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What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 3:40:36 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		It's always fascinated me that people claim they are a submissive or even a slave to another yet they are the first to espouse their "limits", the benefits of establishing limits, and having 'safe words'. To me, anyone who "submits" but has limits or requires a safe-word is not submitting to anything other than the sensations they are "allowing" another to do to them. If you can't trust someone enough to scene with them without specifics or a safe-word you are just allowing - not submitting. The "dom/me" is in actuality a service provider. Don't get me wrong - sensations are VERY FUN! And being a "service provider" does come with benefits especially if the services you are providing fulfill your needs. Being a "service provider" to an "allower" is a great way to get experience to use when you find a person who trust you enough to just "let go".

I'd like to know the answer to the same question I ask any when I have this argument in person. When you have a safe-word, what part of your brain or mental state do you allocate to determine if you need to use it? Tell me, whatever part/place that is, why isn't that representative of a part of you that you aren't giving, aren't feeling, and are holding back? And if you have a "master" how is it that he rationalizes this part of you that isn't his/hers?

I know in this age of instant gratification you want to meet and jump right into it. Having a check list of activities and agreeing to a safe word makes that happen. It would be better would be to take the time to know and trust a person well enough to not need it but most people don't want to take that time.

People who disagree usually admit ultimately that they have never been with someone they have trusted enough not to have negotiated limits or a safe word. Until you do - I'd argue you'll never know what real submission feel like, or real dominance for that matter.
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 4:05:06 PM   
SecretDomme


Posts: 152
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I know in this age of instant gratification you want to meet and jump right into it. Having a check list of activities and agreeing to a safe word makes that happen. It would be better would be to take the time to know and trust a person well enough to not need it but most people don't want to take that time.

People who disagree usually admit ultimately that they have never been with someone they have trusted enough not to have negotiated limits or a safe word. Until you do - I'd argue you'll never know what real submission feel like, or real dominance for that matter.



To me it's just common sense to have some safety built into activities. The other night I was playing with a close sub friend of mine (and, no, we didn't just "jump" into things), and he utilized a safe signal in the middle of an anal scene. It wasn't because I had reached a limit of his, but because he had the sudden urgency to urinate, and he knew if I didn't stop, my bed would be soaked. He was blindfolded and gagged, and I was grateful that he had a way to let me know that something else was happening at the time.

It's interesting that you use that popular word "real" in your statements about "real submission" and "real dominance". Perhaps you should define what constitutes "real". I would also question whether you feel those of use who practice D/s with limits and safe words are somehow less Dominant or submissive because we don't do it just like you.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 4:10:06 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

People who disagree usually admit ultimately that they have never been with someone they have trusted enough not to have negotiated limits or a safe word. Until you do - I'd argue you'll never know what real submission feel like, or real dominance for that matter.


I don't see it as so black & white. I see it as a progression. It takes time to trust someone so limits in the begining I think are a healthy thing. As time goes by however, I don't want limits hindering what it is that I want to do. If I know someone is going to have a hard time dealing with my sadistic disposition, it is very likely that it isn't going to work out long term in a D/s sense.

I agree with you about the "not submitting" bit though. That is why I call my boy, my boy, and not my sub. Though he is a bottom to me, highly devoted to me and worships me, he is definitely not a slave nor is he "a submissive".

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 4:28:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

It's interesting that you use that popular word "real" in your statements about "real submission" and "real dominance". Perhaps you should define what constitutes "real". I would also question whether you feel those of use who practice D/s with limits and safe words are somehow less Dominant or submissive because we don't do it just like you.

Be well,
Julie


My mistake, missed that focusing buzz word when I posted. No distinction intended other than wanting to make a distinction of experiences without a safe word and with one.

But what would have been your reaction to your sub just saying; "Mistress - I need to pee? Reading again that he was gagged I guess it would be problematic. I have had beth in distress while gagged, she pulled a muscle while in restraint. I knew, because I knew her, that her struggling wasn't an physical example of orgasmic bliss. I sure you would be able to differentiate between standard struggling and distress struggling. So was the "safe signal" a confirmation of what you knew or suspected? Did you need the signal? In any regard it was a good example.

My wonder is from the submissive's perspective. Is every blow, every action analyzed and compared to some self set limit?

(in reply to SecretDomme)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 4:43:15 PM   
Tempestspet


Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline 		I do have a safe word, which I have never ever used. There has never been a need. Master knows me almost better than I do. And I trust him completely.
To me, the safe word, is if something suddenly goes very very wrong..... for whatever imaginable reason. Personally, I can't think of a reason... but hey... I supose one just never knows... it's just something there in case. Mostly, in case someone else is playing with me, and cannot read me as well as Master.

