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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:18:24 AM   
GeekyGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
I wasn't saying we should actually neuter people, lol...I was just making the point that some peopel aren't very useful

Ok.  I was hoping you didn't mean that but it can be a slippery slope from thinking some people are useless to saying they shouldn't reproduce. 
quote:

other than providing my fellow board members with someone to dog on from time to time and make personal attacks against

I certainly never "attacked" you and I don't think anyone else leveled any words against you any harsher than the ones you used against "worthless" people.  I think it's very interesting when subjects like this come up and everyone's real, heartfelt opinions come out.  It certainly doesn't have to become hateful and mean.......luci


I wasn't implying that YOU made a personal attack, Luci.

However, I do get a lot of attacks aimed at me. I make my statements in broad, general ways, not aiming at specific posters. I don't say, "Poster X, you're an ass."


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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:21:24 AM   
queencaliph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

It always amuses me that when this kind of post comes up all those who comment will invariably see the negative factor mentioned in.....others, never themselves. Why is that I ask myself ?

Now speaking for myself I would have to say I am a pretty useless human being, I dont do much, dont go anywhere much, have a low opinion of many that I meet and I cant see that anyone will be much affected when I take the final motorcycle ride into the sky. I am reasonably content and if I could play the piano better I  might even stretch to being happy, now and then !
Am I the only one that can be so brutally honest about myself ?


Well of course not....... its just that the rest of us are perfect.

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:23:01 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Then there is another group, which crosses over with the two earlier mentioned - the alcoholics and drug addicts. They dont work because they cant as no one would hire them, and in the main dont want to work either, preferring the haze of substance abuse to reality. But then, when I have got to know these people, they are hardly useless either, and are hooked on whatever it is because of mental illness, abuse or some other trauma which took them down that road in the first place - a reality they couldnt face which booze or drugs hid from them for a while.

Thank you for saying this, LadyEllen.  I've been open about my own battle with drug addiction here.  At no time, was I completely "useless" and, as a matter of fact, I did work during most of my years spent addicted.  Another thread I posted on awhile back that reminds me of this is http://www.collarchat.com/m_1088928/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm 

We got into a debate about whether or not "crackheads" should be sterilized.  Alot of the same arguments used there could be applied here on this thread, I suppose.  The world is full of people I don't agree with and who I think need to make many changes to be what I would consider "productive" members of society.  Thank God I don't have the power to enforce my beliefs on them, however, because I certainly wouldn't want theirs foisted upon me.  Anytime someone considers another living, breathing human being totally "worthless," I really have to feel sorry for the person feeling that.  It must be sad to live in such a harsh, judgmental, non-compassionate sphere of the world.  But then, I suppose I'm one of those "useless" bleeding-hearts............luci


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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:24:06 AM   
instynctive


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Mistress NoName.. this is completely OT, but I love your avatar.. :-)

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:33:41 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
I wasn't implying that YOU made a personal attack, Luci

I know you weren't, GeekyGirl.  I just wanted to clarify that I didn't. 
quote:

However, I do get a lot of attacks aimed at me. I make my statements in broad, general ways, not aiming at specific posters. I don't say, "Poster X, you're an ass."

But that's what you encouraged Erin to do - speak specifically to you.  Some people do, some don't.  Sometimes zealous debates DO turn into attacks but I prefer it when they don't.  A good, vigorous debate between folks with very different attitudes is always cool unless someone starts down the road of "I'm right, you're wrong.  You must change to fit my way."  Then, that's the worst..........luci

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:35:53 AM   
GeekyGirl


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I agree Luci. I don't try to make others believe as I do...it's enough to voice my opinion and I don't form any opinions on the people themselves...just opinions on their viewpoints.

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:36:24 AM   
Termyn8or


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This is not a can of worms, it is a 55 gallon drum.

I am useless. I fix TVs. Big TVs, not the little kind to get news and weather on, the kind you numb your brain with watching the ridiculous movies they come out with these days. All in all, I really believe the impact of what I do for a living on society is generally negative. Exceptions exist. When I worked in a semi-affluent suburb I was requested more than once to remove the tuner from a TV, I mean a new one. They didn't want their kids watching anything that wasn't on a tape or laserdisk which of course they would supply. If I had kids I would probably do the same.

What taxes I do pay winds up helping our oil hungry war machine. I would like to find a way to take from the govermnment, but for now I must settle for giving them as little as possible.

Now I am not always useless. I have done some serious house repairs. It is rewarding to me and I want to do more of it. Work is very flexible with my hours. I can make time. I have designed and installed a central heating system where none had existed before, took me a half a day to figure out how to put in a central AC system. When I rewire a house it is safe, which I think is fairly important.

