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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 6:48:29 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		I read through the additional posts to this thread...

…Simple explanation of the difference between a transsexual & an intersexed person.

Transsexual: person born to one gender & mentally/emotionally (spiritually) identify as the other gender. Studies have also revealed that the hypothalamus closely matches that of the target gender of transsexuals.

Rather than dig through many of my stored documents, I googled & produced a few links...

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm
http://heathers.net/psy/brain-clue.html

Essentially it says the hypothalamus is the area that sexuality is controlled in the brain & there is a noticeable difference between men & women & that transsexuals match that of their target gender.

Intersexed persons often are born with traces of genitalia of both genders, as well as a deeper level that that identifies intersexed , their chromosomes are interlaced with both X & Y. How often does this happen...

<edit>Due to the debate that followed what was deemed as an incorrect word usage within my contribution to this thread I will attempt to use a more suitable word. For a breif moment I visualized the model of DNA which is represented by a "ribbon". This was my error since it was chromosomes I was speaking about. This image is what lead me to using the word interlaced. The definition of interlaced I refered to is as follows... "Spin or twist together so as to form a cord". The word I should have used is attached. XY= male, XX= female & in the case of intersexed persons the additional chromosome is present thus produces XXY, XYY, & many of the various other examples offered within the links posted & the continued discussion within this thread.

It is my hope that one word that was considered as incorrect does not take away from the discussion in a way that anyone will walk away without gaining a better understanding of this topic. It is my wish to open people up to knowledge about transgendered people.

I quote from one source...

"To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do."

"how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life."

Now finally... why is it that most of us are not aware of transgendered persons in our community or elsewhere???

http://www.gender.org/remember/about/index2.html

This site is a memorial of persons who are now dead because of violent crimes of hate because of their 'differences'. Often mutilated in these attacks... (

(Quite sad how ignorance & intolerance can result in such horrid crimes & even sadder, how often these persons that carry out these crimes receive extremely light punishment for their crimes)

MstrssPassion


ps... as to the debate of the quote

my own two cents

"Stop bickering over senseless BS... & end our problems"

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 6/15/2005 5:57:49 AM >

(in reply to MzBerlin)
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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 2:42:31 PM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		Thank you for your informed contribution to this thread (on both counts). I was not aware of the physical similarities of transsexuals to their target gender and find that absolutely fascinating.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 8:40:41 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not a biologist, but this cannot be right. I don't even understand what it would mean: chromosomes are either X or Y. As I understand it, defects can occur when chromosomes are damaged, shortened, etc., but not because they "interlaced" with both X and Y. For example, there is such a thing called Turner's Syndrome, where a female has either a single X chromosome, or two X chromosomes but with one incomplete.

A good online resource for hermaphroditism is from Medline Plus, sponsored by the National Institutes of Health:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

their chromosomes are interlaced with both X & Y

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 9:56:22 PM   
SweetDommes


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Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		*warning in advance - genetics lesson coming up ... no, I don't claim to know everything, but I do remember this much from my genetics classes*

There are cases of X, XXY, XYY, Y (those tend to not survive long, if they even make it to birth), XXXY, XXYY ... you get the picture. All of these cause physical gender abnormalities, and often cause psychological gender identity issues. There are cases where a genetic XY is born physically looking XX (there is a famous actress who is genetically male ... and no, I'm not going to reveal which one ... now ya'll will wonder *evil laugh*), and XX who appear XY - and this is how they were born, not "gender reassignment" (using the term loosely, of course).

There are also people who have pieces of the X and Y chromosomes ... trade places is the best way to explain it. It's something similar to one of the versions of Down's syndrome where parts of the chromosome affected (of course, now I can't remember which one it is... sorry) are transferred from one copy to the other when the egg/sperm is dividing, but they don't transfer equally - one will trade 1/2 of the length, one will trade only 1/3 ... well, if the one that gave up 1/3 but accepted 1/2 is the lucky winner of the fertilization game there is now extra coding on that chromosome - part of it is duplicated. This happens with all chromosomes sometimes, but that is one that is visibly noticed in it's expression and isn't lethal. Oh, that is also one way that the partial X chromosome can occur in Turner's syndrome only with the one who accepted 1/3 (or less) and gave up 1/2 (or more) being the 'winner.'

Since it does happen with all chromosomes, obviously, it happens with the X and Y chromosomes as well - which is one of the theories behind transgendered individuals and why they occur and why they have physical features (such as the hypothalmus example) of their mental gender. Therefore, they are not necessarily "either X or Y." I'm not saying that I agree with Passion's wording of her statement about the chromosomes being "interlaced" but saying that it has to be "either, or" isn't entirely accurate either.

< Message edited by SweetDommes -- 6/13/2005 9:58:06 PM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 10:42:30 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		That's not accurate either. This is a good explanation of the various causes of Down Syndrome (Trisomy 21):

http://www.ds-health.com/trisomy.htm

I assume you're talking about Robertsonian translocation, which according to this article causes 3-4% of Down Syndrome cases. Material from other chromosomes, usually the 14th chromosome, is mixed with the 21st, causing triplication of the 21st chromosome. That still doesn't mean the chromosomes are "interlaced." It means that the person has three chromosomes (or parts of three chromosomes) where they should have two.

