Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (Full Version)

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stella40 -> Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 5:00:54 AM)

I do voluntary work with the homeless in London. One of the things I do is to go out onto the streets of London with a CAT team, which looks for homeless people who are sleeping on the streets, assigns them a CAT number which makes them 'officially' homeless, and gives them priority when it comes to receiving housing.

The metropolitan London area is home to just under 14 million people, making it arguably Europe's largest city and it is seen as a world city. Finding somewhere to live, as with finding any sort of space for any reason such as business or for other activities can be difficult, time-consuming, and is usually expensive. In the 1980's Margaret Thatcher's Right To Buy policies for council tenants mean that local authority housing is in very short supply, if at all it is available. Housing in any form is hard to come by, and even bed spaces in hostels and night shelters are also hard to come by. This is why we now have street homeless people.

The popular media are very quick to convince you that street homeless people are undeserving of your taxes. They characterise these people - who are the weakest and most vulnerable members of society - as benefit scrounging junkies, aggressive beggars and alcoholic freeloaders. Hardly anybody today fits this stereotype, but these people - like the large families on benefits who keep having children - are in the minority, and nowadays are becoming very few and far between. The truth is however, if you are homeless and sleeping on the streets and don't have an address for correspondence with a bank account you will not be considered for any benefits.

But being homeless and sleeping on the streets is still not guaranteed to get you a CAT number and to give you priority. Families get priority, which is why you never see a family who is street homeless. The street homeless are therefore invariably single people and couples (which can be parents estranged from their children for some reason). To get priority you have to be vulnerable and different local authorities have different interpretations on what is vulnerable, but all accept that a CAT number makes someone vulnerable.

There are very strict guidelines for issuing CAT numbers. There has to be a significant risk to oneself or to other people to qualify as being vulnerable. CAT numbers are given out between the hours of 1am and 5.30am. The person receiving the CAT number must be seen to be sleeping in an open air place, they MUST also be lying on the ground and also MUST be lying horizontally. There must also be clear evidence that the person has been doing this all night.

One such recipient is Trisha (none of the names used are real) in her early 30's, who is probably bipolar and who is definitely HIV. Trisha has had a couple of hostel places it seems, but was evicted for 'being too difficult'. Trisha spends her time selling her body at petrol stations, often for loose change or even for a handful of cigarettes. In this way she could be having sex with up to five or ten men a day. It isn't clear whether precautions were taken, but in some cases it seems highly unlikely.

Another case is Martin. Martin was a TEFL English teacher in Italy, but was forced to return home when his school went bust and stopped paying him, owing him three months salary. He returned to the streets of London. He was sleeping in an alleyway when he woke up to find a man coming out of a nightclub peeing on him. When he objected this man got together with four of his friends and beat Martin to a pulp. Martin now has severe depression, PTSD and talks with a stammer.

The 'benefit-scrounging', homeless junkies and alcoholics - who the popular media love so much to show living it up on all your hardearned taxes - aren't usually homeless, but the tabloid journalists aren't interested in facts but in a story which sells. The truth is usually completely different.

Quite a few of the homeless are Eastern European migrant workers, quite often from Poland and Lithuania. They came because they were told that they would have 'guaranteed' work in Britain, from their media, from what they heard from other people, even from their local labour exchange. Sometimes these people were beaten up and robbed by other Poles when they arrived in the country, others do not speak English, some arrive with not enough money even to book into a cheap bed and breakfast. They are not entitled to any help for 2 years from their arrival in the UK. One of the things I do is to try and persuade homeless Poles to return home and to refer them for repatriation (a ticket home from a Polish charity) and a place to sleep until they are repatriated.

There are as many reasons now why someone has to sleep on the streets as there are people - divorce, domestic violence, loss of employment, eviction through non-payment of rent, release from prison, eviction from a hostel, mental illness, emotional disturbance, depression, a bank repossessing your home - each and every homeless person sleeping on the streets has their own story to tell. Despite the fact that you need an address to be employed (or to receive benefits) quite a few of the street homeless work. However most don't because they are struggling to deal with some sort of crisis.

