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Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 1:17:53 PM)
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I'll chime in when I'm done reading the thread, but I'll start with a reply to the OP before I do that.
I have some experience with this, as my nephandi is an aspie (as many Asperger's refer to themselves in their online communities), and I have friends and acquaintances that are, as well. I studied it a lot some time ago, and will point out that there is a major split between the aspie-centric material and the caregiver-centric material out there, with the professional community and services unfortunately being focused on the latter.
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ORIGINAL: Calandra
If I explain it correctly, Aspergers is a form of high functioning autism that can be undiagnosed even into adulthood.
Asperger's is distinct from autism. There are highly functioning and poorly functioning individuals in both groups, and the view that it is a form of highly functioning autism is a minority opinion in the professional community, as far as I know. This minority view can be confusing, as it increases the incidence of people being diagnosed as one thing when they should be diagnosed as the other, leaving laypeople with the impression that the groups are the same.
One of the most prominent differences is with regards to language.
Many autistics do not develop language at all, and even the highly functioning ones will usually have delays in this regard: they do not develop language at the same pace as their peers. Note that I say "language", not "communication", as aspies generally also have some difficulties in communicating.
When one is familiar with their idiosyncracies, the "low functioning" ones are pretty hard not to spot, IME.
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As it happens, one of My slaves shows the signs of having it and I am having a difficult time finding out much information about it.
How much information do you want?
I probably have enough sources that I can't read through them all in the next ten years. [:D]
And, if this hasn't already been asked on the thread, could you be a bit more specific about "the signs" in question? There are several other conditions that may mimic high functioning ASD, apart from the other ASD themselves: autism spectrum disorders: autism, Asperger's, Rett's, childhood disintegrative disorder, and NOS ("we haven't a clue, but it fits somewhere in this general area and we need a label for the charts").
Am I right in assuming this person is highly functioning enough that it has gone undiagnosed so far?
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It appears that this disorder has been studied and recognized in children, with successful behavior modification strategies, but I haven't found much information to help adult sufferers to cope.
You should add more salt to a notion of "successful [...] strategies" than to any three CollarMe posts.
Particularly if you consider coping to be a requirement for "successful" to apply.
There are some programmes whose general idea works fairly well for almost any child (involving, after all, more effort than parents usually need to put into raising their children), and those tend to work well for some aspies as well. I seem to recall Son-Rise fits the bill, or at least did so when I first read about it; these things tend to devolve from child-centric to parent-centric over time.
The goal, IMO, should always be to impart coping skills, as well as teaching them things they need to have explained that others pick up by mere exposure (e.g. social conventions), without damaging them by triggering the strong stress- and anxiety-responses that they are prone to from social friction and so forth. Programs that aim to do this include RDI, Son-Rise, and various others.
In my very strong opinon, the most popular variant- ABA (Applied Behavioural Analysis)- should be avoided, as it has not been comparatively tested (i.e. it has been tested and found to improve the things it was intended to improve, but there have been no studies comparing it to other approaches, no blinded or placebo-controlled studies, and generally no medical evidence of efficacy), and has been accused of being unethical, primarily by aspies and autistics. There have been documented cases where it has caused post-traumatic stress disorder, for instance, usually tied to the strong negative reinforcement component. Some have pointed out that a "normal" child treated that way would be taken away from its parents by the social services.
Teaching an adult to cope with it is easier than to teach a child to do so, at least in my experience.
Part of the reason for this is that it is easier to reduce social friction with other adults.
Essentially, as children, their peers are children, with the limitations that entails.
As adults, their peers are adults, and talking, reasoning, etc. works better.
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Of course it goes without saying that there aren't any resources for those in the D/s lifestyle who face this challenge.
Not that I'm aware of, no.
There are resources for lifestylers where both parties are aspies, but not where one is not.
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Is anyone on CollarMe familiar with this syndrome?
Yes. And I'm sure there are quite a few in the community in general.
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If so, what can I expect with this disorder?
What can one expect with a "normal" person?
Really, there is more individual variation than can be easily explained, as much as with "neurotypicals" (aspie term for non-aspies). From what you said, it seems you have some experience with this person already, and on a live-in basis. In that regard, you already know much of what to expect.
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What coping techniques have worked for you and your loved ones?
I've sent you a PM about this; I'd rather not get private on the public side of the board.
You still need to be more specific, though.
Coping implies a specific problem, and there may be several.
How one copes with disorganized surroundings is different from how one copes with people.
What problems would you like to know how to cope with?
