2005 11:54:59 PM

Lordandmaster

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What's wrong is that the finger isn't pointing at the moon. It's pointing at an insipid 20th-century fiction and passing it off as a classic book that millions of people know well in the original language, even if most Americans never will. You don't think anyone would mind if you misquoted the Koran? Or the Bible? (Christ knows people get touchy about their Bible around here.)

But really, I regret that I brought this up. The person who has this quote appended to all his posts doesn't care that it's wrong, and I'm not going to turn this thread into a Lao-tzu discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
I am not sure if worrying about the precision of translation is important. If the book is seen as a finger pointing at the moon, is it necessary to worry about the exact shape of the finger?

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 12:01:39 AM

SweetDommes

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And now the billion dollar question ... *drum roll*

LAM - why DID you feel the need to totally derail a serious discussion with something that obviously most people feel is rather trivial?

On topic (well, kinda)

The only experience I have had with a true hermaphrodite (meaning sexual organs of both genders) was with my cat. The vet tried to tell me that even though my cat had a ball sac (but nothing in them yet ... not surprising, he was quite young at the time so I just figured they hadn't decended yet), he was a female. Low and behold, after "spaying" my cat, he discovered that Grendel did have a uterus and 1 ovary, but he also had 2 testes. Overall, my cat is masculine, so I still call him a boy (obviously).

It happens in all species, but it is rather rare - and it's even more rare for both sets of genitals to be functioning, and it's quite hazardous to the hermaphrodite if they are both functioning because of the conflicting hormonal messages that the body has to deal with.

The method that this Domme used to check you out was ... um ... interesting. Personally, I would just tell a potential, because if it's going to be a problem, it's going to be a problem after 3 weeks of working towards a relationship or 3 months+ of working towards a relationship (or actually being in the relationship). I'd rather get it out of the way and not waste our time or the potential's. It seems rather ... deceitful to me, how she went about it.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 12:03:58 AM

Lordandmaster

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I made ONE comment about it--on this thread because this is the thread where I noticed it--and everyone else went apeshit.

Besides, people hijack threads all the time. That's life in the anonymous internet world. I don't limit my comments to what I reckon other people might consider non-trivial.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

And now the billion dollar question ... *drum roll*

LAM - why DID you feel the need to totally derail a serious discussion with something that obviously most people feel is rather trivial?

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 7:00:06 AM

anthrosub

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Well, reqardless of who translated it, which school of thought it properly belongs to, who the real author is, and whether or not it accurately conveys the original...it still has value and I like it.

Lordandmaster is wrong to say that those of us who have responded are going "apeshit." On the contrary, our posts reveal that we are interested. But Lordand master has revealed he has a set of parameters that in his way of thinking constitutes "interest" and until we meet those requirements, he will continue to respond as if we are not.

Finally, I think this whole discussion is a good demonstration of the quote's message. Here's another that approaches it...

Don't worry...be happy.

anthrosub

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 7:56:30 AM

Lordandmaster

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It's one or the other, anthro--either you're interested or you're not. If you're not, that's your right, but then don't pretend that you really ARE interested after all.

Why are you prolonging this? I don't understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

Lordandmaster is wrong to say that those of us who have responded are going "apeshit." On the contrary, our posts reveal that we are interested.

quote:

Not contacting you by email is not an indication I'm not interested.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 8:05:31 AM

Raphael

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You know, I've been following this, and refraining from comment because I didn't want to hijack the thread.

But LAM is right about at least one thing, you're perpetuating it, and since you're the original poster, I guess it's your thread to hijack.

I'm not sure what LAMs point here really is, but this is one of my favourite books, one I've spent quite a bit of time with, and I have to say I think the line in your sig is a really awful translation.

Of course the book it's from was written a very long time ago, and the language is rather difficult for even a fluent, native chinese speaker (which I am not) to understand without special study. So I'm not going to try to tell you I know just what lao tse meant when he wrote the line "Jué xué wú you" - I'll just show you how a couple of other translations render it and let you make up your own mind if it really means 'stop thinking.'

Dr. Hilmar Klaus' literal translation has it as "Abandon scholarship: no more worries."

Raymond B. Blakney's rather scrupulous translation has it "Be done with rote learning and its attendant vexations."

Beck puts it like this: "Abandon memorizing, and vexations end."

In a way they're close to yours, but you may see a common theme there, referring not to thought itself, so much as to structures that limit thought... memorisation, rote learning, scholarship... the trappings of confucian academia.

In the context of the book as a whole, as well as this verse, and the traditional commentary, I think that's a lot more accurate. And I've got to admit, I cringe every time I see that line attributed as a quote to Lao Tse.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 8:17:43 AM

Lordandmaster

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All right, since ONE person appears to be interested, I'll explain why the translation is a disaster.

First, as I've said, Mitchell doesn't know Chinese.

Second, jue doesn't mean "stop"; it means "cut off," "break away from."

Xue doesn't mean "thinking"; it means "study," especially of an orthodox or scholastic kind.