There used to be 'soup runs' running throughout Central London in the early hours of the morning, giving these homeless people hot soup, bread and tea and coffee run by charities. However these were stopped due to late night revellers coming and taking the bread and the soup and causing problems. And from what I can see being on the streets of Central London in the early hours of the morning, the majority of people who are abusing alcohol and drugs are the people who have homes and jobs.

There was a time when you could get yourself off the street if you could find a private landlord willing to accept Housing Benefit (which you also had to pay towards). However local authorities quickly realised that homelessness is big business, and so have forced private landlords out of this area of housing through being slow to decide Houisng Benefit claims and the insistance that the landlord meet with a Fair Rent Officer - so that a private landlord would have to wait up to a year before receiving any rent and the Housing Benefit paid would be far less than the rent which the landlord requires.

The truth of the matter is that nobody - save for one or two charities - is interested in helping the homeless unless some sort of profit is guaranteed. What normally happens is that only the more vulnerable homeless sleeping on the streets find places in hostels, which are either run by charities or local authorities. The homeless person is given a room, often at an inflated rent (anything up to £200 a week) which effectively prevents them from being able to find work and places them in a 'benefit trap' (a situation where it would be detrimental to stop benefits) so that Housing Benefit can be paid with money from.... Central Government. In this way not only the former street homeless, but also single mothers, families and asylum seekers are kept in temporary accomodation often for two to three years, but it can be as long as ten or fifteen years, before being moved on to more permanent accomodation.

This explodes the other myth about someone 'being given a flat' which appears also to come from the popular media. Nobody is given a flat there and then, especially a local authority flat, because there are no such flats to give away. This has been the situation since Margaret Thatcher's Right To Buy. There are, of course areas in the United Kingdom which are less popular areas in which to live where one may be given a council flat straight away but usually anyone who is given a flat has had to go through the system I have described above and to wait some years before being offered a flat.

Trisha was evicted from a hostel in the same week as Marjorie, another resident, was given a flat after spending three years in hostel accomodation. Marjorie was almost 50, had served 8 years for a violent assault on a man and had both drug and alcohol issues. Trisha, despite being bipolar and HIV positive has no criminal record and no drug or alcohol issues.

I'm posting this because I read a lot of postings and some are posted from people concerned over the perceived recipients of their hard earned tax money - whether it be people on welfare, single mothers, women requiring abortions etc. Some of us appear to be concerned as to who gets the help and why.

However what I find is not many people are really bothered as to how their hardearned tax money is spent.

Is it perfectly acceptable to leave the majority of street homeless to their own devices and without any sort of help?

Are we happy with a system which is only helping people if some sort of profit is involved or if the return from their help is financially viable? If this system works so well with the homeless and housing, why not adopt such strategies in healthcare?

What is it we find so unacceptable about people without homes and without work who require help from the authorities? Why do we automatically assume that there is something wrong with them? What is so wrong about approaching the authorities for help when help is needed?

Your thoughts and comments please.




Level -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 5:14:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella40


I'm posting this because I read a lot of postings and some are posted from people concerned over the perceived recipients of their hard earned tax money - whether it be people on welfare, single mothers, women requiring abortions etc. Some of us appear to be concerned as to who gets the help and why.

I am absolutey "concerned" as to who gets my tax dollars, and why. It'd be foolish not to.

However what I find is not many people are really bothered as to how their hardearned tax money is spent.

Is it perfectly acceptable to leave the majority of street homeless to their own devices and without any sort of help?

No.

Are we happy with a system which is only helping people if some sort of profit is involved or if the return from their help is financially viable? If this system works so well with the homeless and housing, why not adopt such strategies in healthcare?