There have been times, when I was not "in the mood" for whatever was being done to me. Well, it's not for me, but Master, that said act is being done. So...... nuff said on that in my opinion..... *smiles*

I can always ask Master to play, have something done.... but when, where, how... all those details remain in his total control. Period.

I've heard this aid... just you do something, how or when the sub/slave does not like... and see how long they are still your sub or slave..
This is absolutely ridiculous to me. Find someone that doesn't just play at it... and you will find one that doesn't disappeared because he/she failed to top from the bottom, or control you better.

I hope that I've grasped, and answered Merc and beth's post.... please allow me to clarify or expand if anyone would like...

Thank you,
Tempest's pet
jennifer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 4:56:09 PM   
asissyforher


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: iowa now..maybe move soon.
Status: offline 		argh couldn't get reply to work..had to do it this way.

just as well. i have a short answer.
what part of me uses a safeword? the part with ears that hears Goddess say if i am in too much pain, because i am not used to play..use the word She whispered.

thanks


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"still looking for a real life domme..no more plastic wannabes for me"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 4:59:50 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		My opinion on this topic is that there does need to be a safety net - especially at first, and honestly, I'm not one for walking the high-wire without one even after I've been doing this for awhile.

We have never had anyone that we played with use a safe-word, but they have all had one. They are also clear on when it is appropriate to use it and when it isn't (in another thread, a pyl was using it to get out of things she didn't feel like doing ... our boys don't do that - they know better). I feel it is part of building trust - they know that if we miss something, they have a way to let us know that something is wrong, and that makes them feel more comfortable in allowing us to truss them up and smack them around (among other things).

But this is one of the main differences that we see between a sub and a slave ... and why we are quite clear that we do not want a slave and will not treat anyone as a slave (as we define it) for more than a scene. A slave doesn't have a safeword, a slave doesn't have any power over this, a slave has given up all rights to such things ... hopefully to a person who will use that power and the slave well and respectfully of the fact that they are still a human being. We, however, do not want that.

We also don't feel that giving them a safeword means that they are topping from the bottom, or that it is any less "real" of an experience. We are still in charge - and depending on why they use the safeword (should they ever do so), there may be consequences ... and we make sure that they know that coming into the relationship. If it's a situation that their bladder suddenly MUST be relieved, as the example earlier - no consequences because well ... they can't very well control that and we can go back to whatever we were doing once the problem is solved. If it's a situation where they don't want to do something then we'll have a talk and figure out why, as well as deciding if there will be any punishment/discipline.

*edited for typos*

< Message edited by SweetDommes -- 6/13/2005 5:01:27 PM >

(in reply to Tempestspet)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 5:06:01 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I've heard this aid... just you do something, how or when the sub/slave does not like... and see how long they are still your sub or slave..
This is absolutely ridiculous to me.


jennifer,
I don't believe in these sort of "tests" either. You only need to test something if you don't trust it to "work". We trust each other not to worry about that.

I'd like to reference your statement about playing with another to answer my question. Obviously when you are not with your Master their isn't the same level of trust. That's why you need a safe-word right? So when with the other - are you in a different head space? Is there a part of you doing deeper analysis of what you are feeling? If that is going on, are you submitting or "allowing"; up to or until you don't want to allow it any more? your Master providing you a safe word in this case is really Him assigning His authority to you isn't he? Ultimately you are "dom-ing" over the scene with that authority.

My argument is that remove the fact that you have a Master and you represent all those who scene or have relationship where safe-words often come into play. Or am I missing something?

(in reply to Tempestspet)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 5:09:36 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


People who disagree usually admit ultimately that they have never been with someone they have trusted enough not to have negotiated limits or a safe word. Until you do - I'd argue you'll never know what real submission feel like, or real dominance for that matter.



I have other gripes about safewords in general, but I think something that happens in most BDSM relationships that evolve to a certain level is that safewords really become irrelevant. If both people share a common bond (call it love, call it soul mates, call it an extremely intimate connection based on many hours of "reading" each other), the need for a 'safeword' becomes less of an issue. The submissives trusts the dominant more than they may even trust their own judgement at times; that in itself is a bit boggling. Because, in reality, a safeword to me (in intense, personal relationships) is almost a false sense of security. So if the sub doesn't safeword, even though they appear to be going into some sort of shock the dominant has never seen -- well, then it's gotta be ok, right?

I think most dominants at this level of play (intensity relating only as it is relevant -- that is, intensity close to/pushing the submissives boundaries, whatever they may be) are keenly aware of what they are doing and how their partner is reacting. But, I think both partners *know* they are at that level, and it all goes without saying.

I've never used safewords in relationship-based play (meaning, I know my partner, we're in tune with each other) at all, and rarely used them even in casual play -- I prefer simple, good old fashioned *communication* -- it won't screw up my concentration or mess with me, and it's good to know really what is going on -- that's how I learn the things I need to know to get to that next level with them. The only time I find safewords mandatory are in roleplaying situations where the submissive is clearly going to be behaving in distress and hamming up the resistance play -- but, I'd even argue that with a partner a dominant knows well, he/she could still sense when a situation really has gone astray.