Wu means "there is not."

You doesn't mean "problems"; it means "vexation, worry, consternation."

The phrase means "Cut off learning, and there will be no more vexations."

"Stop thinking and end your problems" is a stupid 20th-century mindless trivialization of something much deeper, more interesting, more profound--all in all, something that fewer people would have thought to say. Anthro, if it pleases you to call that "Lao-tzu" on the basis of a translation by someone who doesn't know Chinese in the first place--I suppose it's your God-given right. But don't pretend to wonder why people who know the book you're quoting will object. Even if it mystifies you, some people take these things seriously.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael

Of course the book it's from was written a very long time ago, and the language is rather difficult for even a fluent, native chinese speaker (which I am not) to understand without special study. So I'm not going to try to tell you I know just what lao tse meant when he wrote the line "Jué xué wú you" - I'll just show you how a couple of other translations render it and let you make up your own mind if it really means 'stop thinking.'

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 8:36:36 AM

anthrosub

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Thanks for posting. Maybe it will help clarify why I've perpetuated this off topic discussion with Lordandmaster if I say what you just wrote is more or less what I thought he had to offer. I don't know why he's so insistent that only through private email can we discuss this quote any further or why my not wanting to take that route is an indication I'm not interested. I think keeping the discussion here where it started is good for others who may be interested in learning something. Further, if someone says something about me...I respond. I try my best to keep it civil as I'm very aware of the danger of how words can be misinterpreted and all the other BS that can follow.

I've spent most of my life exploring philosophy on my own and took as many courses as I could in college. My copy of the Tao Te Ching is from Vintage (translated by Gia-Fu-Feng and Jane English). I'll have to go through it and find what their version reads. I like Taoism and Zen for their down to earth, no nonsense approach but my real appreciation leans towards Krishamurti. His thoughts go right to the core in my view.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 9:49:06 AM

Raphael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
My copy of the Tao Te Ching is from Vintage (translated by Gia-Fu-Feng and Jane English). I'll have to go through it and find what their version reads.

"Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles."

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 11:22:12 AM

anthrosub

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Thanks Raphael. Time to end my problems.

anthrosub

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 12:26:48 PM

onceburned

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael
Dr. Hilmar Klaus' literal translation has it as "Abandon scholarship: no more worries."

Raymond B. Blakney's rather scrupulous translation has it "Be done with rote learning and its attendant vexations."

Beck puts it like this: "Abandon memorizing, and vexations end."

Thank you very much for sharing those with us. It is definitely food for thought. <g>

I am struck by the similarily to Ecclesiastes, which is about the vanity of pursuing desires in life. It includes, at the end: " Of the making of many books there is no end, and in much study there is weariness for the flesh."

quote:

Thanks Raphael. Time to end my problems.

anthrosub

LMAO!

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 2:25:28 PM

anthrosub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

Thank you very much for sharing those with us. It is definitely food for thought. <g>

I am struck by the similarily to Ecclesiastes, which is about the vanity of pursuing desires in life. It includes, at the end: " Of the making of many books there is no end, and in much study there is weariness for the flesh."

This dovetails nicely with what the Tao Te Ching says in the very beginning about the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. You can go on and on trying to describe/define what the great mystery of life is but it will always remain outside that definition and leave the person feeling there's still more to say. I think this is the essence of what the "other" quote is saying.

anthrosub

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 3:02:29 PM

Lordandmaster

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Because you said so yourself, anthro:

quote:

Not contacting you by email is not an indication I'm not interested.

Edited to add: I invited people to contact me offline because I thought that was the best way to avoid hijacking the thread. But since the OP didn't mind that the thread was hijacked--he even contributed to hijacking it--it doesn't bother me either. Anyway, now I'm done with this. Anthro, your quote is wrong. End of story.

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I don't know why he's so insistent that only through private email can we discuss this quote any further or why my not wanting to take that route is an indication I'm not interested.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/12/2005 3:15:41 PM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 6:37:25 PM

anthrosub

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I'm glad to hear you've decided to end your problems, too.

anthrosub

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 9:45:13 PM

FelinePersuasion

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The link posted it says Ginger

quote:

Transgender is a broad term that refers to people who don't conform to traditional gender. It includes transsexuals, who transition from male to female or female to male, as well as people who dress in another gender's clothing

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 11:05:28 PM

onceburned

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion
The link posted it says Ginger

Eh?

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/12/2005 11:53:12 PM

FelinePersuasion

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Ginger wanted to know what was the diffrence between interxed and transgendered. that site explains it.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 3:32:50 AM

MzBerlin

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LAM-
I think the issue here was your assertion that anthro was wrong, and not offering up a 'why' or a correct translation in your initial post asserting that.
I enjoy anthros' sig line and actually had it as a screensaver on my last computer. I "got" the intent. It's nice to know what more exact translation is.
Now, lets get back to intersexed people. I see a lot of them at work, but they don't really seem to be into BDSM.
-B

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