What is it we find so unacceptable about people without homes and without work who require help from the authorities? Why do we automatically assume that there is something wrong with them? What is so wrong about approaching the authorities for help when help is needed?

Sometimes, something is wrong with them. There is nothing wrong with asking for help, if it's honestly needed.

Your thoughts and comments please.




meatcleaver -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 5:48:12 AM)

Until the government realizes it needs to build affordable social housing the homeless problem won't go away. I wouldn't mind my taxes being spent on housing as long as the houses were kept in the public sector. The stupidity of the British housing market is that people with mortgages get tax relief which in reality means people can pay higher prices for houses which in turn pushes the prices up and gives people at the top end of the market a windfall when they decide to cash in their housing asset. Meanwhile social housing disappears and the vulnerable are left to fend for themselves on the street. Until the government decides to stop giving social handouts to people who don't need them ie. the middleclasses as usual, there is little point in doing anything. I don't like the idea of my taxes being spent on social workers who are otherwise unemployable and largely on the property markets getting handouts. Until then I'll just keep buying the Big Issue and giving people money for a sandwhich and handout a couple of ciggies when I pass the homeless.




mnottertail -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 5:51:44 AM)

yeah, fuck 'em, we have to save talk radio....let's focus on important social issues here guys......




GeekyGirl -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:02:00 AM)

I can't speak for England or Europe because I don't live there.

In america, jobs are everywhere and I have no use for some SOB too lazy to go apply for one.

Hell, my aunt is 55yrs old, obese, had no GED or high school education, and she is never without a job. Why? Because she might be stupid but she isn't lazy. She walks the sidewalks putting in applications at every establishment she comes to until someone hires her. If her dumb ass can do it, anyone can.

Sorry, no sympathy here except for children who have no choice in the matter. I'm not even sympathetic to women. Their ass could get a job too. Most homeless women I've come in contact with have spent their whole lives popping out puppies instead of getting a job and an education. Why should I feel sorry for them? Lazy people are useless....I don't really care what happens to them.

America is a land of opportunity...if you can't be successful here, you're probably just a useless human being that we don't need anyway.




slaveluci -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:12:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
I can't speak for England or Europe because I don't live there.

And you can't speak "for" America, either.  You can only state your own take on things.

quote:

Why should I feel sorry for them? Lazy people are useless....I don't really care what happens to them.

America is a land of opportunity...if you can't be successful here, you're probably just a useless human being that we don't need anyway.

I don't know you personally, of course, but whenever I've encountered folks who have these attitudes it's usually because they have never needed an ounce of compassion themselves so they can have none for anyone else.  I agree with you that lazy people are a pain in the ass.  I know people who are just simply too shiftless to get a job and take any responsibility.  But, it pains me to hear blanket statements made about people bing "useless" and worthless.  I don't think any human being is that.  You are totally entitled to your opinions, of course, but I think it's a tiny bit idealistic and simplistic to hang on to the idea that America is a "land of opportunity" where all you have to do is pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get in there and get all you want.  In a country full of working poor, with no medical insurance, and bankruptcy laws being made tougher all the time to punish us (and where most people are a paycheck or two away from being homeless and not everyone has family to fall back on), it's easy to see how people can wind up hurting and fast.  Have a little empathy, huh?[;)].............luci




GeekyGirl -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:16:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
I can't speak for England or Europe because I don't live there.

And you can't speak "for" America, either.  You can only state your own take on things.

quote:

Why should I feel sorry for them? Lazy people are useless....I don't really care what happens to them.

America is a land of opportunity...if you can't be successful here, you're probably just a useless human being that we don't need anyway.

