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RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 2:59:20 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

fargle, if you don't equate "the people" as espoused in the constitution to mean U.S. citizens, where do you think, "We, The People of the United States......." in the preamble came from? That says it all, I think. And now I'm gonna stop beating my head against the wall, because it will feel so good when I stop.
*** edited for clarity***



The People of the united States CREATED and DELEGATED Authority to the Federal Government.

That says it all FOR THE PREAMBLE, where it is used, but is irrelevant to the 4th Amendment.

Why use CITIZEN and "ANY PERSON" in differing parts of the 14th Amendment, if "ANY PERSON" wasn't explicitly meant?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to mrbob726)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:04:26 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

That's because your point is pointless.

I've already told you, if they meant "CITIZEN" they would have written "CITIZEN" so your grasping about trying to read into the clear text is pointless.

And how exactly do you determine if a particular person is part of "the people" , rather than a citizen?

How about this? NON-CITIZENS are superior to the Federal Government, too. THEY are part of "The People".


Going by your logic, than a non-citizen should have the right to vote in the United States as well. The Constitution as written in 1787 never defined who a citizen was. That distinction came with the 14th amendement. As I pointed out, the use of the article "The" is deliberate. It indicates a specific body of people.


You are incorrect. It indicates THE GENERAL BODY OF PEOPLE.

If they wanted to limit it to Citizens, they would have specified Citizens.

Who are you to say that they didn't write down EXACTLY what they meant?

quote:


The Constitution does give power and authority to the government by consent of The People to enforce laws made by Congress, which is also empowered by The People to make laws. The Supreme Court decides if those laws fall within the restraints of the Constitution, and the Supreme Court derives that power from The People. The Congress has passed laws concerning travel, which the Supreme Court has upheld, and the Executive branch enforces those laws.


The laws are Unconstitutional. If you're counting on the very same supreme court who said blacks WOULD NEVER be as good as a White Man, ( Dred Scott ) , then I guess you get what you deserve.

ANYONE who says the Constitution "Needs Interpretation" has their own agenda, and you would be well advised to discover what their agenda is, before trusting them, and their "interpretation".




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:04:29 PM   
gentldom4sub


Posts: 36
Joined: 6/14/2007
Status: offline 		I don't even know what is your problem .. it is for ppl from other counties and not us .. your prints as US citizen are all over your goverment anyway... i'm German and live since 10 years here in US my prints are taken more then 10 times .. so what .. I got nothing to hide .. do you??? Or are you scared if you go to other countries the may take your Prints .. again .. so what..

PS .. Don't even ask i got a greencard ... hehehe


(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:05:52 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Here's another issue:

They are *MY* fingerprints, and unless you pay a licensing fee, you are violating my EXCLUSIVE COPYRIGHT on the prints, and any electronic or physical representation.

You can't just lawfully make copies of protected Compact Discs, can you? Nope.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/25/2007 3:06:57 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to gentldom4sub)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:21:36 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Fingerprints and other exemplars have already been run through the mill legally, and in the only opinion that is enforceable ( i.e. the court's, not Fargle's) collecting them is neither search nor seizure, and copyright law does not apply... nice flights of fancy tho..

Be sure and explain to us how you aren't really here FB... 

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:21:58 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

You are incorrect. It indicates THE GENERAL BODY OF PEOPLE.

If they wanted to limit it to Citizens, they would have specified Citizens.

Who are you to say that they didn't write down EXACTLY what they meant?


I am someone who understands the English language.  If a definitive article is used in front of a noun, than that is not a GENERALIZATION.  There is no need to use "the" in front of a noun, if you are generalizing.  The founding fathers understood the English language.  If they meant the "general body of people" they would not have used a definitive article in front of the word people.  Who are you to say that they made a mistake in using the definitive article "the" in front of the word people?

quote:

The laws are Unconstitutional. If you're counting on the very same supreme court who said blacks WOULD NEVER be as good as a White Man, ( Dred Scott ) , then I guess you get what you deserve.

ANYONE who says the Constitution "Needs Interpretation" has their own agenda, and you would be well advised to discover what their agenda is, before trusting them, and their "interpretation".


