RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome

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toadMystC -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 5:18:21 PM)
Hello all, i'd like to start off by saying " thank you " to everyone that's posted on this topic. It's been a real feeling of relief to know that there are some helpful explinations that " fit " certain things that have been going on in my own personal life with my Mystress, and now that we both have been reading, we are understanding more and in greater detail of exactly how i am interpreting things, my own level of AS, and we are getting excellent ideas on how to handle situations that have come up, so that certain things can be laid out for me to follow. It would appear that i'm not as affected by AS, but there are some areas of my life that are heavily affected, such as money handling, and conflicts with NT's, to name a couple. There are times, even now, that i have difficulty fully understanding NT humor and/or sarcasm, and i have noticed that when a situation comes up with some humorous undertones, i will often follow what's being said literally, instead of just laughing along like everyone else does. i have also noticed that there seem to be times when it does appear that i have more " issues " with AS and then there are times that i notice i have less " issues ", and there is no pattern that i have noticed for the difference, which brings me to a question i would like to ask : " does anyone else have periods of time that their AS seems to be less and/or more affecting their lives " ? i know that i show emotions, i've been told that i wear them on my face and i know that i do love on some varying levels, depending on the person in question. i consent to belonging to my Mystress, and in this house, but i am noticing that explaining some feelings on either hypotheticals, or on the spot questions often take me a varying amount of time to answer, mainly because i want and prefer to give accurate answers, but i have no real tools to explain how i feel inside to others in ways i feel they would understand. i guess that's all i have for now, as a example of gathering information to post here, it's taken me 3 days to sort and word this much of a reply. Again, thank you to everyone for taking the time to help both Mystress and i. toad[MystC] House of Phoenix Athens, Ga

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 5:25:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHeart The things that will most affect D/s are [...] These behaviours can be managed, but not changed. Wow, that matched very well with how I've seen some aspies describe "regular" people. It also did not match a lot of the aspies I know; it seems closer to ADD, actually. Particularly the one about not learning from mistakes. I'm not trying to be negative or anything, but if she isn't learning from mistakes, then either you are not explaining the mistakes properly to her, or there is something else causing it. There is no inherent deficit in understanding causuality associated with Asperger's, though there are perception deficits that can make it seem like that is the case, which is why parents of aspies need to explain certain things that other kids pick up on their own. quote: It's like living with a child that will never fully grow up, [...] This probably sounds very negative, but I'm trying to be factual. I'm not sure "negative" is the word I was browsing my vocabulary for... Neither is factual, unless this is a pretty severe case. You said that your daughter has it to a lesser degree than her father. At the same time, you also indicate that you lived with him for 20 years, and had kids. These things don't align very well in my head, even without considering what I know about AS. quote: Please understand it's not coming from a place of bitterness - you can't blame someone for something they can't help. It may not be coming from a place of bitterness, but the latter half of the phrase has an odd flavor. Your post seems a bit like you are rather unhappy about how they are, at the very least. That tends to result in bitterness for one or more of the members of a family. I hope I misread your post, in which case I apologize. quote: You can't fix it. Why would one want to? I mean, sure, science will eventually get to the point where a "reference" brain can be developed, and we can start modifying foetuses so that everyone is born with the same brain wiring, but do we want to? That is the idea at the core of the neurodiversity movement: diversity is a good thing. Skipping the evolutionary angle, many people do not subscribe to a notion of "normal". At least not a notion of "normal" as a gold standard for who a person should "ideally" be. That aside, who decides? Not just which version is the reference, the aspie or the NT, but also which individuals should be changed? There is a large body of aspies out there who are pretty much waiting for what they see as a genocide, when parents can opt not to have aspie children, or when it can be "fixed"; the pro-cure groups (yes, the term was coined prior to X:LS, though that movie could very well be viewed as an analogy). There are also many aspies who are deeply unhappy about the situation where the children are treated for the parents' illness (whether that is stress-related, or whatever), which is the current gold standard of treatment. Risperdal, for instance, is a very "good" choice when the child is "acting out", such as when the child is so freaked that it just