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RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 7:00:15 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Oh, Waco's history isn't limited to Janet Reno's fuckup.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 8:41:46 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


I am on the US side.

 

        Really?  You hide that very well. 
     


In one of Woody Allen's movies from the 1960s, a few of his characters made the point that criticizing the Government made a person unpatriotic.  The irony was considered truly comedic and people insisted that
such narrow minded parochialism was not something that red-blooded American's would do.  Of course, now we have people in our Government, and yourself, and others, insisting that any criticism of our government is unpatriotic.  "My country right or wrong" seems so profoundly narrow-minded and jingoistic.

One aspect of Vietnam War protests is that those who protested the war, particularly prior to the Tet Offensive, were considered unpatriotic scum who hated America and all it stood for.  This was because Congress had approved a law (under false pretenses presented to them by the Johnson administration) authorizing military force in Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution) in order to stop Communism.  LBJ's administration had used shady intelligence and outright falsehoods to convince Congress that the people of Vietnam wanted US military involvement there.  Tet comes along, and all of a sudden the falsehoods used by the administration were laid bare for all to see.  Four years later, Congress repeals the Gulf Of Tonkin resolution in 1971.

To bring it full circle, I find it interesting that I criticize the actions (and to some extent the people behind those actions) in the current administration, and you (similar to idiotic characters in a Woody Allen movie) call me unpatriotic.  People make mistakes.  It takes a big person to stand up on a podium, lie directly to everybody repeatedly and without conscience, and state that they are right.  It takes a bigger person to stand up on a podium, admit that they are wrong, and take actions to minimize the damage and do what they can to right the wrongs they have committed.

I love my country.  I fear my Government.  I truly wish my country had the cajones to treat people honestly and fairly and without malice aforethought.  If only the United States would realize that guarantees of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness that were written into the Declaration of Independence are universal concepts.  They are concepts which apply to everybody, not just United States citizens.  I make this statement because the United States did not even exist when those words were penned.

I hope you had a lovely 4th, TheHeretic, but I am no longer interested in responding to your questioning my patriotism.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 9:54:40 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

"My country right or wrong" seems so profoundly narrow-minded and jingoistic.


That's what happens when a quote is taken out of context...

AUTHOR: Carl Schurz (1829–1906)

QUOTATION: The Senator from Wisconsin cannot frighten me by exclaiming, “My country, right or wrong.” In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.

ATTRIBUTION: Senator CARL SCHURZ, remarks in the Senate, February 29, 1872, The Congressional Globe, vol. 45, p. 1287. The Globe merely notes “[Manifestations of applause in the galleries]” but according to Schurz’s biographer, “The applause in the gallery was deafening.” This is “one of Schurz’s most frequently quoted replies.”—Hans L. Trefousse, Carl Schurz: A Biography, chapter 11, p. 180 (1982).

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 9:58:37 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Tet comes along, and all of a sudden the falsehoods used by the administration were laid bare for all to see.


Could you be a little more specific?
The falsehood of the Tet offensive was a fabrication by those opposed to the administration, IIRC.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 10:53:35 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		how cool, Real has  a new "fact" about 911.  Tritium....You never tried to push the tritium BS on us before, so lets see some solid research on it, or was that on your everything you need to know about Jews page you posted, it some incoherent stuff aobut radiation in it.  But it was not University of California.  But I am sure that (this time) you actually have evidence for your claim, so lets see it.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 11:32:08 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Tet comes along, and all of a sudden the falsehoods used by the administration were laid bare for all to see.


Could you be a little more specific?
The falsehood of the Tet offensive was a fabrication by those opposed to the administration, IIRC.



The falsehood of the Tet offensive?

Huh?

Which part of the Tet Offensive do you consider false?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 11:36:57 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		The part about it being a decisive defeat for American troops militarily...

Now, how do you feel the Tet offensive revealed falsehoods?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 11:39:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The part about it being a decisive defeat for American troops militarily...



Well, I don't think it was our best day in the killing fields.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 11:45:53 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The part about it being a decisive defeat for American troops militarily...