Some people suggest that safewords are good for people who are engaging in casual play (since they don't know them as well) -- and I think this can be foolish sometimes also. I think some "new" submissives might fear more "what would the dominant think" if he/she "safeworded" (gasp) -- some submissives almost consider it a pride thing to say "I've never had to safeword." Whereas, if the dominant just left it open for normal communication, the submissive could say, "I think I have a cramp in my foot -- it's not a big deal, but can you stop for a second..". For some dominants, also, hearing "safeword!" --- whatever that may be -- sends them into a screeching halt emotionally and mentally and into reaction mode, worry mode, and if it's just "no big thing," it's like driving through a pot hole as far as momentum goes. When, really, it could have all been avoided with a simple direct statement that could be addressed.

Finally, of course, "signals" as safewords are important if a submissive is not able to speak. Even then, a gagged/hooded slave with a "safe sign" does not mean the dominant can freely go to town until/unless the submissive gives the sign -- the dominant should always be reading the submissive.

Akasha

_____________________________

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 5:20:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Akasha,
I thank you and the others who have addressed the "safe-word" aspect of the post. I was hoping to understand more about "HOW" they work. I know I can never feel what beth, or any other hard-wired submissive person feels. I've debated more often on the submissive side of the argument AGAINST safe words because it puts all the onus on the sub. A dom can blame any accident on the fact that the sub didn't safe-word. It porvides a GREAT escape clause for abusive doms.

I'd like to focus on how a person can "let themselves go into sub space" and still consider a safe-word valid. Is a safe-word a short cut to establishing a relationship built on trust? Or I'd be willing to hear argument to the opinion that safe-word and limit maintaining submissives aren't the person allowing the dom to perform a service for/on them. I just hope that doesn't get into a discussion of topping from below.

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 5:36:05 PM   
Davesgirl


Posts: 89
Joined: 5/13/2005
Status: offline 		Hello everyone......

The subject of safewords is something my Master and I just discussed a day or so ago. We discussed the need for one, both his and mine. We discussed when it might be needed. Finally, after mutual discussing, we decided that one was not needed. Now, before everyone jumps, let me explain a few things first.

My Master is also my Fiance. We have a few years behind us, and a deep rooted love and trust. It is only because I love and trust him implicitly, that I was able to finally open up my true nature, and submit to him. For this reason alone do I call my submission a gift to him, and him alone. The urge and desire has been within me for longer than I can remember. But it was only his strength, confidence, and trustworthiness that made me able to submit to him. While I know some may say that since I call it a gift, and a gift can be retracted, that it isnt submission. But, instead, its an allowance. I have to say that simply isnt true, as it eprtains to my Master and I's relationship. I gave myself to him, for life. WE're both very new and still learning, but we're doing it together.

Wow...I really can ramble on...Got totally off track...lol

My point in all this rambling is thus.......We dont have a safeword. The sole reason is that we only play together. For now...that may change at his discretion. If and when that day comes, damn right I'll have one. But, for now, we dont use one. Because, we are both aware of my limits. And, I assure you, they are quite few. 1) No cutting or bleeding. Im not into pain, nor does he get off or find any pelasure in me screaming in terror. 2) No "watersports or scat" Thats just not my cup of tea, nor is it his. 3) Nothing that will endanger or expose our children to things they have no business learning about at their young age. 4) No slapping me in anger. That is abusive and I will not live that way again. Nor does he ahve any desire to sit around beating me all day. So, my limits are things we've talked about long before I hit my knees before him. BUt does that make me any less his slave? No, I dont think so. Note though, I said his slave. I dont submit to everyone that claims to be a Master or Dom.......Im too high spirited and bitchy for that.

And please keep in mind, this is simply how thigns pertain to my Master and Is relationship. I dont expect everyone to share our view on things. but I always welcome questions and advice. As I said, we are both new to this, and learning everyday.

My apologies though, for rambling on and on and on.......

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 5:47:53 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My wonder is from the submissive's perspective. Is every blow, every action analyzed and compared to some self set limit?


I've never had a safe word. Never had a limit other than what will potentially harm me mentally or physically either.
It look's as if you're getting about the same responses to this post as you did the last time you asked it.

The way you are going in my opinion you should just ask, who is truly in control? Someone asked that a week or so ago here. Nobody really addressed the question.

Maybe its time to address it? Does a sub control the scene by her or his limits and safeword?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 6:03:27 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


People who disagree usually admit ultimately that they have never been with someone they have trusted enough not to have negotiated limits or a safe word. Until you do - I'd argue you'll never know what real submission feel like, or real dominance for that matter.