can't cope anymore; an antipsychotic will indeed numb such a child, and both parents and teachers will be a lot less disturbed by their suffering. Medicare is starting to cover it, too. Long term studies should be in soon, in about ten to thirty years. As a side note, the risperdal trials was one of the first studies that showed a 0% placebo response rate in aspies, as opposed to NTs. Most aspies do have mental disorders, many of which are characteristic of prolonged trauma. These, I don't think anyone (more or less) objects to fixing; most would love to be rid of them. I myself have spent a fair bit of time researching just how to do that for them. So far, nephandi is the only one I'm having difficulty with. GAD, PAD, SAD, OCD, SID, and MDD seem to have been figured out, the rest eludes me. But "fixing" AS itself makes no sense. That would be like "fixing" 6+ billion humans to be regular apes: a small change that makes a big difference. It entails losing who you are, which equates to killing one person and sticking another in the same body, pretty much. If one views it more kindly, it could be equated to severe brainwashing. The Soviets tried it on regular people who were under the delusion that communism wasn't perfect, and the results are fairly comparable to what we see with attempts to "treat" aspies: low success rates, very individual results, high incidence of anxiety disorders, moderate incidence of PTSD, etc. She never said she wanted to "fix" it, IIRC, but rather that she wanted to help him. Sorry if this sounds a bit touchy; I tried to avoid that, but your post just sounded exactly like another parent of an aspie that I know, and that made it a bit hard to avoid. I hope, and will try to assume, that your views are nothing like hers.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 5:35:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHeart People with Aspergers syndrome are most often male, and quite often very intelligent, but they are more usually Dominant than submissive. Diagnosed males outnumber females significantly, with an abundance of theories to explain it. Until an etiology is established, however, any actual prevalence numbers are unavailable. Intelligence is not particularly covariant; effort is, some confuse the two. What sources do you base the assertion that aspies are more often dominant, relative to NTs of same gender, on? It's been a while since I looked into the balance in that regard, but I vaguely seem to remember it was the other way around, though I may very well be wrong. If so, I'd like to fix my data, for which a source would be useful. The one thing I do remember, is that there appears to be more switches around, including lifestyle switches (i.e. those that can pick one and stay with it, but can pick either one in the first place).

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 5:59:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ayanaev717 I worked with an adolescent who had Aspergers although the age difference and development is quite different the symptoms are pretty much the same. Some are the same, others definitely not. quote: Aspergers IS a higher functioning individual who basically has autism. No. Kanner and Asperger described two different syndromes, though there was some similarity. It's at least as different as diabetes-1 vs diabetes-2, though to a random stranger, one is just "diabetic". quote: The youth I worked with would often speak very fast, burst into tears without any reason, and express extreme anger until she punched walls. This is a personal issue, or a life situation issue. Either you were stressing her, or she was stressed out. Regardless, this is breakdown behaviour, not baseline behaviour. Which is to say that if it was normal, then breakdown was her normal mode. I tend to assume having breakdown as a normal mode is indicative that something is mismanaged. quote: They also like routine. Everything to be the same. The same method of treatment, the same room, the same colors. If they change it, then they change it, but don't you change it. This kind of overgeneralizing is outright dangerous. I know several aspies that would just wither and die with that advice. Along with the rest, it sounds a lot like what a social worker or support worker might be taught. We've had to drop a lot of help because of such notions, and systems built around them. quote: If you have a submissive showing signs of Aspergers you need to get them into treatment. Right, I'll go rush over to some I know, and haul them off for treatment. After all, they've been going for decades, it's only a matter of time, now... Sorry, that was a bit sharp, but there's no rush, and treatment is not always needed. I'll drop elaborating the point about treatment often being counterproductive. quote: I would not train or continue any further play until this was done. Even if your sub is not Aspergers it is better to be safe than sorry. Where does this follow? You say aspies can't deal with the slightest bit of change. I say some can't, and the rest deal very poorly with unexpected change. How does either view support the notion that radically turning their lives upside down will be productive, or even in line with the "better safe than sorry" principle? Going from voluntary slavery back to vanilla in preparation for "treatment" is not exactly going to bode well for the efficacy of treatment, either. If it works, don't "fix" it, as the saying goes. Here, better would be: if it works, don't break it to see if it needs fixing...