I don't know you personally, of course, but whenever I've encountered folks who have these attitudes it's usually because they have never needed an ounce of compassion themselves so they can have none for anyone else.  I agree with you that lazy people are a pain in the ass.  I know people who are just simply too shiftless to get a job and take any responsibility.  But, it pains me to hear blanket statements made about people bing "useless" and worthless.  I don't think any human being is that.  You are totally entitled to your opinions, of course, but I think it's a tiny bit idealistic and simplistic to hang on to the idea that America is a "land of opportunity" where all you have to do is pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get in there and get all you want.  In a country full of working poor, with no medical insurance, and bankruptcy laws being made tougher all the time to punish us (and where most people are a paycheck or two away from being homeless and not everyone has family to fall back on), it's easy to see how people can wind up hurting and fast.  Have a little empathy, huh?[;)].............luci


Sorry, empathy isn't my strong suit and never was (you musta missed the aspergers thread.)

I am not an empathetic person and have no interest in becoming one.




meatcleaver -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:23:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

America is a land of opportunity...if you can't be successful here, you're probably just a useless human being that we don't need anyway.



You have failed to keep yourself informed. Last year an OECD report on social mobility put thew US at the bottom of the list when it came to social mobility in the western world. The country just above the US and with more or less an equally derisory record on opportunity was Britain. I can't speak with direct experience of the US but I can of Britain and I can compare it to several other western European countries I've lived in and this report came as no surprise.




RCdc -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:24:32 AM)

Ok... this just shows how ill informed people are.  Not picking on you Geeky, really - but your attitude is really immature and is one of the reason people are unable to get jobs as well because it is people with these attitudes that turn away perfectly good workforces.  I know - I have seen it.
 
My ex was made redundant over two years ago.  For over two years he has been trying and apply for jobs over and over.  He is a highly skilled IT manager - yet he applied for manual work, retail, postal, and positions far below his possible skills.  And what was he told?  He was to over educated.  He was too old.   And even that he had been unemployed too long!  It was even suggested to him that he should put on his C.V that he took a 'work break' and not that he has been unemployed, because taking a 'work break' makes him more employable than saying you are out of work.
So don't you dare sit there and accuse those people who are homeless of having plenty of oppotunities because it isn't as easy as walking into your local asda (or K-mart whatever) and getting a shelf packing position - apart from anything else you cant get housing without a job and you cant get a job without housing most of the time.
 
As a side note - he just heard that he has been accepted to a management position and starts next week after 2 and a half years unemployment and constant job searching.
 
Peace
the.dark.




LadyEllen -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:27:33 AM)

Again I find myself agreeing with MC. The criminal Thatcher has much to answer for I'm afraid. She may have been out of power for twenty odd years now, but it was she who set the stage for the society we have now, with the selling off of social housing. The apparent policy being intended to give as many people as possible a stake in the country, the real reason as I see it was to promote the interests of the City Of London, from where all these new home owners would have to draw their mortgages.

Following on from that, one strangulates the building of new homes - and the price of housing in short supply shoots through the roof. Armed with all that new equity in their properties, these new homeowners could take out bank loans, credit cards and spend like there was no tomorrow. Except, first time round there was a tomorrow when some bright spark engineered a run on the pound that brought us to the days of interest rates in the teens to put things back where they were. Cue a round of repossessions from those unable to pay the high interest on their mortgages and a crash in house prices so that we could go round again. Meanwhile, the City sold off the repossessed houses for what they had initially loaned out, and all the people evicted needed housing in what was left of the social housing pool.

So now here we are again at the crest of another wave that may well break soon. We cant build more houses because then the value of equity homeowners have will fall as houses become plentiful and prices drop - and that would leave their heavy borrowing (which funds the economy) uncovered by said equity. But when the moment comes just right, all those homeowners will find out just for whom this country is being run, again.

We have of course had two Prime Ministers since Thatcher (the third since has just started, so we'll leave him out of it for now) who could have solved all this. But to my mind, the die was cast in the early 80s and there is little anyone can do now short of mitigating the disaster of national bankruptcy which will ensue at some stage soon when our assets fall in value as the market once again takes its profit.

The homeless dont appear on the balance sheet.

E




GeekyGirl -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:27:42 AM)

It's EXACTLY as easy as walking to your nearest kmart and putting in the application.

