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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 2:59:20 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent.
I found the following letter in today's Guardian informative:
I reject so-called honour killings. I reject kidnapping a journalist and strapping explosives to his waist. I reject burning flags because an ageing author received an award. I reject parking a car full of explosives on Haymarket. I am a Muslim. I believe in God and I believe that Muhammed (may peace be upon him) is his last messenger. And I also agree with Andrew Marr who said "it is still an incredible stroke of fortune to be born British".

An individual point of view selected to try to assuage the concern that no doubt is finally beginning to penetrate even the knuckle headed thinking represented by the Guardian outloook on race and multicultural problems is too little too late.

As has been pointed out in another post in this thread we have heard nothing but rationalisation, diversion and general  purpose excuses applied to the terrorist acts aimed at innocent civilians world wide by islamic fundamentalists.
Historically Islam is not a religion of Peace.

We musn't upset the Muslim community.
All Muslims are not terrorists.
Virtual silence on book burning play banning and fatwahs.
Not much said about dishonest immigration practices relating to arranged marriages.
Not a lot said about honour killings.

The tide is turning NG, you are on the wrong side of the flow of water and it remains to be seen whether to switch the metaphor we have a hard or soft landing.

I rather hope hard to totally discredit PC Liberalism for at least a generation. Unfortunately that means suffering....for the innocent....again !

A possible scenario for a really hard landing is conflict between India/Pakistan escalating to a major War with consequent conflict in those European countries that have large Hindu/Muslim communities.

How would you deal with that NG? Quote a letter from the Guardian saying how deplorable it all is ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 7/3/2007 3:20:18 PM >

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 3:09:27 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
LadyEllen, you're right.
Let's just wait till they use a nuclear device on us first.

Of course I'm right - whatever gave you the impression I might not be?

You know, however mad some of these people are in foreign governments, I'm pretty sure they have the sense to not try anything like that, regardless of the guff they spout about jihad and the apocalypse etc. to please their people. And thats what theyre doing, pulling the puppet strings to maintain their own position and power by giving their people what they want to hear.

And as for some bunch of nutters terrorist cell letting off a nuke amid us - thats a lot more likely, but what are we going to do about it should they manage to get hold of one? Although I doubt that even the nuttiest foreign leader would permit them to get one, for the reasons above - they'd be held responsible and counter attacked into oblivion. E


LadyE: why do you believe that Islamic based governments will find it politically possible to stop fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups from obtaining nuclear weapons?
To try to do so is acting rationally?....certainly
Trying to do what is possible?...........almost certainly not.
Does not the President of Pakistan have to tread very carefully when trying to contain Islamic fundamentalism. Even then riots ensued when the police over there arrested lots of "terrorists"
That occured within the last few months. 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 7/3/2007 3:15:02 PM >

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 3:35:47 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Seeks - you know my views on the whole multicultural thing already, so I'll leave NG to deal with your prior post (21) aside from saying that I hold it responsible for a lot of the problems we're now experiencing; one cannot possibly build a united society if one proposes to support the means of disunity.

As for the letter posted by NG - isnt this what we need more of, rather than to condemn it and dismiss it as unrepresentative? What we need right now is the ordinary everyday Muslims to feel supported and yes, protected in expressing themselves in spite of the fear of backlash from the hotheads amongst them, because my feeling is that right now they are a lot more fearful of those hotheads than any of us are. Again, multiculturalism is a problem here because it has isolated them from society as a whole and contained them in a mini culture from which there is little escape.

Now, onto your following post. Yes, I do believe that if as we are told, it is the lunatics running certain countries who are supporting the terror groups, that it is both possible and necessary for them to maintain control over what they get up to.

As for Pakistan, we should remember that "the general" as Bush referred to him, is only in charge because he seized power in order to obviate the Islamicist rule that the prior election would have resulted in. What this means is that yes, Pakistan is full of lunatics, most of them from the semi-educated masses whose semi-education has been funded by the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia, but also that Pakistan has enough intelligent people to not allow the country to fall into their hands entirely. Whilst it might for some reason be politically expedient to have the Pakistani masses rioting for someone, it is certainly not expedient to not have control over them by whoever that might be (clue given earlier). Nothing is quite as simple as it appears.