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 6:13:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bladedom A very high percentage of softare developers suffer from the syndrome, or it could be stated that software development is one career that is suited to such folks. No, the percentage is not very high. The percentage of Internet-hypochondria and I-want-to-be-special-with-this-cool-syndrome is. Oddly, those two don't carry the same problems as "aspiedom" does. As one diagnosed aspie put it, "if I hear any more talk from these tech geeks about how cool it is to be an aspie, I'll scream". It's a kind of clique-thing. Some brilliant techies have it, most don't. The aspies usually have great difficulty relating to NTs; I love their company. The iAspies universally suck at relating to anyone, and I shun theirs. Indeed there is a somewhat higher prevalence, but that goes for all engineering fields and math. Software development is well suited to abstract thinking, planning, communication and large-scale systemic thinking. All of these are, according to the literature, highly deficient in aspies. Of course, the aspies don't necessarily agree. Some of the best software developers I know are aspies. However, those also have qualities that are more in line with ADHD. The rest of the best software developers I know are ADHD Predominantly Inattentive Type. IMO, the DSM and ICD should not have made the diagnoses mutually exclusive.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 8:06:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave Personally, i find it almost impossible to follow conversations with a lot of background noise/multiple simultaneous discussions, so keeping him on the "outskirts" of more chaotic gatherings may help. This is part of what is known as Sensory Integration Disorder. It is a fairly common comorbidity with Asperger's. My nephandi has that problem, too. I had some success in treating it pharmacologically, but that treatment is at odds with what the pdocs generally reccomend for aspies, so it may be hard to get anyone to try it. While I generally have little clue as to herbal/dietary remedies, you could try tons of green tea, DLPA, l-tyrosine, a mixed B6 preparation, and possibly also oral harmaline if you know what you're doing with it. Not likely to make a big difference, though. quote: As Najakcharmer mentioned, a difficulty with facial recognition can also be an issue,[...] Try going by the hair, that works for nephandi. Color, line, do, length and straight/curly/etc.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 8:30:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer I suspect that my personal set of wiring may be just slightly to the left of "potential serial killer". Fortunately I am much more interested in professional accomplishments than in any possible benefit of committing antisocial acts. Seems like some of the things we touched on in the insane-geniouses thread. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that morals are arbitrary. Add basic human wiring, and you're half-way there. The tricky part is finding another goal. That lends itself to ethics. Most of the brilliant people I know, whether aspie or NT, are as you describe here. quote: A more reasonable description of my condition would not be "childlike" so much as "feral, savage and not quite human behind the eyes". How are the two different? [:D] Kind of get it, though. I deconstructed what society built on top of that foundation, and rebuilt something else that actually fit the foundations. In that way, I work at what various people might call a "higher level" for the bulk of the time, but there is no seam in the joining between the foundation and the construct. Others, as well as myself, have called me "primal" or "primordial" in that sense. That's part of what attracted me to the koryu martial arts in the first place. That delicate balance, and the seamless joining into one whole being. When I am friendly, people generally love my company and thrive. When someone pulls a knife, one look palpably ends the threat. There is no disjointness between those two sides of my being. There is, however, some kind of transition in consciousness. A moment where what is superfluous to survival detaches. So far, that has been nothing but a good thing for me and mine. Again, a study in "contradictions". I put quote marks there, as I would say "juxtapositions" would be a better term. In either case, few grasp the idea that one can "revert" to that state, and also have greater empathy than most people do, all at the same time. The koryu arts have this element to them, which is part of why I love them. Something good had to come out of turning poet-philosopher-priests into warriors... quote: People have described the experience of talking to me, and sometimes of bottoming / subbing to me, as being rather like spending time with a big carnivore that somehow learned to walk and talk like a person. Hopefully, most of them also know that most big carnivores rarely eat people. [;)]