I didn't say the Constitution "needs interpretation."  The founding fathers decided that a independent judicial branch was needed to solve arguments of constitutionality.  The Dred Scott decision was invalidated by the 14th amendment to the Constitution.  You defend the Constitution while at the same time attacking the Supreme Court, which was created by the Constitution.  If the founding fathers never intended for the Constitution to change of be subject to future interpretation; they never would have created a Supreme Court, or allowed for a process to make amendments to the original document.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 6/25/2007 3:40:19 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:23:13 PM   
Caius


Posts: 175
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		There seems to be some confusion between human/natural rights and civil rights here, but its largely an academic point.  Regardless of the semantics of "the people," the U.S. has agreed to many international accords with regard to natural rights, more than a few of which might be relvant to this situation.  And, as we're qouting the constitution, I'm sure we're all aware that it is quite explicit that treaties are to be regarded as the "supreme law of the land."  Strong wording, but then of course, no more than that -- words.   Heads of  U.S. policy --including the much-touted founders being presented as the very incrnation of the light of reason here-- have been rejecting fundemental principles of treaties from the begening, culminating in the current abysmal state of affairs where most nations don't view them as possesing much practical value beyond the potential use of the forms they are written on as toilet paper.   

But the larger point is moot as well.  Do you really think these techniques are going to be long-restricted to foreign visitors.   I've never felt more comfortable in my life assuring anyone of anyhting than I do when I say they won't.   I'll be suprised if two years pass before similar policy instates such technology for Americans applying for passports and visas. 

For me though, the most striking part of this story, what really makes this a diseased sausage of a piece of policy, is not the fact that this could very well be yet another step on apth towards become the most horrific police state ever -- this is true, but I see such signs so frequently these days, the majority of which make this program look fairly tame.  Nor is it the aggravation of knowing the Eu will, as it has in past, respond by requiring the same conditions of American traellers entering its borders.  Rather, its the balatant pork of the thing.  Biometrics at this point are neither particularly secure nor efficient,  regardless of the hype generated by the firms producing them.  This has nothing to do with security and everyhting to do with a nice fat hi-tech subsidy of the type which is daily business for the U.S. government.   This is a perfect example of what is called "welfare for the rich," one of the primary methods by which wealth is consolidated into fewer and fewer hands in the U.S.  while the same people who most benefit from it urge their hand-picked political mouth-pieces to scream and carrying on over the "nanny state" and the pathetic pittance of resources that are fed towards social programs in this country. 

That is to say, if you haven't enough sense to fear what such technologies might mean for the freedoms of citizens in any country, at least have the clarity to realize you are getting ass-fucked fiscally in the American context.

< Message edited by Caius -- 6/25/2007 3:24:25 PM >

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 3:40:29 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

You are incorrect. It indicates THE GENERAL BODY OF PEOPLE.

If they wanted to limit it to Citizens, they would have specified Citizens.

Who are you to say that they didn't write down EXACTLY what they meant?


I am someone that understands the English language. If you use a definitive article in front of a noun, than that is not a GENERALIZATION. There is no need to use "the" in front of a noun, if you are generalizing. The founding fathers understood the English language. If they meant the "general body of people" they would not have used a definitive article in front of the word people. Who are you to say that they made a mistake in using the definitive article "the" in front of the word people?


Should they have said, "The Sovereign" instead?
quote:



quote:

The laws are Unconstitutional. If you're counting on the very same supreme court who said blacks WOULD NEVER be as good as a White Man, ( Dred Scott ) , then I guess you get what you deserve.

ANYONE who says the Constitution "Needs Interpretation" has their own agenda, and you would be well advised to discover what their agenda is, before trusting them, and their "interpretation".


I didn't say the Constitution "needs interpretation." The founding fathers decided that a independent judicial branch was needed to solve arguments of constitutionality. The Dred Scott decision was invalidated by the 14th amendment to the Constitution. You defend the Constitution while at the same time attacking the Supreme Court, which was created by the Constitution. If the founding fathers never intended for the Constitution to change of be subject to future interpretation; they never would have created a Supreme Court, or allowed for a process to make amendments to the original document.


Actually, I'm of the considered opinion that the Constitution failed catastrophically on 4 July 1861.

BUT, since it's what's supposed to be used to delineate Federal Authority, I'll use it as such.

I would suggest that they created a Supreme Court to be the "Supreme Court of Law and Equity", and never for a second considered that the Constitution was so complex that it needed to be Interpreted. Someone who needed help reading it, is by definition "Illiterate".

Wanna change the Constitution from what it EXPLICITLY says? Amend it. Otherwise, it says EXACTLY what it means.





< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/25/2007 3:42:56 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 4:03:42 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Caius, when I go to Ireland I'm under Irish Law, the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect me there.
And if the E.U. wants my fingerprints they can have them if it's a requirement for entrance.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Caius)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 4:58:53 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I keep having this terrible vision of airport security including routine body cavity searches
and peeing in a cup on front of the same TSA agent that just violated your bodily orofices
followed by the contents of the cup being tested for bio-terrorism organisms.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 6:13:23 PM   
Caius


Posts: 175
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Caius, when I go to Ireland I'm under Irish Law, the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect me there.



Indeed, but I don't see where this conflicts with anything I said. Of course, you would be subject to domestic Irish law.   That doesn't mean international law doesn't apply.  There or in the States. 

But now that you've raised the subject,  using a country like Ireland, part of a powerful coalition (the EU) as an example of how sovreignty is respected these days is hardly compellign evidence.  I guaruntee you, there are many countries in whic your status as an American would entitle you to far greater rights and protections than the locals enjoy.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 6:46:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Caius, when I go to Ireland I'm under Irish Law, the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect me there.



Indeed, but I don't see where this conflicts with anything I said. Of course, you would be subject to domestic Irish law.   That doesn't mean international law doesn't apply.  There or in the States. 

But now that you've raised the subject,  using a country like Ireland, part of a powerful coalition (the EU) as an example of how sovreignty is respected these days is hardly compellign evidence.  I guaruntee you, there are many countries in whic your status as an American would entitle you to far greater rights and protections than the locals enjoy.




Oh? Which? Is there one where I would have to entertain the entire Swedish Bikini Team for a week?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Caius)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 6:49:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Wanna change the Constitution from what it EXPLICITLY says? Amend it. Otherwise, it says EXACTLY what it means.







and that is precisely what modern thinkers do not understand.  they always try to slice it.  There are ways to accomplish most anything that does not violate our rights but they always prefer to slice away


i have to laugh at the fingerprint thing, technically you are correct, and i am betting it went through court on some "narrow" definition like all our other rights are being sliced away


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 7:11:40 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Caius, when I go to Ireland I'm under Irish Law, the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect me there.


It protects you from a CIA agent summarily executing you on the street. The CIA Agent is prevented from exceeding the authority delegated by The People. You Get Due Process FROM THE US GOV'T Wherever That Gov't Is ( Look for the flag... )

Get It Yet?? It CONSTRAINS THE ACTIONS OF THE US GOVERNMENT, Nothing Else.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 7:14:05 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Wanna change the Constitution from what it EXPLICITLY says? Amend it. Otherwise, it says EXACTLY what it means.







and that is precisely what modern thinkers do not understand. they always try to slice it. There are ways to accomplish most anything that does not violate our rights but they always prefer to slice away


i have to laugh at the fingerprint thing, technically you are correct, and i am betting it went through court on some "narrow" definition like all our other rights are being sliced away



A Junkie can justify *ANY* action to support their addiction.

You all are grown ups, you've dealt with Junkies.

Never trust a Junkie.

The US Government is addicted to the Power it's taken over the years.

Never trust a Junkie.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 7:21:15 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I'm afraid, folks, that Fargle is right. The U.S. Constitution delimits the power of the Federal Gvt

_____________________________

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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 7:23:45 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Caius, when I go to Ireland I'm under Irish Law, the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect me there.


It protects you from a CIA agent summarily executing you on the street. The CIA Agent is prevented from exceeding the authority delegated by The People. You Get Due Process FROM THE US GOV'T Wherever That Gov't Is ( Look for the flag... )

Get It Yet?? It CONSTRAINS THE ACTIONS OF THE US GOVERNMENT, Nothing Else.




Yeah, that's one of my biggest worries, getting whacked by a CIA agent when I'm in Ireland.
("Now, could it be that guy sitting at the end of the bar or the colleen with the red hair?")

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 10:41:15 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I'm already fed up of being treated like a criminal when I go to the states, I think with this I'll just give it a miss from now on, it's just not worth it.

I just hope the EU treat Americans like criminals in return.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 10:43:12 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

I guaruntee you, there are many countries in whic your status as an American would entitle you to far greater rights and protections than the locals enjoy.




There are also many countries I wouldn't go near if I had an American passport.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Caius)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: US to fingerprint EU visitors - 6/25/2007 11:25:59 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		A Dublin cab driver told me the story of traveling to Florida with his wife and kids to see Disney World.  When asked by the security agent why they were entering the US he replied, "What does it look like?  We're here to see Mickey Mouse!"

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 40
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