For only short times in my life does home remodeling actually pay my bills, usually it is fixing the brain drainers. I would like to do more remodeling. I am not too bad, I like custom, challenging work, in fact my business card says "If you've been told it can't be done, we welcome your call". I am not in it to do roofing and drywall. Of course that is an "important" part of the job, but there are alot of people faster than me, that is not where my earning power lies. The drywallers come in with their taping guns and do in a day what would take me a week. But point them to my table saw, router and miter saw, they would not be the best choice to make custom moulding. Similarly you do not let roofers do the wiring.

The fact that my time is valuable makes their time valuable. If I pay two guys like $600 for two short day's work, it may seem like they are getting a windfall, but that is not so. While they mud and tape, I might be in the basement bending conduit or something like that.

Also I think a certain contingent of useless people has gone unmentioned. Remember corporate downsizing ? If they can downsize and end up making more money, someone was useless. In fact whoever 'upsized' the place to that point in the first place was useless. Yup, that may well mean the big boss, the guy with the 40' yacht and the spacious mansion in the hills. Could be useless.

Public assistance is no real measure of uselessness. Let's say a schoolteacher gets injured and is now on disability. He or she can't work, but not only paid into the system, was effective at their job and liked it. With many families existing with both Parents working, they wind up watching their kids between time school lets out and their folks get home. They are a positive influence, help them with their homework and such. Is that useless ?

Drastically contrastic are those who made food stamps (now card) nessecary. Let me get this straight. No matter how fucked up the government is, one can walk in the office there and get money to feed their kids if they're down and out. But you can't give them money because they'll spend it on booze or drugs. What kind of people would let their kids go hungry for a buzz ? I think we need to refer to the title of this thread for the word, it's right there.

What if your Walmart greeter is retired, likes people in general, possibly lonely sometimes, bored, but wants to buy a boat in which to go fishing ? Or what if their pay from Walmart goes to pay their child support or alimony so that the pay from their "real" job can go to support their new family ?

They say judge not lest ye be judged. While I agree, it is not like you think. The operative word here is 'lest'. I judge everybody, I admit it. And so do you, whether you admit it or not. What that first sentence says is really don't go judging people without expecting them to judge you. You judge me every time I strike a key in this 'post' window. Some of you have a negative opinion of me, that is fine. But I'll be damned for what I am.

Ever hear the song "You want fries with that ?", I think it's Toby Keith, not sure. A full grown Man working at a fast food window. On the surface it might seem the guy had no ambition, but you never know. To really know you must know how they think. Did they take this job because of some extreme strife dealt to them by life, and it is just a stop-gap measure to keep their credit alive ?

The only way to tell is to know. People's impact on those around them is oft ignored. I used to be a bad influence on everyone, and once I uttered those words, in jest, I didn't like them. They rang too true. I am different now. "NO, DO NOT go shoot your ex, hit my door, I did it last month, there's still a panel left in perfect condition. He didn't get all the way through it like I did but he did calm down. It is strange how in some Men hurting knuckles can ease the pain in their heart, but that's the way it is. The door is scrap anyway, so I let him pound away on it. Of course them days are over when I pull $300 out of my pocket for a new door.

If you're starting to think I have a pretty interesting life, you got that right.

I think my point is that uselessness depends alot more on what is not readily seen. We have been taught not to look beyond the surface of issues, but some of us have managed to unlearn it. Kudos to everyone who has.

Be back later.

T

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:38:03 AM   
GeekyGirl


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Tim Mcgraw sings the song.

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 11:43:26 AM   
instynctive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

What if your Walmart greeter is retired, likes people in general, possibly lonely sometimes, bored, but wants to buy a boat in which to go fishing ? Or what if their pay from Walmart goes to pay their child support or alimony so that the pay from their "real" job can go to support their new family ?


My original statement was rather tongue-in-cheek, regarding WalMart greeters... but if they are getting paid to stand/sit in front and smile and greet people as they come in, then mayb they shouldn't be slumped against the wall, off to the side, picking their nose or just staring blankly into space...



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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 12:02:09 PM   
seeksfemslave


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It has been stated.....
In the same way that we can condemn the psychotic serial killer for his deeds, but do so with the understanding that he had little control over what he did in the sense that the rest of us have control. That doesnt excuse or minimise his crimes, but it is useful in deciding his fate.

There is no way of knowing how much control a given psychotic person really has...is there? 
When any element of deviousness or attempts to evade capture are involved then the person is not psychotic IMO...but is, for many of the more horrendous crimes, definately of no use

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 12:51:37 PM   
cjenny


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Hey seeks, can I ride pillion on that motorcycle?