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 8:33:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHeart In my posts I have carefully avoided the words "victim" or "sufferer" as I am of nyrisa's belief that it is a condition that makes people different rather than an affliction or a "disease." Before it was labelled Aspergers it was seen as simply having a diffcult personality. Was planning on editing my original reply, but CM stopped responding, so I couldn't. The gist of it was: my bad, I misread your post.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 8:55:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer I have learned to identify that certain rote phrases are used as meaningless social noise or have a hidden emotional meaning unrelated to their actual meaning. As to meaningless noise, it is interesting to note that the exact descriptions used by many therapists in describing certain features of AS, specifically the ones about rituals and meaningless forms, align perfectly with how most aspies describe NTs, particularly their social habits. The joke about the institute for NT studies isn't all that far off, in that it's a matter of which side of the window you're on: either way, you are looking in at something you cannot touch directly; and just like we have tests for animals involving mirrors, this one serves well for people, checking to see whether they realize there is a real room on the other side of the window or not. As for things that mean something else... Again, as (I think) I have pointed out, this is a difference between communicating facts and communicating emotions. One is content-centric, the other is response-centric. In the response-centric model, pack bonding is paramount, and one avoids answers that cause stress, dissonance or other unpleasant responses in the recipient, with the truth factor enforced only by the social convention that "lying" is "wrong", for some definition of those two words. To aspies, and to many people who have spent too many hours thinking about these things (I have), these social "niceties" are unethical (by societies' professed ethical standards), and consist of deceit, manipulation and currying favor. Conformity is a factor, but pretty far down the list as far as communication models are concerned. In either case, it is everything one is taught is wrong. No wonder aspies get confused. My solution to the problem is to bring in consent. As long as the response you're trying to get is within the range where you think implicit consent is viable, then lying, manipulating and so forth is entirely okay, as long as it is within the bounds of pack bonding behaviour. This is simply because there is implicit consent for it, as well as there being a principle of universality in many ethical models that would apply. Going outside pack bonding behaviour is not what they consented to, however, so that is beyond the scope of this post. quote: I can play the neurotypical game and mimic the behavior, but I don't have a very high opinion of it. I used to feel the same, but now I'm all for "each to their own". There is a room on the other side of that glass window, and it is real. It doesn't matter which party is looking in, and which party is looking out. Guess I should not spare words for the "theory of mind" and "mindblindness" herrings.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 9:05:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Calandra I left to do some grocery shopping and returned to all these wonderful insightful posts. I left for a convention and returned to an interesting thread. Hope I'm not flooding it in catching up. quote: That breaks My heart, that he's learned to hide so much of his true "self" because he was convinced that it wasn't welcome in society. ~nod~ Note that it isn't welcome in society, as almost any aspie can tell you. What matters is that it is welcome in your life, which is what he needs to know. quote: 1.) Has anyone used journalling as a coping tool? Not really, though we both tend to keep notepads around for various things. If the goal is to avoid memory problems, writing things down usually isn't the solution. It may work as a temporary fix, but the more we rely on external tools, the more dull our edge becomes. That is a human-thing generally, not an aspie-thing specifically. quote: 2.) We discussed using a scale of say 1 to 5 in helping to prioritize the importance of certain things, so that certain commands I give him can be organized easily. Any other suggestions? Read "Getting Things Done", or perhaps have a look at what has been written about it online first. It covers ways of organizing tasks, short-term and long-term, for people in the ASD and ADHD groups. From what feedback I've heard, it is the most effective system to date, unless you want to get really complicated.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 9:26:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveish Simon Baron-Cohen wrote a brilliant book about brain differences between the sexes. I forget what it's called but it discusses Asperger's. Is that the one which treats it in terms of excessive sexual dimorphism? quote: She speaks inappropriately and repeats things very often. Repeating things, echolalia, is just an aspie version of what UMs of any kind do: play. Sing-songs, humming along, repeating words, repeating phrases or parts of them... These are all the same things, with the same purpose, and the same reasons. Unfortunately, if one plays an odd game, one's peers may be rejecting. This is the flip side to the conformity impulse: rejecting individuals. Kids are like that, and this is the source of much aspie damage. In fact, peer socializing may well do more harm than good. As to inappropriate, the definition of inappropriate depends on whether you're aspie or NT. If one wants an aspie UM to understand the NT meaning of "inappropriate", that takes a lot of time and effort, because the NT parents have usually forgotten the exact meaning of what is and isn't inappropriate, as it is tacit knowledge and taught as such. Also, most NT parents are not introverted, and most people do not learn to be highly introspective, so