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I want to be fair and balanced as a Mistress, and I don't want to attribute My slave's behavior to "attitude" when it might be Aspergers. I also don't want to give him a "free walk" and allow the discipline of My entire household to fall apart just to cater to his disorder.
Unless he has exceptional self-discipline, the distinction will often be apparent.
Push the wrong buttons too hard, and an aspie loses it, yielding panic, retreat, or even animal rage.
And the warning signs that things are headed that way are as hard to miss as for a neurotypical.
Basically, an aspie can have an attitude, just like anyone else.
But an aspie also has very different buttons from others, sometimes.
There may be things that a non-aspie would completely panic at that the aspie does not.
Conversely, there may be things that seem trivial for you to ask that are, by no choice of the aspie himself, as if asking a non-aspie to kill a loved one, hold their hand on a burning stove, or whatever.
The key, as always, is communication.
Most aspies are very direct and forthright, and many are outright guileless.
Aspie communication is almost universally content-centric, not response-centric.
In fact, most aspies I have talked to consider response-centric communication to be manipulation, which is a bit of a problem, as "regular" people use the response-centric mode as their primary means of communication. Most understand (at least if told / taught) that there is no malicious intent in this, and many understand that it is neither intended as- nor seen as- manipulation.
My best advice, apart from the bits I centered above (attention-catcher, sorry, that bit is just the most important bit for those who aren't familiar with it), is to stop second-guessing and start communicating directly. That's very hard for most people, I know. Perhaps one can try to think of it as reclaiming something, as the reason it is hard is that we are taught not to do it from an early age; it is almost taboo, like BDSM itself.
A question is just a question to most aspies who haven't been taught differently, whether by very special parents, or by bitter life experiences. And the rest generally find it easy to revert to this way of seeing things with a person they trust. A question doesn't have layers of hidden meaning. It is an inquiry, an attempt to discern what was asked.
Of course, if what was asked is presumed abundantly clear, that may be hurtful to an aspie as well (the "how can you even ask that" response), but if you think about it, those questions are either due to a misunderstanding (those are easily cleared up), or due to there actually being something to be hurt about. In the latter case, ameliorating the problem is better than "dressing up" the question: one is a cure, the other is a band-aid.
Similarly, an answer, to most, is just an answer to what was asked, devoid of any attempt to get a specific response. This means there may be a lot less "window dressing" than one is used to, and that the answer can be painfully blunt sometimes. That isn't attitude; it's just saying what you mean to say (content-centric), rather than saying what will get the desired response without doing something socially unacceptable like lying (response-centric).
Let's take the time-honored cliché of "does this dress make me look fat?".
From what women have told me so far, it appears that the usual intent here is to obtain reassurance.
A non-aspie woman will, apparently, generally be sensitive to this intent, and try to reassure.
A non-aspie man will, IME, generally try to answer the question, but be diplomatic about it.
An aspie will generally answer the question, period.
Let's compare some hypothetical answers where the dress actually isn't all that flattering.
I suck at writing dialogue, so please forgive and look past that.
"No, not at all, you look gorgeous. It fits you perfectly. So-and-so will be green with envy."
That gives what the person asking wanted, but doesn't answer the question truthfully in our scenario.
In short, it's the perfect answer, and very good response-centric communication.
It is also, from the content-centric view, a manipulative lie.
"No, it looks great on you, hon. But it'd look even better with that shawl you bought last week."
That gives some of what was wanted, but is still less than entirely truthful by avoiding a direct answer.
It is accompanied with a suggestion that would improve things, making them truthful if it is done.
In this case, we will say a shawl would draw attention such that the dress is more flattering.
Either way, it may be a workable compromise, depending on the gender you ask about it.
It is not necessarily "good" communication in either mode, however.
"No, will you stop worrying about it? You look fine."
More typical, perhaps, of the hubby being asked, at least if there isn't a whip around. [:D]
No suggested improvement, a quick lie, an admonition, and then some reassurance.
Still a compromise, and not "good" communication in either mode.
"Yes, the dress directs attention at some places that seem a bit chubby with that cut."
Now we are more into content-centric communication, answering the question quite truthfully.
Here, there's also an explanation of what the problem is, though no suggested improvement.
A more useful approach would be to follow-up with the suggestion about the shawl.
This entirely answers the content of the question, however.
But it does not address the intent at all.
"Yes."
This is where the typical aspie is at, unless they have studied (or been taught) "regular" talking.
It is a short, concise and truthful answer, and an excellent attempt at answering well.
In the content-centric model, it fits at least one good definition of "perfect".
However, it completely misses the point, and hurts the person asking.
There is no response-centric communication here.