I have never read anything which stated it was a defeat for American troops.

The Vietnamese were handily put down.

quote:



Now, how do you feel the Tet offensive revealed falsehoods?



Prior to Tet, LBJ stated that what was going on in Vietnam was a small scale insurgency with a lack of central coordination.

When the entire country rose up in bloody revolt at the same time, kinda proved LBJ's and McNamara's statements were false.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 11:56:21 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

I have never read anything which stated it was a defeat for American troops...

... When the entire country rose up in bloody revolt at the same time, kinda proved LBJ's and McNamara's statements were false.


Well, for starters...McNamara's and LBJ's statements were false, but not because of any uprising or military victory by the North.

quote:

One of the most commonly cited works on the media is Big Story, by Peter Braestrup, a former Marine infantry officer and reporter for The Washington Post during the Tet Offensive. Braestrup analyzed press coverage of the Tet offensive and concluded that the press misreported the offensive as a defeat for the U.S. and that the reporting amounted to a "portrait of defeat"


And, BTW...

quote:

the Offensive did not create an uprising in South Vietnam and the operational cost of the offensive was dangerously high, with the Viet Cong essentially crippled by the huge losses inflicted by South Vietnamese and other Allied forces.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive#Goals_and_results

I always felt that the falsehoods from the Democrat war machine were uncovered by people who refused to accept the numbers, rationalizations, media reports, and other BS unquestioningly.

Too bad no one is doing that today....

Oh, wait...


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 11:59:48 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The US was defeated the moment they went in and supported Ngo Dinh Diem, suppressing the UN Mandated elections.

But hey, keeping promises to France and all that...





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 3:28:50 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I have never read anything which stated it was a defeat for American troops...

... When the entire country rose up in bloody revolt at the same time, kinda proved LBJ's and McNamara's statements were false.


Well, for starters...McNamara's and LBJ's statements were false, but not because of any uprising or military victory by the North.



Uh, I just said that.

I am not sure how many different ways I can say this.  The statements were false.  The Tet offensive proved it to the world.

quote:



I always felt that the falsehoods from the Democrat war machine were uncovered by people who refused to accept the numbers, rationalizations, media reports, and other BS unquestioningly.

Too bad no one is doing that today....

Oh, wait...



The source you quoted that stated the Tet offensive was a military defeat for the US seems odd.  I dont recall anything I read about it when I studied the war where number of people killed, territory lost, etc., was technically a military defeat.  I do recall a few firebases being almost being or being overrun, but prior to Tet and after Tet, the country was still under military control (to some extent) of the US.

Bringing it forward to today, you might want to review the Rendon corporation's analysis of how to win a war in Iraq, as well as the various organizations set up to lobby the President (first Clinton and then AnencephalyBoy) to invade. 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/8798997/the_man_who_sold_the_war/

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/11/17/rendon-group/

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Committee_for_the_Liberation_of_Iraq

What is interesting about the Rendon Group is their policy map was less a strategic military plan, but a plan to sell a war to the American people.

1)  Use contractors rather than soldiers to do one's dirty work after conquering the country.

2)  Embed reporters with units after forcing them to sign non-disclosure agreements, allowing them to only write positive stories.

3)  Do not allow news coverage of bodies or medically damaged people returning home.  Additionally, threaten to deny benefits to anybody who speaks out.

If everything had worked out as the administration had hoped, it would have been over in 4 weeks, but things in war almost never go exactly as planned.  In their incompetence and hubris, the administration failed to come up with a backup plan or even really consider what would happen after the military took Iraq. 

The primary reason we took over for France in Vietnam was our fear that China invading and conquering Vietnam would endanger oil tankers flowing (one per mile at the time) between the middle east and Japan.  With a secondary consideration that if the Communist revolution caused China and the Soviet Union to join forces, it would give them the means to put a chokehold on the US economy.  So when France threw up their hands after Dien Bien Phu, the US stepped in.

Technically, the only promise made to France was giving them back Vietnam after World War 2.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 3:31:55 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Uh, I just said that.