Lam

Edited to add: I can't pretend that I really understand this stuff--is anyone on here a doctor or biologist? I'm curious to know the answers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

There are also people who have pieces of the X and Y chromosomes ... trade places is the best way to explain it. It's something similar to one of the versions of Down's syndrome where parts of the chromosome affected (of course, now I can't remember which one it is... sorry) are transferred from one copy to the other when the egg/sperm is dividing, but they don't transfer equally - one will trade 1/2 of the length, one will trade only 1/3 ... well, if the one that gave up 1/3 but accepted 1/2 is the lucky winner of the fertilization game there is now extra coding on that chromosome - part of it is duplicated.



< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/13/2005 10:51:44 PM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/13/2005 11:24:16 PM   
SweetDommes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's not accurate either. This is a good explanation of the various causes of Down Syndrome (Trisomy 21):

http://www.ds-health.com/trisomy.htm

I assume you're talking about Robertsonian translocation, which according to this article causes 3-4% of Down Syndrome cases. Material from other chromosomes, usually the 14th chromosome, is mixed with the 21st, causing triplication of the 21st chromosome. That still doesn't mean the chromosomes are "interlaced." It means that the person has three chromosomes (or parts of three chromosomes) where they should have two.

Lam


Thank you for posting which chromosome it is, and yes, my description of the transferrance is what Robertsonian translocation is ... I just couldn't remember the name (it has been a few years since genetics class ... but I do remember most of it). That is the cause of what is sometimes called "partial down's syndrome" - the characteristics are not as pronounced in these cases as they are when there are actually three whole copies of the 21st chromosome.

I also specifically stated that I didn't agree with the "interlaced" phrasing (my exact words were "I'm not saying that I agree with Passion's wording of her statement about the chromosomes being "interlaced" "), so please don't act as if I do agree with it. I was simply explaining that it can happen that part of the Y or X chromosome can become tranlocated onto the other - thus is it not always "either, or" when it comes to those (or any) chromosomes, which you stated.

< Message edited by SweetDommes -- 6/13/2005 11:27:05 PM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 12:26:39 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Well, but the point is that Robertsonian translocation involves the movement of part of one chromosome onto another (in the case of Down Syndrome, the 21st and usually the 14th)--NOT, at least as far as I understand, the movement of one half of a chromosome pair onto the other half. X and Y make up the same chromosome, namely the 23rd.

Again, I'm not a biologist and would really appreciate a full explanation if someone on the site is capable of giving one.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

I was simply explaining that it can happen that part of the Y or X chromosome can become tranlocated onto the other - thus is it not always "either, or" when it comes to those (or any) chromosomes, which you stated.



< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/14/2005 1:49:13 AM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 5:39:14 AM   
MstrssPassion


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Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		The following comes from several sources...

The presence of one or two additional X chromosomes in a male (XXY or XXXY) may cause Klinefelter's syndrome.

A single X chromosome (XO) is called Turner's syndrome. Is characterized by a lack or incomplete development of certain primary and secondary female characteristics and is associated with a range of medical issues.

sex chromosomal mosaicism can cause what was once called "true hermaphroditism", the presence of both testicular and ovarian tissue in one individual

One of the most common cases is a fetus with XY chromosomes but where for some reason a fertile male child does not develop. In the following cases the child retains an outward male appearance:

Swyer syndrome - damaged testis-determining factor on their Y chromosome.

Persistent mullerian duct syndrome: Child has internal uterus and fallopian tubes because Y chromosome fails to produce Mullerian inhibiting factor.

The following further XY cases leads to intersexuality:

Androgen insensitivity syndrome. They develop either partially or fully as females, due to their bodies failing to respond to testosterone. In the case of complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS), their tissues are totally insensitive to androgens, and they will develop as females, with normal female external organs. However, they will not develop a uterus or fallopian tubes, due to the production of Mullerian inhibiting factor by their testes. At puberty breasts will develop due to the production of estrogen by the testes; but no menstruation will occur due to the lack of a uterus. The tissues of individuals with partial androgen insensitivity, by contrast, have partial sensitivity to testosterone, but it is reduced compared to the male normal. These individuals can develop with either male external anatomy, or female external anatomy, or some combination, depending on the degree of insensitivity.

5-alpha-reductase deficiency. In this condition, individuals have testes, as well as vagina and labia, but with a small penis capable of ejaculation instead of a clitoris (this penis, however, appears to be a clitoris at birth). These individuals are normally raised as girls. However, come puberty, their testes will descend, their voice will deepen and they often will develop a male sexual identity. But they develop only limited facial hair. The number of people with this condition varies geographically, depending on how much of a given population is interrelated.
Excessive in utero exposure to androgens may lead to intersexuality in XX cases:

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia: Female internal anatomy, but ambiguous or male external genitalia, and develop male secondary sexual characteristics.

Progestin-induced virilisation. In this case, the male hormones are caused by use of progestin, a drug that was used in the 1950s and 1960s in order to prevent miscarriage. These individuals have internal and external female anatomy. They develop however some male secondary characteristics, and they frequently have unusually large clitorises.