For a person who is used to the response-centric model, which means most of us, this is bad.
Especially when the person asking can't conceive of answering that way for any other reason.
It may appear to them that the answer was intended to hurt, for some reason they don't get.
At this point, they may backlash at the person who answered in such a way, hurting back.
In the context of D/s, they may punish the person for what they think was uncalled for.
To the typical aspie, this will make no sense, as they did their best to answer.
The solution in this scenario, is to either (a) not ask, or (b) teach one, or both, parties to communicate in a way that serves as a middle ground. The person asking can put their intention in plainer words, perhaps even explaining it, or (in a D/s context) order the desired response. These approaches can apparently make the answer feel less satisfying, however. One can also teach the aspie to gauge what kind of response is desired, but this can take some time to "fine-tune".
Remember that an aspie usually sees the world very directly; that includes unpleasant truth. In this regard, since they lack the bits that tell the rest of us which lies and manipulations are unacceptable (to the aspie, the answer is "all of them", usually), which ones are acceptable, and which ones are required, it can take a lot of patience to teach them what illusions and façades must be maintained to avoid social friction.
The concept that these things are required sometimes confounds many aspies to no end, as they are taught (as the rest of us are) that lying and manipulation is bad and then required to lie and manipulate. Suddenly, it is bad not to be bad. The missing piece to the puzzle, is that there is a communication detail they haven't picked up on: the instruction is response-centric as well. Parents aren't communicating that objective lying and manipulation is bad, but rather that subjective lying and manipulation (that which is not inherent in the response-centric model) is bad, and this cannot be discerned from looking only at what is said, which is what an aspie will do at that age.
Personally, I just embrace reality as-is, no warranties, no returns, no refunds.
My nephandi has been taught a lot about these things growing up, but I prefer that she tells me when I fuck up, when I look crap, and when my singing belongs on some obscure wildlife documentary footage rather than in the living room. Obviously, that hurts a bit every now and then, but that's a brief thing. The feedback that allows me to improve myself is a lasting thing, and priceless, as it cannot generally be had from any "normal" person unless one is blatantly out of line. If I'm in a hurry getting dressed, and miss a button or whatever, I can walk by hundreds of people that day, and none will tell me, though many will notice, and some will judge on the basis of that thing I don't know about. By contrast, she will tell me straight away, and I redo the buttons, and the person I'm telling to bet his company on me will not be thinking about the missed button on my shirt, but rather what I'm saying.
Sometimes, there are things I can't fix, or won't fix. Sometimes I still want to. Sometimes that hurts. That's just life. We're not always perfect, and for a perfectionist like me, that grates. But I'd rather know than not know. That's why I try to fix me, not "fix" the aspies.
That doesn't work for everyone, though.
Otherwise, it's possible to teach an aspie much more than what most professionals think.
I won't go into a long debate on the professional views, though. They're right in some areas, wrong in some areas, and entirely in a different ball-court in most areas. There is extensive confirmation bias in much of the work that is being done, and a lot of money going around. In the face of teary-eyed parents pointing at kids that don't play with the other kids, it doesn't hold much weight when the same kids, years later, go out and get organized. Groups like "Cure Autism Now" regularly win out over others like "Not Dead Yet", "Autistic People Against Neuroleptic Abuse", "Aspies For Freedom", and so forth.
For a view of the flip side of the coin, one might read some of the writings by these:
- Temple Grandin, Ph.D. (Autism); involved in the autism rights movement and animal welfare (particularly livestock).
- Kassiane Sibley (Rett's, epilepsy, dyspraxia, hypotonia); pen name "Rett Devil"; national public speaker, author, blogger and activist in the autism rights movement, accomplished gymnast, and author of "Help Me Help Myself: Teaching and Learning Self-Advocacy".
- Michelle Dawson (Autism); researches autism, participates in autism rights activism, and has written significant works that challenge the scientific and ethical basis for ABA therapy, as well as legally challenging ABA in the Supreme Court of Canada (ironically, one of the allegations of the other party is that autists cannot communicate; Mrs. Dawson's extensive legal documents would seem rather impossible if that were the case...)
Snake-oil is the mainstay of "treatment", and most call it the "gold standard".
This is less so for those who are already adults, but the problem remains. I have more than a fair bit of experience in treating some of the comorbid disorders (those that usually occur alongside ASD), and would point out that the most successful treatments have been those that are antithetical to the current "best practice" in the field.
I expect this is getting too long for most readers already, so I'll pause there, and try to think about a good way to explain things while reading the rest of the thread.
Hope some of this will be useful to you.
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