E

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 3:42:57 PM   
CrimsonMoan


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From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		Elle let Popeye do his thing. I honestly think he like to rile people up whether he actually means it or no and if he does, when someone decides that hey white peopel are whats really wrong with the US let just eradicate them all, you gonna offer yourself up to the chopping block? Comments liek yours are the reasons bigots, racists, etc still think they are right and keep spreading the word. Why because they know at leats a handful of people agree with them behind closed doors. Yeah lets drop a bomb and then what? you know what does? It makes the bad guys right about every piece of shit lie they spout about the american goverment and military.Cuz people aren't gonna see the bodies of terrorist. They are gonna see mother's and their children, their bodies strew about like broken china. That will not win the war, it will make the war last longer because those who were on our side will suddenly want vengence for their loved ones.

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 3:50:43 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Crimson - I see what youre saying I really do. In the end, everyone is entitled to their views - but our views are in constant reformation (or at least they should be) as we experience the world, so its vital for all of us to advance our views and arguments because thats one way we can reform our views. Popeye isnt a bad guy, of that I'm sure - and like a few others here with whom I argue, I learn as much from him as I hope he and they learn from me.

And ultimately, I have debated and defeated real, genuine neo nazis. Not pretenders but really nasty, violent people. There is no one on this site that comes anywhere near that level. And you know what? That doesnt make me some super being, it just means that I managed to change their views by expanding their experiences without lecturing, admonishing, humiliating or fighting them.

E

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 4:37:33 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		LadyE: I found your post  23 a little opaque but it is past my bedtime so I expect its my fault.
I think the pres. of Pakistan is a very shrewd man but my point was that events and influences in his country could make it impossible for him to maintain power and contain fundamentalism.

You said that Islamic regimes, Pres. Mubarrak (spelling?) is a devout Muslim, would and could stop fundamentalists obtaining nuclear devices. I beg to differ.
That is the point I was trying to make.

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 4:45:32 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: I found your post  23 a little opaque but it is past my bedtime so I expect its my fault.
I think the pres. of Pakistan is a very shrewd man but my point was that events and influences in his country could make it impossible for him to maintain power and contain fundamentalism.

You said that Islamic regimes, Pres. Mubarrak (spelling?) is a devout Muslim, would and could stop fundamentalists obtaining nuclear devices. I beg to differ.
That is the point I was trying to make.


No, I didnt say Musharaf (Pakistan) was a devout Muslim at all - I said he is likely one of those intelligent enough not to allow the country to become an Islamicist state.

Yes he has problems controlling his population, but someone else has control of his population, dont worry - and that someone else, whilst it might be useful for them to have Pakistan in chaos are sensible enough to manage the situation to the ends they seek - which isnt an Islamicist state, and isnt some bunch of ill educated nutters running round with a nuke.

E

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 7:19:01 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I mean who really cares about Pakistan or Egypt anyway?




Ooo!  Oooo!  Ooo!

I know this one.

Who are Pakistanis and Egyptians, Alex?

Sinergy

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 8:32:25 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

Elle let Popeye do his thing. I honestly think he like to rile people up whether he actually means it or no and if he does, when someone decides that hey white peopel are whats really wrong with the US let just eradicate them all, you gonna offer yourself up to the chopping block? Comments liek yours are the reasons bigots, racists, etc still think they are right and keep spreading the word. Why because they know at leats a handful of people agree with them behind closed doors. Yeah lets drop a bomb and then what? you know what does? It makes the bad guys right about every piece of shit lie they spout about the american goverment and military.Cuz people aren't gonna see the bodies of terrorist. They are gonna see mother's and their children, their bodies strew about like broken china. That will not win the war, it will make the war last longer because those who were on our side will suddenly want vengence for their loved ones.


Wrong, Nuclear weapons make "the bad guys" very dead.
And there's no-one around to see people broken like china because everything gets vaporized.
Look at the havok we could create if they attack us again.
"We're going to wait 6 months till ramadan and take out a muslim country."
They'd be scrambling all around.
"And no more immigration to Western countries from muslim countries."
You don't "reason" with people like that you kill them.
They want to go to "allah" anyway so we'd be doing a good thing.
If we nuked Pakistan or better yet Saudi Arabia do you think they'd attack us again?
They attack us again you nuke *two* muslim countries!
Again, you don't tell them which two beforehand.
They'd actually be running out of countries!
Al qeada's own people would be going after them.
Bush has been too much of a pussy in this area.
We have nuclear submarines, use them!
If all Bush is going to do if we're attacked again is form another beauracracy do you think that'll stop al qeada?
That's how you deal with those fuckin animals.Nuke em, anyone left you enslave them. Put them in salt mines with salt pork to eat and no more water than is neccessary to keep them alive for one more day's work.
Hell, I'd take one for a live lawn jockey, chain him to the front porch and give him a bowl of rice a day and a good fucking beating and a bible to read.
Anyone who thinks that they're going to stop if we're *nice* to them has shit on the brain.
Now, can I hear "Popeye for President?"