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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 12:54:10 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Also I think a certain contingent of useless people has gone unmentioned. Remember corporate downsizing ? If they can downsize and end up making more money, someone was useless. In fact whoever 'upsized' the place to that point in the first place was useless. Yup, that may well mean the big boss, the guy with the 40' yacht and the spacious mansion in the hills. Could be useless.



In my life as an aerospace engineer, I survived 3 large-scale layoffs at the company I was working at.

These layoffs generally followed the following modus operandi.

1)  Lay off anybody who actually does any work, this would be RF engineers, astrophysicists, chemists, satellite engineers, sensing specialists, draftspeople, hardware engineers, systems engineers, software engineers, etc.

2)  Keep the entire management structure intact.  If possible (read:  if the contract is "cost plus") then add a second layer of managerial nitwits to manage the existing structure of managerial nitwits.

3)  Have the managerial nitwits send strident memos between managerial nitwits explaining why no real work is getting done.

Sinergy

p.s.  The reason I survived is I was the guy who kept the computers running which the managerial idiots used to send nasty missives to each other. 

p.p.s.  When I had to order a part so that the computers could be up and running, my purchase requisition had to get signed by 8-10 layers of management.  I came to the rapid conclusion that a bullet between the eyes of 6-8 of these people would not cause a moments work slowdown.


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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 1:44:52 PM   
Termyn8or


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Sin, (if I may call you that for short, kinda like it), you have described it pretty well.

Thing is I think we have useless people all the way to the top. Who thought up this shit ? Even now look at how many levels of management are in place, versus the efficient foreign corporations. Whether or not they use slave labor is not the issue. They do not waste as much.

And we haven't even touched on the government yet. A bit surprising actually, but if we explore that zone I am sure this might become the thread to end all threads. I won't even try to start it. I think this whole thing is about something else, and maybe it should stay that way. In the US we have actually come to expect the government to fuck up everything they do. We expect product recalls despite heavy regulations. We expect to throw anything that breaks in the garbage unless it cost alot of money. And soon, soon after the warranty.

Back in the past, there was a time when each and every member of society had to pull their own weight. My Dad says people in cities are living off of each other, and every time I think of that, the more I think he is right. As time goes by I find it harder and harder to fight 68 years of wisdom. Of course he has other opinions which shall never see the light of collarchat.

We have come to expect things to be as they are, that is because we are raised in this environment. I expect more, from myself, my family and chosen family. If everyone did the same, we might start to dig, just a little bit, out of this fucking rut we seem to be in. Face it, useless people used to DIE. Of course we are painfully aware of the fact that things have changed.

I require my ilk to try to do better in life. I don't put up with whining about how they can't afford something. I don't put up with any whining, and if there are things, bad things, but they are not whining, just explaining the situation, don't expect to get out of here without some form of advice. If not, why the fuck bother telling me about it ?

Perhaps I am trying to more useful in the rest of life because my job is so fucking useless. Helping people empty their minds. And it is working. It (for a mechanic) is getting to the point where it is hard to explin to people that if I put a transmission in your car I am not automatically responsible for your next brake job. At work, somebody calls and I hear the phone guy, they obviously want to schedule a pickup. "Is it a floor model or a table modfel ?". Then a few seconds later I hear "Well does it sit on the floor or on a shelf ?". Now let me get this straight, these people supply the money to pay me, and they are that stupid ? Geez.

And present company excluded, I have found rich people to be way more ignorant than "the masses". The rich could not survive without their money. When the commoner actually wakes up to that fact you will see a shift in power. Right now anything can be bought, but that could change. Overnight actually.

My worth doesn't stem from the fact that I am the one to help my people, loan them money, bail them out when they get a ticket. If the shit hits the fan I will be an integral part of a group that survives. And that is true, we do not call police. We send people with clubs, camshafts and cannons. I can handle life in the big city. And when things get bad, I think I will know who my friends are, at least I hope.

Time will tell.

T

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 2:08:49 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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Oh, I think a large swath of the population is useless. If I had a choice in the matter I'd never interact with them at all.

What makes someone useless, well how to put it in words........

A person lacking the desire to pull there own weight in society. (Notice the desire portion).

So, who would fall in that category.