In XX male syndrome (also called de la Chapelle syndrome) the resulting child is usually a phenotypically normal male, but without sperm production. This syndrome is sometimes the result of an abnormal


There is a website that contains very easy to read information on this subject.
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

MstrssPassion

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 5:56:30 AM   
MstrssPassion


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Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		LAM,

Just an observation on my behalf within this threard & not an outright attack on you but it would seem that you tend to do a search on specific keywords so that you have something to post rather than to actually take part in a discussion & share your own point of view. Thus you produce a plethora of theories.

I am sure you will come back with some sort of defensive post in regards to my statement & I will not engage in debates within an online virtual environment. They serve no purpose & I make all attempts to remain on topic & not digress to personal exchanges.

Now back to the topic & why so many points of view are produced in regards to Intersexed...(from one of my previous posts)

""To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do."

There are no definitive research results out there to prove or disprove any one theory. Medical research is just tapping into research on a genetic level. The studies of the hypothalamus can only be preformed postmortem.

If you really want to understand this topic you must do what is always advised about getting to know persons of the lifestyle, you just have to go out & meet them & talk to them. Many communities have support groups or information on transgendered persons. Try contacting a GLBT community center in your area.


MstrssPassion

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 6/14/2005 5:58:02 AM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 9:55:52 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		First, not one of the long list of syndromes you presented in the message above is a case of "interlacing" X and Y chromosomes. Defects, deletions, abnormalities--fine. NOT "interlacing," which makes no sense.

Second, what you're saying about me here is absurd (aside from violating your own call to remain "on topic"). I don't have to do "a search on specific keywords" about the Lao-tzu because I know the book by heart. I have to do a search when it comes to things like chromosomes because I'm not a biologist--but I do know enough to see that your explanations are incorrect. I'm sorry if you don't like to be disagreed with, but when you're wrong about a question of fact, that tends to happen.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

Just an observation on my behalf within this threard & not an outright attack on you but it would seem that you tend to do a search on specific keywords so that you have something to post rather than to actually take part in a discussion & share your own point of view. Thus you produce a plethora of theories.

I am sure you will come back with some sort of defensive post in regards to my statement & I will not engage in debates within an online virtual environment. They serve no purpose & I make all attempts to remain on topic & not digress to personal exchanges.


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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 10:47:49 AM   
SweetDommes


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Status: offline 		LAM - you are still attributing to me an agreement that I did not make. I was attempting to clarify some things that do happen because you specifically asked for someone with more knowledge on this to try and explain. As you obviously are unwilling to accept my knowledge as valid - whether it's due to my age, my gender, or the fact that you still seem to think that I agree with the "interlaced" phrasing (which I have repeatedly said that I DON'T).

For the record, sometimes the explination that I gave (which involves matches pairs of chromosomes) does happen - to all chromosomes. The 14/21 chromosome exchange happens when the chromosomes don't line up properly before the exchange happens, but the exchange happens with all chromosomes at times, lined up properly or not. Most of the times that it happens improperly are fatal, which is why there aren't names for the abnormalities caused when the chromosomes don't exchange equally or exchange with the wrong chromosome. Down's syndrome happens to be one of the ones that isn't fatal (obviously) and so it becomes an easy example.

And now, I am done discussing with you, LAM, because you, for whatever reason, are convinced that my information (which I only offered because you asked for it) is invalid/incorrect. To others, I will continue to discuss my knowledge should you be interested.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 12:57:47 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Well, aside from the fact that it's obvious you're not a biologist either, I already said why I don't think you've explained what's going on. You're talking about situations in which material from ONE chromosome is added to material from ANOTHER (for example, the 14th and 21st). But X and Y belong to the SAME chromosome--the 23rd. If you know (or if anyone else knows) for a fact that the X and Y chromosomes can be exchanged WITH EACH OTHER, I'd be very grateful for information about it. But you haven't given any examples of this; instead, you've gotten irritated because I'm not accepting you as an authority. (Your age and sex have nothing to do with it.)

Edited to add: Unless you are the same person as MstrssPassion, I also don't understand why you think I am attributing the comment about "interlacing" to you. MstrssPassion said it, not you.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/14/2005 1:01:31 PM >

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 3:59:19 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		this is all about one misused word when I refered to my thesaurus???

Several words were suggested & I popped in 'interlaced'... my bad but that one word does not discount any of the other information provided.

I do appologize for any confusion that this may have caused, but I really do not see how one word changed the meaning of the rest of the post.

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RE: Hermaphrodites - 6/14/2005 7:11:56 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm glad you concede that your choice of words was not the greatest. But I really don't know what you meant besides what you said. (In fact, I still don't.)

Edited to add: I realized I never mentioned that the most common cause of intersex is not any of the chromosome defects that other people have mentioned (some of them don't even cause intersex of any kind), but a phenomenon called mosaicism, which is when the same person has cells with XX and cells with XY chromosomes in the same body--sometimes even in the same tissues.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/24/2005 3:16:32 PM >

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