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/3/2007 8:47:42 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I was just looking in YahooNews.
One headline reads; "Diverse group in British Bombing."
LMAO!

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 1:38:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE: I found your post  23 a little opaque but it is past my bedtime so I expect its my fault.
You said that Islamic regimes, Pres. Mubarrak (spelling?) is a devout Muslim, would and could stop fundamentalists obtaining nuclear devices. I beg to differ.
That is the point I was trying to make.


No, I didnt say Musharaf (Pakistan) was a devout Muslim at all - I said he is likely one of those intelligent enough not to allow the country to become an Islamicist state.
Yes he has problems controlling his population, but someone else has control of his population, dont worry - and that someone else, whilst it might be useful for them to have Pakistan in chaos are sensible enough to manage the situation to the ends they seek - which isnt an Islamicist state, and isnt some bunch of ill educated nutters running round with a nuke.
E

Told you I was tired: Mubarrak runs Egypt NO?
Anyway LadyE one of us is missing the point. Musharif is a devout Muslim, probably not a rabid fundamentalist but he supports an Islamic state. Anything else and he would be out on his arse pronto !

.No matter how intelligent/pragmatic/shrewd he is he has to contain Islamic fundamentalism and maintain "good" relations with and support from the US.This may not be possible.
Was not a Pakistani scientist caught  giving info. on nuclear weapons, to Iran I think. The point is that support for revolutionary regimes exists at the highest levels in Pakistan and fundamentalist activity is widespread. eg those schools that some carrying out terroist acts in the UK had visited.

Therefore, I repeat, that it is quite likely that a fundamentalist group will get their hands on a nuclear weapon of some sort and I do not understand why you are so confident that this will not happen.

Incidently when I wrote about the problems of containing extremism in Pakistan I did not know that there was a major confrontation ongoing as I wrote.
To be proved right so quickly cheers me up a bit lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 7/4/2007 1:42:41 AM >

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 2:02:15 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Another point LadyE: you have repeated many times that multi culturalism has failed because it encourages fragmentation and lack of cohesion in a society.
I agree that outcome has happened, but your explanation puts the cart before the horse. The large numbers emigrating to the UK from the Indian sub continent were and are so culturally different that separation was/is inevitable. Multi culturalism was a tolerant response to that difference by insipid misguided usually left leaning other worldly pseudo and actual intellectuals.
Now you may say that tolerance is a good thing but I say look at the mess we have got into over Law /Order by being tolerant to serious criminals. The only absolute truth I know of is that there are no absolute truths. lol

Thus all the MC approach did was to encourage what would have happened anyway.
If you want proof see how the cultural map of the US is drawn. Jews in say New York/ Florida. Vikings in Minnesota lol
Russians in and around Dallas I believe etc etc.

These patterns were laid down long before multi culturalism became fashionable NO?

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 2:02:35 AM   
becca333


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

A press release from a hitherto unknown neo-nazi group was delivered simultaneously this morning to the British Home Office, Scotland Yard and the headquarters of the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, warning that it planned reprisals directly targeting Muslims should terrorist attacks continue.

The release, said to have been issued by a group calling itself GB88, mentioned specific threats against Mosques in all parts of Britain, and vowed to “level” undisclosed targets during Friday prayers should its demands for an immediate halt to attacks in the UK and against British forces overseas not be met. The statement is also believed to have called for the internment of all Muslims in Great Britain within the next month and in the meantime for them to be placed under house arrest, pending what it ominously described as “processing”.

……………………………………………………………………………………….

Fortunately, the above “news story” is totally fictional. So why did I bother to write it and post it?

Well, I’m pretty much sure it will get a lot of attention, and maybe quite a few comments too.

But mainly, my point was to ask the question as to whether the radical elements of Islam have shot the religion to which they claim to belong, squarely in the foot? The way I see it, many of us in the west had a lot of sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians. Many of us had a lot of sympathy for the Iraqis under Saddam, and many more strongly disagreed with the strategic blunder that was the invasion and is the occupation. Yet I wonder how much sympathy we can maintain, when it is not those responsible who suffer radical Islamic reprisals but we the innocent ordinary people?

The “news story” I wrote is meant to turn the situation around, by way of innocent ordinary Muslims becoming the target for reprisals by our own hot heads. Do we see the similarities between my fictional neo-nazis and the radical Islamics or do we choose sides? Do we in some way sympathise with the nazi threats or even support them as “getting our own back” whilst condemning the Islamic radicals, or reject the hatred and violence of both sides? And, do we give any consideration to the antagonism and injustices felt by either side as not so much a justification, but an explanation for their words and actions?