1.People that live off their parents, without doing anything to alleve that situation.
2. People that live off of others work without adding anything to the overall product. This could be a rich CEO, or a Union worker, or a bad supervisor, or a good number of government employees.(This is not to say all those groups are bad, just examples of cases that are more prone to bad workers).
3. In the past moreso than now because of reform. People that live, and plan to continue living off government benefits, when they are capable of supporting themselves.
(And someone said in a previous post that no one on welfare has kids for the money. Well, that is bullshit. I grew up on welfare, my whole family was on welfare for the most part, and that ascertion is pure crap. See, it's true you can't reasonably support a child with the money you receive on welfare, but you can neglect your child, and sell your food stamps, for beer money, and leave your kids alone and starving for days at a time. So, that is how it is done. Whore mom, gets the check, kids get nothing, my goes on party spree, drags home loser drunk fuck. Etc... That was the welfare system of the 80's

Now, this situation doesn't exist that much anymore(at least I don't hang around people on welfare much anymore), with the welfare reform, but in the 80's it sure 100% guaranteed existed. How do I know because some members of my extended family were doing it that's how. ) And they would classify as useless, by the way.

4. People that make a career of thievery.
5. And on a personal level people that abuse their kids(don't care about the reason).
6. And of course, the cold blooded murders, rapists. etc....


I consider those people useless, and if I had my way, I don't think I'd kill them, but I certainly wouldn't help them or feel remorse for them.

Now, I did at one time have this notion that everyone wanted to pull their own weight, and contribute. This is not the case, for all the bleeding hearts, there are a good number of people that just want to leech, and that's not because of disability, or addiction necessarily. It is because they have no qualms about it.

Sorry, I've tried to drag useless people up and get them to do something to many times, with zero success. Some of these were drug addicts, some were not. And I even know some drug addicts that work in full time jobs for years, so I don't think that is necessarily a hard indicator of uselessness. Rather the lack of understanding that it is wrong to live off another persons labor as an objective, and a deliberate course of action  to live off others is what is wrong and makes one useless.

That could be the president, to a crack whore. That is probably why I see a lot more people being useless, than others. It isn't a 100% about the bank account balance.

Anyway, doubt people will like that. LOL, but it's the truth as I've experienced it.





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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 2:40:18 PM   
dragone


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Just a brief note. Hitler had the perfect solution...the ovens.

To define useless people...they are life unworthy of life.  No bank account, like Anuld...you are useless; good for nothing, spoiled meat.

Money, defines your use....your position to make money, like Anuld...defines if you are life, worthy of life.

Anything less, you are for harvesting.

Just take a look at some of these profiles on CM; read what the adverage 'whore' considers worth her/his time.

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 3:10:15 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone
Just a brief note. Hitler had the perfect solution...the ovens.
To define useless people...they are life unworthy of life.  No bank account, like Anuld...you are useless; good for nothing, spoiled meat.
Money, defines your use....your position to make money, like Anuld...defines if you are life, worthy of life.
Anything less, you are for harvesting.
Just take a look at some of these profiles on CM; read what the average 'whore' considers worth her/his time.

Not really sure whether you grasp how this post "comes across" Dragone but to say the least it has its unpleasant side !!!!!!

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 3:14:43 PM   
Quivver


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I would first have to start by asking myself what I find ~useful~.....
Then again useful could be taken from society’s point of view rather then my own small view.
What gets rewarded?  What punished? 
Who is influential enough to get the job of picking what is and isnt ~useful~?


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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 3:24:28 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Quivver, you are the thinking man's crumpet, ie sex symbol lol

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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 3:55:31 PM   
stella40


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Personally I feel I have a reasonably balanced opinion of human life. It all has some value, even if it smells, or if it has bits missing or it's an odd colour, if it is of a different sexuality or if it is malfunctioning, etc etc etc.

You know, the popular media would have us all believe that we are young, beautiful, productive and profitable members of society even though I would dare to suggest that the vast majority of us actually fall outside this stereotype in one way or another.

Everyone is someone to somebody - this is something I truly believe in.

I strongly adhere to the concept of TA or transactional analysis developed by American psychiatrist Eric Berne in the 1950's. We are all living our lives to a script, it might be a winning script, it might be a loser's script, but we are living our lives to some sort of script.

I've read here that some people consider those who are useless those people who have 'no desire to pull their own weight'. We can generalise and point to people living on welfare - but how can we be sure that these people truly have no desire to pull their own weight?

Is it not the case that these people are no longer considered desirable in the employment market? Or for that matter they are part of a welfare benefits system which expects them to be grateful and happy with what they are given, to shut up and just keep out of the way and not make any additional demands on the system?

There are always two sides to every story. I also feel that a very good way of education is through integration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came


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RE: what makes someone "useless" - 7/2/2007 4:10:31 PM   
velvetears


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i think people can engage in useless endeavors, think useless thoughts, perform in useless jobs, get into useless slumps at times in their lives, but no human being in it's entirety is useless

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