Most people end up homeless from poor decision making (for example, people who go into jobs with high pay but poor job security and then whine when they get fired...maybe the should have looked for something more stable?) How stable are IT jobs? I hear plumbers and garbage men are never lacking for work....




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:33:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

I can't speak for England or Europe because I don't live there.

In america, jobs are everywhere and I have no use for some SOB too lazy to go apply for one.

Hell, my aunt is 55yrs old, obese, had no GED or high school education, and she is never without a job. Why? Because she might be stupid but she isn't lazy. She walks the sidewalks putting in applications at every establishment she comes to until someone hires her. If her dumb ass can do it, anyone can.

Sorry, no sympathy here except for children who have no choice in the matter. I'm not even sympathetic to women. Their ass could get a job too. Most homeless women I've come in contact with have spent their whole lives popping out puppies instead of getting a job and an education. Why should I feel sorry for them? Lazy people are useless....I don't really care what happens to them.

America is a land of opportunity...if you can't be successful here, you're probably just a useless human being that we don't need anyway.



wow!! how fun it must be to live in a world where you have no problems.

forget that some homeless are mentally ill, and due to the gaps in our healthcare, they have no way of getting help.

forget that some are mentally ill from having served our country, to defend your right to sit and spew such garbage.....

forget some stay homeless rather than ask for help, because in their mind, that shows independance......

forget that some folks just are not good at managing their own lives, for reasons that might amaze or terrify us......

lets just exterminate them because they are useless.....

and im sure your dumbass aunt would much prefer to be called resourceful......

what color is the sky in the world you live in?




slaveluci -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:37:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Sorry, empathy isn't my strong suit and never was (you musta missed the aspergers thread.)

Actually, I have not read that thread, GeekyGirl.  I'll make a point to do so.
quote:

I am not an empathetic person and have no interest in becoming one.

OK.  As long as you're sure[:)].........luci




RCdc -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:38:53 AM)

IT jobs are very stable.  And it isn't easy walking into K-mart and applying.  Maybe in the states its easy meh - who knows.  But your talking bull in reality Geeky - when you are told over and over - what do you want a retail position for?  Oh sorry - you are over qualified.  You have been unemplyed too long.  You are not young enough to retrain.  You are too old for the position.  He was told by our council when he applied for the position of garbage collection that he was too qualified and that they wouldnt hire him because they didnt want to risk him leaving if he found another position.
 
As for plumbers, he couldnt get the training because he wasnt of the right age.  Same goes for electrician.
BTW- in the UK - a plumber and electrician are highly paid work - even more than some IT jobs - so I wouldn't dismiss plumbers and garbage men as second class, low paid work.
 
Peace
the.dark.




CrimsonMoan -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:50:38 AM)

I have to agree on the job bit. My SO is a trucker and do you know how many jobs he got passed on because he was a month shy of one year's worth of over the road driving. ONE MONTH people and he had never had one negative driving report when it came to his job. I love when people say its so easy. Bullshit it is. You think its so easy go to kmart, walmart, target two fast food joints. grab an application. fill them out see how many you here back from within a week or two. Have you ever heard of hiring freezes? And before someone says how can you be overqualified? Real easy its called you know way too much for whatever you want to apply for an THEY don't want to pay you what you are worth.




GeekyGirl -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:55:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

IT jobs are very stable.  And it isn't easy walking into K-mart and applying.  Maybe in the states its easy meh - who knows.  But your talking bull in reality Geeky - when you are told over and over - what do you want a retail position for?  Oh sorry - you are over qualified.  You have been unemplyed too long.  You are not young enough to retrain.  You are too old for the position.  He was told by our council when he applied for the position of garbage collection that he was too qualified and that they wouldnt hire him because they didnt want to risk him leaving if he found another position.
 