E


If this were true the Muslim extremists would celebrate - it'd give them a lot more angry young muslims to politicise.

The terrorist question isn't an easy one, and I don't know the answer, but we need to look at what's going on from the right perspective before we can begin to find a solution.

When we see the bombings - London, Bali, World Trade Centre, and so on - places or people in the West are the targets of the bombs.  But we are not the target audience. 

Islam is going through great changes, the majority of muslims are, or would like to be, moderate.  Many are moving towards the West, or making changes in their form of Islam to cope with today's world.  This is incredibly threatening to the extremists, and they respond as so many other extremists have over time - demonise a group to blame (the way Nazis picked the jews.  Well, the way practically everyone picked the jews at some stage in history), and get back to 'the good old days'.  Pol Pot drove his nation back a century or more, and killed millions.  The KKK, strange religious sects living in bunkers in mountains, all fundamentalists are pretty much the same. They are desperate for the power to control their group, and to bring the rest of their particular sect back under strict control - as did the Taliban.

Fundamentalist muslim terrorists have killed countless thousands, tens of thousands, and more.  And the majority of the victims have been other muslims.  Moderates.  To force others back under stricter control.

Bombs in the West aren't designed to take us over, or force any particular changes here.  Whatever we do, they'll use.  The target audience are other muslims.  It's to get brownie points - "Look at us, how powerful we are, we're winners!  We're teaching the hated enemy!  Now do what we say."  If our response is to be stricter, it'll cause resentment among innocent muslims in the West, and make a fertile ground for more converts.  If we try to be nice and understanding about it all, it'll be seen as weakness.

I have no idea of the way to go from here, we need to find a way to free the moderates and tone the extremists down, remove their power base, whatever.  But we must not see ALL muslims as one huge, consolidated enemy.  Because if that's how we treat them, they will be.

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 2:25:40 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Yes indeed Seeks, Mubarrak runs Egypt, though we were talking about Pakistan.....

My advice to you and everyone else, is not to take what appears to be occurring to be all that is occurring. Musharaf (Pakistan) might indeed be a devout Muslim (but then devout Muslims are what we need, 'cause the nutters sure aint), but to be fair it wouldnt matter if he were Buddhist - he'd still appear to be a devout Muslim, because thats what suits.

Right. Now here's my lowdown on Pakistan - this is Top Secret FYEO. Pakistan is situated right next door to Iran. The Iranians would just love it, if Pakistan followed down their road...... but the west doesnt want this. Also Saudi Arabia doesnt want this - whilst they will join with the Iranians one of these days, Saudi Arabia doesnt want to be a subsidiary state in the forthcoming New Persian Empire. Alongside that, Saudi Arabia likes to sell oil to we in the west - theyre not our friends or anything close to our friends, but since we share a common foreign policy aim (the limitation of Iran) we cooperate in keeping Pakistan as it is. We prop up the administration, whilst the Saudis school Pakistani kids to their own tastes rather than tastes sympathetic to Iranian ideas. The result should be to cause anti-Iranian feeling, to prevent the Pakistani population from taking up Iranian style Islam and to cause general disunity which keeps the population fighting one another rather than doing anything worse in respect of the common foreign policy. At the same time, the Pakistani administration has a reason to build enormous forces - which are equipped by western firms, and this throws the Indians next door off balance too and causes them to divert funds for growth into defence. Everyone wins. We also see why a Pakistani might seek to sell nuclear data to Iran.

Except of course that you are sort of right about some things. The Saudis are not our friends in any shape or form. We cant do much about the way they pursue their foreign policy right now though - we are far too dependent on their oil; we cant even investigate criminal matters regarding them (BAE). And whilst we share the common aim of keeping Iran under control and cooperate in this, the Saudis have their own aims quite separate from that, which they are also pursuing in Pakistan - the spreading of Wahabi fundamentalism, whereby they can fight us by proxy, using those whom they have indoctrinated in other countries (including our own). This too serves two purposes - first, the Saudis have a modern field army spread worldwide to recruit new members and to carry out attacks on us to please their own people (who also hate us), and second it provides a constant reminder to our leaders of who is running the protection racket in town these days, and not to go doing anything foolish like getting away from oil. The one thing which would ruin their whole position in this, would be to allow one group of the nutters they run, to let off a nuclear device on us, and they would therefore ensure this didnt even appear as a possibility on the horizon.