Just to play devil's advocate a little on this thought --

Can you take that even further, and say someone will never know what real dominance is like unless they've dominated someone who wasn't a submissive? You mentioned that limits/safewords allows the sub to set the boundaries a little or turns it into a bit of a 'service provider'...

Well, a submissive, by the nature of being submissive, enjoys the act of submission as a whole.

With that line of thinking, would dominating a "non submissive" be even *more* "real" dominance?

NOTE: I am not talking about NO CONSENT dominance -- I am talking about dominating someone who doesn't actively seek the act of submission, but agrees to do it without regrets.


Akasha

_____________________________

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 6:03:52 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		In all of the relationships that we have had, we have had something similar to what Davesgirl and her Man have - where our limits are mutual, so even if they weren't limits for the boys, they are OUR limits so it doesn't really matter.

The safeword thing for us is just for an emergency, a stop-gap measure, that safety net that I mentioned earlier ... just in case we miss a sign that we should have seen. We have stopped scenes before, but never because a boy safeworded - we always saw that there was a problem before it got to that point. However, we are not infallible (infallable? I don't know how to spell it, but you get the point, right?), so we want the backup. We check on them regularly ("are you still ok?" type questions), but there is still always the chance that we will miss something and we will wait just a second or two too long to check them (and we have never had complaints that this interfered with sub-space).

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 6:06:54 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		I'm thinkin' that maybe if beth had a safe word she might not have gotten to the point that she pulled a muscle?

Just some bored Monday night musings from a self defined "bottom."

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 6:58:58 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		This point that Merc makes, among many others is the reason I really don't get the whole emphasis on the "safe word" as being this huge thing that will keep you safe like some sword in the stone.

I advise using a safeword when just topping/bottoming, or when doing force/role play when normal screams of terror aren't enough (even in pain scenes, it's usually easy to tell the difference between "god that fucking hurts" and "god somethings really wrong" screams).

Otherwise- just use basic communication. The margin for abuse, misuse and manipulation is so obvious and far spread, why else would someone use them? Subs can't be trusted in a scene to safeword appropriately, even if ordered to, doms can't be trusted to rely on a single word to enact a good scene, so toss them out.

(in reply to MsIncognito)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 7:06:38 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The safeword thing for us is just for an emergency, a stop-gap measure, that safety net that I mentioned earlier ... just in case we miss a sign that we should have seen. We have stopped scenes before, but never because a boy safeworded - we always saw that there was a problem before it got to that point.


Exactly I don't advocate not having one at all. I don't have one. Never had a need for it. By the time my doma nd I first played within the lifestyle we had a longstanding vanilla/sexual relationship and there was love there. He knew how to read me. If he hadn't, I'd have a safe word today.
We do not have edge play, things do not go too far with us.


For anyone I highly suggest they use a safe word, especially when starting out. For someone not to, well that is ignorance and any "good" dom would have the submissive have one. People can get hurt very badly.

(in reply to SweetDommes)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 7:12:28 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Can you take that even further, and say someone will never know what real dominance is like unless they've dominated someone who wasn't a submissive?


That is interesting. I dominate someone who is not a submissive in my primary relationship.

And for the record, he and I have never had a safeword, though we have discussed limits and we have over come many of them, both his and mine.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 7:43:04 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		For me I know that all a "safeword " is, is a form of communication, slightly less direct than straight forward talk. The use of a safeword is really just a call for communication.
When I hear the yellow I know that I've missed something or that my bottom isn't reacting exactly the same way physiologicly, as they normally do. menstration, PMS, any number of other variables can effect the slave and 99 times out of 100 I get it right. However that 1 time when I miss something the safeword really serves as a (one) possible method of INITIATING a verbal communication. Which is after all what they were designed to do.

Part of my personal use of them is that I don't ever want to hear a red unless I have heard a yellow first, otherwise they have not communicated with me properly in the first place.

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What Part of you is "Monitoring"? - 6/13/2005 8:50:10 PM   
Synocense


Posts: 255
Joined: 8/8/2004
Status: offline 		When I played with my Master, there was no safeword. I was his slave. When I play at Desert Dominion, however, I am submitting to a specific set of actions with a specific person/list of persons for a specific amount of time. While the trust is there that they will adhere to that, I also feel the responsibility to keep myself safe, so not only do I have my own safeword, but the clubs "universal" code of Green, Yellow, Red to fall back on. Because I have this power, doesn't make me any less a slave. The funny thing about this is, before the scene starts, I am well aware of my option to call Red at any time, however, in the midst of it, even when I was accidentally being burned over and over again with candle wax and crying out that it was too hot, this power to stop it never once occured to me. Perhaps its the opposite of someone who jumps the gun and blows their safeword before it really gets to the point they cant take it or are in true distress, neither is good. Maybe a happy medium?

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to Archer)
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