it's hard to recover the knowledge and reassemble it in a format that can be explained. In short, aspies generally have their own culture, with its own rules. Regarding them as aliens in that regard does not miss the target by much. quote: She doesn't understand subtlty - if it's a truth, regardless if it's a hurtful one, it gets spoken. The distinction between subtlety and deception is necessary here. Subtlety is something many aspies have a talent for, actually. This is evidenced in their often peculiar sense of humor. It is readily apparent when several are gathered. Deception is what is usually meant by NTs. No value judgment, just objective truth. Teach her that deception is okay. Then teach when it is okay. But call it what it is. quote: She says things like "You're fat" or "Those marks on your face make you look ugly." That is what many people don't get when they claim to prefer people to be honest with them. When someone is honest, they most definitely say things like this, quite often. Social rituals dictate that we deceive to be pleasant with each other. Some cultures compromise with "say something nice, or nothing". If one gets over the surprise, it can actually be quite refreshing. When an aspie complements you, they definitely mean it. When an NT does the same, you have to guess. quote: She doesn't understand why her peers shun her. This is where most conventional "therapies" fail. Instead of explaining the differences in mindset in full detail, they try to modify behaviour. Often, this is done by rote memorization, rather than giving general rules. Najakcharmer is right that aspies can follow conventions. The problem arises when there is no convention. Or when nobody knows what it is. quote: She's just doing what her brain tells her to do. We all do.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 9:35:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tatshua He also has a tendency to lick off his blood if he has a wound cos he thinks it tastes good. It does. Have you tried it? quote: But he can't seem to understand that others finds it gross and why we don't like him doing it when we're around. You might try saying something like this: "We find blood disturbing, and we find eating it even more so. We would appreciate if you do not do that around us. Is that okay?" It will probably work. On the other hand, you may also end up with some similar requests of your own, as there are probably more than a few things he finds equally gross. With a bit of understanding and explanation, however, both parties will end up being more sensitive to each other, and having a better relationship.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 9:48:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Calandra We say things like "I would like a glass of tea." rather than "Would you get me a glass of tea?" Unless he finds it offensive, the best approach is probably "Get me a glass of tea." It may take a bit of getting used to, but orders work well with most aspies. Provided they accept your authority, that is, and I assume he does. If there is a problem carrying it out, you will be told so. Depending on the nature of your relationship and the power structure, you might tell him that it is okay to complete what he is doing, or inform you of a delay, rather than doing it right away, unless you specifically say "now" or "right away".

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 9:58:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer It's been suggested that AS is the next logical step in human evolution, [...] I don't know as I'd accept that as being completely true, since AS is too closely linked to real and severe functional disabilities in many individuals. But autism does have sufficient eufunctionality and inherent advantage also linked to it that the trait has been successfully retained in the human genome. You might want to have a look at the Neanderthal Theory of Asperger, Autism and ADHD. It covers this ground, and provides a bit of sourcing, though it is somewhat outdated. The idea being that, as recently found, neanderthals existed longer than we thought. These then hybridized with homo sapiens, essentially a one-way process. (As you probably know, hybridization is very often one-way only.) This eventually led to the extinction of homo neanderthalensis. Aspies, autistics and ADHD'ers are essentially throwbacks. They occur when that part of the genome surfaces. Their drawbacks are due to hybridization. Incompatibilities in the genome, simply. My pet addition to this theory is to explain some elements of the power balance in human societies by the idea that alpha females of the homo sapiens species migrated from an increasingly patriarchal societal structure, becoming exotic females to the matriarchal homo neanderthalensis species. Hybridization follows from this, with the hybridization being such that homo sapiens can carry hybrid children, while homo neanderthalensis cannot, such that the latter dies out. Further, the net result, as the alpha/beta mechanism appears to have functioned differently in homo neanderthalensis from what I read way back when, is that the alpha trait was partially culled from the female population of homo sapiens. This is possible, as mitochondrial inheritance and hormonal influences are purely matrilineal; for instance, testosterone levels in women are determined by those in the mother, while those in men are inversely affected by the same. That can account for enough of an imbalance to firmly entrench the patriarchal structure of society to the point where it carries over into the more complicated aspects of the alpha/beta dynamic. Testosterone, after all, is more a matter of bulk and aggression.