As for plumbers, he couldnt get the training because he wasnt of the right age.  Same goes for electrician.
BTW- in the UK - a plumber and electrician are highly paid work - even more than some IT jobs - so I wouldn't dismiss plumbers and garbage men as second class, low paid work.
 
Peace
the.dark.


First of all I did say that my opinion is specific to america. And when did I say that plumbers and garbage men were 2nd class? They're paid good here too...but people will choose less stable jobs because they feel that plumbing and garbage collection are "below" them.




RCdc -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 8:59:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

It's EXACTLY as easy as walking to your nearest kmart and putting in the application.

Most people end up homeless from poor decision making (for example, people who go into jobs with high pay but poor job security and then whine when they get fired...maybe the should have looked for something more stable?) How stable are IT jobs? I hear plumbers and garbage men are never lacking for work....



Congratulations! I'm not often rendered speechless after reading a post but this is the first time in quite a while. Are you really as naive as your post suggests or are you truly the answer to the problem of what to do with these pesky people who are stupid enough to choose to run from abusive households, or clearly not intelligent enough to outwit the companies who impose downsizing (which is the word I believe is used in that utopia called America that you seem to live in) on them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Why should I feel sorry for them? Lazy people are useless....I don't really care what happens to them.

America is a land of opportunity...if you can't be successful here, you're probably just a useless human being that we don't need anyway.


You know what, you're right! Let's get rid of all the lazy, useless people who have caught a bad break in life, or been fucked over by their employers, or suffered at the hands of abusive partners or parents. Jesus, if they're dumb enough to allow all that to happen to them then what possible use can there be in trying to help them get back on their feet, eh? What do you suggest? A bullet between the eyes? Zyklon-B shower parties? And then once they're gone we can turn on the rest of the useless people, eh? My, before we know it they're be just you and I left and what a utopia that will be!

You truly are a warm and wonderful human being.


Darcy




GeekyGirl -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 9:00:37 AM)

quote:

wow!! how fun it must be to live in a world where you have no problems.


I have all kinds of problems...you don't know a thing about me or the life I've been through.

quote:

forget that some homeless are mentally ill, and due to the gaps in our healthcare, they have no way of getting help.


Let's see, I have aspergers, manic depression, and OCD and I'm gainfully employed. As for "getting help", I've been to therapy and found it rarely made any difference anyway.

quote:

forget that some are mentally ill from having served our country, to defend your right to sit and spew such garbage....


There are tons of benefits available to veterans. I know a couple of very mentally-messed up veterans but they still manage to hold down jobs.

quote:

forget some stay homeless rather than ask for help, because in their mind, that shows independance......

It also shows pride and stupidity. I don't feel sorry for them.

quote:

forget that some folks just are not good at managing their own lives, for reasons that might amaze or terrify us.....


Trust me, I know all about it. With my mental problems, I have a VERY hard time managing my own life, and on the two times I tried to live alone, things went VERY badly. However, I did manage to hold my job down and pay my rent regardless. I might not have been able to do anything else but those two things came first.

People like to make excuses. I'm not living in some perfect rose colored world...I'm got tons of problems too.






Sinergy -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 9:02:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

And then once they're gone we can turn on the rest of the useless people, eh? My, before we know it they're be just you and I left and what a utopia that will be!



As Douglas Adams so sagely pointed out, when the Golgafrinchams put the useless third of their population on a space ship, including the telephone sanitizers, and sent them to crash land on a planet in the unfashionable arm of the Milky Way, their entire population died of an infection contracted from a telephone.

On the other hand, these people caused the Neanderthal to die out and fail to evolve, and became the dominant population on the planet.

I am not sure whether my point is that even the useless third of a population are good to have around, or that everything works out the way it works out, but...

Just me, could be wrong, but there ya go.

Sinergy





SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Whilst you are fast asleep in your bed... (7/2/2007 9:04:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
People like to make excuses. I'm not living in some perfect rose colored world...I'm got tons of problems too.


that, my dear, is the understatement of the century




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