E

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 2:31:09 AM   
becca333


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Status: offline 		It's all a very delicate balancing act.

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 2:51:49 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Another point LadyE: you have repeated many times that multi culturalism has failed because it encourages fragmentation and lack of cohesion in a society.
I agree that outcome has happened, but your explanation puts the cart before the horse. The large numbers emigrating to the UK from the Indian sub continent were and are so culturally different that separation was/is inevitable. Multi culturalism was a tolerant response to that difference by insipid misguided usually left leaning other worldly pseudo and actual intellectuals.
Now you may say that tolerance is a good thing but I say look at the mess we have got into over Law /Order by being tolerant to serious criminals. The only absolute truth I know of is that there are no absolute truths. lol

Thus all the MC approach did was to encourage what would have happened anyway.
If you want proof see how the cultural map of the US is drawn. Jews in say New York/ Florida. Vikings in Minnesota lol
Russians in and around Dallas I believe etc etc.

These patterns were laid down long before multi culturalism became fashionable NO?


There was an interesting programme on BBC Radio 4 recently that looked at the whole MC approach - apparently it arose from the notion that it would be better not to integrate the immigrants that came to Europe after WWII, since then they would be prepared to go back to their home cultures once the requirement for their services was over. So they were enabled to retain their cultures and languages and kept separate from the natives except insofar as mixing was necessary for the jobs they had come to perform.

Now this is where we let the horses bolt, to continue your phrasing - because of course the immigrants didnt go home and didnt want to go home and have since become ever more separate by way of governmental support to do so. When these people started coming here, they came here in the immediate aftermath of Empire when for however much they disliked our rule, they still appreciated British culture as an aspiration. If we had integrated from the get go, I believe we would never have gotten ourselves into the situation we now find ourselves. Its now too late for that, and this is why I seek some new way of rebuilding our society, because the old model is lost and right now so are we. That I can say "we" and not really know who "we" are as I write it, speaks volumes.

Now, of course its pretty natural for folk who share attributes to end up living near one another, though I doubt that the US model of settlement is particularly relevant to our circumstances. Indeed it makes sense in some ways for that to be enabled for first generation immigrants, so that they have mutual support in a strange land - I think we all underestimate the difficulties of immigration. But there is also a definite agenda to all this too, which is driven by the attitudes of the natives - where more work is needed, because much of the reason for ethnic minorities taking over a neighbourhood is down to the natives moving out if so much as one ethnic minority family moves in - before long the whole neighbourhood is populated with that ethnic minority. And there is work to be done amongst those minorities too - quite frankly I dont give a monkey's if Hindus hate Pakistanis, this is Britain and youre British so best make a choice.

E

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 4:17:35 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		LadyE: you write a good essay from the structural point of view but when looked at closely your arguments rest on assertion only. For example Hindus hate Muslims but this is Britain so best make a choice. They have. They hate one another.

Since Radio4 is a hotbed of multiculturalist thinking it is hardly likely that they will broadcast anything to show how their position has failed totally. What they will do is to try to shift and slide and add riders and "if onlys" to make changes that seem to indicate they were right all along.

Worst of all you keep repeating the same point....any existing power in an Islamic country would not allow a "bunch of nutters" to obtain and use a nuclear device.
My point is that it almost certainly will prove impossible to stop the BoN's given the widespread fundamentalist support. Surprisingly enough I dont even think they are a bunch of nutters either. From their standpoint negotiation wont work, either with the West or with "moderate" or different sect Islamic regimes.

They are "nutters" in being prepared to use such awful means to support their cause, but then they claim that their reward will occur in the next life.

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 4:22:53 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		So then Seeks - what is the solution?

Bomb the mosques? Intern all Muslims? Throw out every non white from the UK even?

E

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RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 5:01:42 AM   
Manawyddan


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From: Petaluma (Northern California)
Status: offline 		Actually, following 9/11 there were a bunch of 'revenge killings' against Muslims in the States ... or at least, men whom some people thought looked like Muslims ... a few Hindus and Sikhs got murdered along the way.

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(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
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(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: British Neo Nazis Vow Reprisals - 7/4/2007 5:06:14 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manawyddan

Actually, following 9/11 there were a bunch of 'revenge killings' against Muslims in the States ... or at least, men whom some people thought looked like Muslims ... a few Hindus and Sikhs got murdered along the way.


Yep, thats the problem isnt it? I have a friend of Turkish birth who was adopted by a white English family here at birth. She's as English as me aside from her genetics, yet she lives in fear of being targetted by some dickhead or other.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Manawyddan)
Profile   Post #: 40
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