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 10:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Clearly there is a genetic component to AS and other forms of autism, but the evidence is strong that environmental factors are at least as, and probably vastly more, significant in the majority of cases. Last thing I heard, the estimate was 30% when the mother has it, slightly more when the father has it, 70% if both have it. Estimates for environmental factors vary, but few have come up that appear highly prevalent. Parents with an engineering background would seem the strongest predictor for de novo ASD. We must also distinguish between being an aspie, and being diagnosed as one. The latter is more likely to depend on environmental factors. For instance, aspies tend to have deficiencies in certain enzymes whose name I forget but whose function is to excrete certain metals from the body, such as mercury. The mercury does not cause ASD, but an ASD person will accumulate it in a way a regular person will not, which means their lifetime exposure must be as low as the max allowed single exposure for a regular person. Otherwise, it will cause brain damage, which increases the likelyhood of a diagnosis, with autism being a more likely diagnosis in that case for purely unmedical reasons. There was some research on this in Japan, in connection with thimerosal. The data was read rather oddly, though. They transitioned from a single vaccine to three seperate ones, and the prevalence increased. I may just be too unfamiliar with the vaccines in question, but it seems likely to me that going from one to three would increase the amount of thimerosal nearly three-fold, which is close to the increase in prevalence seen. There is nothing to indicate a causal relationship, however. Merely an increase in diagnosed cases. One could, of course, make a case for environmental factors before birth, including parental exposure. I have not looked into that. It is unlikely to be something happening significantly later than birth, though, as there are experimental tests that appear to detect it at a few months with accuracy comparable to a therapist's diagnostic procedures. quote: NT humans experience a massive die-off of neurons shortly after birth that seems to be tied to developing basic motor and perceptual codings in the brain. Aspies experience much less of this die-off, which contributes to their hyper-sensitivity to sensory inputs and often leads to delays in developing motor skills. Makes sense. It would also account for the slightly higher mean brain tissue weight. I suspect this might very well be the case for the majority of dopaminergic neurons, however, and not just the sensorimotor neurons. It would account for improved pattern logic, for instance, in much the same way as seen with some subtypes of ADD (there are at least five distinct subtypes, going by metabolism). Both sensory integration disorder symptoms, coordination issues, hypersensitivity, and various other things improved for nephandi with the use of l-deprenyl (a.k.a. selegiline), even at the 10mg/dy starting dose. The primary effect of this is to raise levels of dopamine and PEA by inhibiting the MAO-B enzyme. It will also, to a lesser extent, inhibit DAO and dopamine-β-hydroxylase. One of the metabolites, l-methyl-alpha-methyl-phenethylamine (yes, I know what the shorthand is, but people have knee-jerk reactions to that which are not called for), is highly lipophilic, and has the effect of reversing the reuptake pumps in catecholaminergic synapses. The levels of this metabolite, however, are low. Someone once commented that you could write a four-page summary about the things it does, and I would tend to agree. The things I pointed out above, however, are most relevant for the aspie connection. quote: That being the case, it's not clear that AS really qualifies as an evolutionary advance, rather than a simple variation, unless these environmental factors are in fact a long-term part of the environment. It is not clear, but there are a significant number of historical figures whose contributions would not have occured if it was not part of our gene pool. In that regard, it represents an advantage for the species as a whole, at least, although one can debate whether it is an advance on an individual level. In the presence of a preexisting society with no real support network, it certainly isn't. quote: It is also far from clear that the trade off of empathy for intellect carries significant survival benefits. It does not imply lack of empathy. Just because they can't express it, doesn't mean they don't have it. Most aspies I know have a profound sense of empathy, and more so than all the NTs I know. Perhaps we use the term differently?

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 10:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane How uninformed. Ever hear of Kuru? Apart from the fact that he was joking, let's carry the joke a bit further: Buy a Sony Playstation 3. Connect to Internet. Problem solved. By the time kuru manifests, if my memory serves, FAH should be done solving the problems associated with prion diseases. Given enough PS3's, that is. Of course, I can't recall whether these misfoldings occur exclusively in the brain or not. If they do, there is a simpler solution: discard the brain. It doesn't taste any different from bone marrow anyway. (Sheep brains are a delicacy where my father comes from; no humans were consumed in the writing of this post.)

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 10:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rhythmboi i ain't convinced, y'all...in the war-ridden society we live in, i think empathy would go alot farther than bluntness or logic as far as creating peace and equality. bombing the crap about of people has been logically justified again and again, but it doesn't stand up much to empathizing with those who are getting bombed. it's unfortunate that those in political power don't use (or perhaps have) empathy skills. Quite the other way around. The bulk of recent warfare, and especially the current situation, has no logical justification, and pretty much everything about it has been thoroughly debunked. If people were logical, someone would have grabbed GWBjr by now, and hauled him off to Florida to stick him with the 3500V alternating he keeps around for the UMs... There is a lot of empathy going on there, however. I got what CitizenCane was talking about when Najakcharmer explained it. Quite simply, I have been using the word to refer to something that encompasses compassion and a few other bits, whereas it refers to identifying emotionally and adopting those emotions. I can do that, as well, but I spent a lot of time training not to, starting way back in kindergarden or so. This empathy is the foundation for bypassing logic. It gets the desired response without critical thought, because the paths through the mind that involve critical thought are not engaged in processing. Hence, an illogical war becomes possible. Rejecting election polls and statistical validation of election results becomes possible. Enacting laws that harm legitimate citizens without impeding those with malicious intent becomes possible. Heck, Gitmo even has value as a distraction, given enough empathy. quote: is not being able to experience empathy the same thing as not having a conscience? Complicated question. It is certainly not the same as not having compassion. However, a "conscience" is little more than a social construct. Conscience is an umbrella term for a variety of mechanisms of behavioural regulation. If you're curious, you can search my posts for the words "moral" and "strategies". It will turn up some treatments of that topic, mostly based on fairly well-accepted research.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 10:53:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aubre My conscience has always been on overdrive, I know how that feels. ~nod~

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 11:00:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin At one time all these labels were unknown, Just a quick detour... Language consists of two components: labels and structure. Labels, commonly referred to as "words", name objects, qualities and processes. Some labels refer to classes, like "man" or "woman", others to instances, like "Pete" or "Mary". Those classes form a hierarchy of increasingly specific meaning, with "proper names" at one end. Structure provides the relationship between the labels, in what is known as a context-free grammar. There may well have been a time before labels. But that time is when every rock was a unique thing. At that time, there truly was no such thing as "a rock". Language may or may not have been an improvement.

Aswad -> RE: D/s and Asperger's Syndrome (7/2/2007 11:13:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl Aswad, you sound like you're saying that aspies should be taught that it's ok to lie sometimes. It's not. Ever. Please point me in the general direction of objective facts to support your position. Morals are subjective and arbitrary; they can be handed down, or chosen. Those who are handed down are the product of evolution, and crufty. Personal ones are architected one way or the other, and individual. No single act has been reviled in all cultures at all times; not one. Most acts are acceptable in one or more cultures, or was once. Simply put, you choose your own morals, or choose to accept someone else's. There is nothing fundamental or intrinsically "real" about it. Neurotypicals generally consider lying to be okay. I don't. However, I consider stuff to be okay if the "victim" has consented to what I do. For that reason, I consider it okay to lie to the extent that they are willing to be lied to. With a bit of work, that extent can be codified. Note that they consider lying to be wrong outside a specific set of rules. Neurotypicals have the run of things, and generally, in some cases, view honesty the same way you and I might view a lie. In order for the aspie in question to function in "hostile territory", they need to adopt certain survival skills. In the jungle, that entails finding fresh water and food, avoiding predators, and so forth. In neurotypical society, it entails lying, second-guessing, keeping score, and so forth; basically, when in Rome, do like the Romans. I'm not saying to tell them lying is right or wrong. I'm saying to make up one's mind about which is the case, and whether there are gray areas, and then explaining this; rearing imparts values, after all, even with most aspies. For most NTs, the solution using this strategy, is to explain how NT society works, and in NT society, it is a gray area, where lying is wrong in some cases, right in some cases, and outright required in some cases.

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