Uh, I just agreed with you... feel free to keep on arguing anyway, though...

quote:

I dont recall anything I read about it when I studied the war where number of people killed, territory lost, etc., was technically a military defeat.    


I recall it at the time, as being like the cited news analysis... According to the nightly news, US troops were 'overrun', 'scattered', 'in retreat', 'disorganized', while the enemy was 'in control', 'sweeping', 'winning', and so forth.


.


< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/5/2007 3:37:49 PM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 3:44:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Uh, I just said that.


Uh, I just agreed with you... feel free to keep on arguing anyway, though...



No worries, I was not sure.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 5:41:46 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


I am on the US side.

 

       Really?  You hide that very well. 
    


In one of Woody Allen's movies from the 1960s, a few of his characters made the point that criticizing the Government made a person unpatriotic.  The irony was considered truly comedic and people insisted that
such narrow minded parochialism was not something that red-blooded American's would do.  Of course, now we have people in our Government, and yourself, and others, insisting that any criticism of our government is unpatriotic.  "My country right or wrong" seems so profoundly narrow-minded and jingoistic.

One aspect of Vietnam War protests is that those who protested the war, particularly prior to the Tet Offensive, were considered unpatriotic scum who hated America and all it stood for.  This was because Congress had approved a law (under false pretenses presented to them by the Johnson administration) authorizing military force in Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution) in order to stop Communism.  LBJ's administration had used shady intelligence and outright falsehoods to convince Congress that the people of Vietnam wanted US military involvement there.  Tet comes along, and all of a sudden the falsehoods used by the administration were laid bare for all to see.  Four years later, Congress repeals the Gulf Of Tonkin resolution in 1971.

To bring it full circle, I find it interesting that I criticize the actions (and to some extent the people behind those actions) in the current administration, and you (similar to idiotic characters in a Woody Allen movie) call me unpatriotic.  People make mistakes.  It takes a big person to stand up on a podium, lie directly to everybody repeatedly and without conscience, and state that they are right.  It takes a bigger person to stand up on a podium, admit that they are wrong, and take actions to minimize the damage and do what they can to right the wrongs they have committed.

I love my country.  I fear my Government.  I truly wish my country had the cajones to treat people honestly and fairly and without malice aforethought.  If only the United States would realize that guarantees of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness that were written into the Declaration of Independence are universal concepts.  They are concepts which apply to everybody, not just United States citizens.  I make this statement because the United States did not even exist when those words were penned.

I hope you had a lovely 4th, TheHeretic, but I am no longer interested in responding to your questioning my patriotism.

Sinergy




        Your answer seems a bit of a non sequitor, Sinergy.  Please explain what any of this has to do with you supporting the mission of US Forces in Iraq and in the larger conflict against terrorists of the Muslim persuasion.

       I shall await your clarification (but not hold my breath).

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 7:25:34 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       Your answer seems a bit of a non sequitor, Sinergy.  Please explain what any of this has to do with you supporting the mission of US Forces in Iraq and in the larger conflict against terrorists of the Muslim persuasion.

      I shall await your clarification (but not hold my breath).


I asked you for clarification first.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 7:56:34 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
     I shall await your clarification (but not hold my breath).


I asked you for clarification first.

Sinergy



     But every time I try to clarify things for you, Sinergy, it only seems to further confuse you and cause these awkward gaps in your recollection of significant social/cultural/historical events within our lifetimes (I certainly hope there is no history of Alzheimer's in your family).

     Why don't you go ahead and clarify your statement that you are on the US side in the matter discussed in this thread?  Then I will be able to better understand precisely what you mean by "clarify," and thus, provide clarifications you will grasp.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/5/2007 8:07:29 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Update to the OP:  The village was reportedly called al Hamira, it lies in a region of very low resolution on Google Earth, east of Bagdad, and everything I found today related to the Yon story somehow.  If outlets of other media organizations have anything independent on it, I missed it on my searches.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/6/2007 6:05:04 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		There *IS* no US Mission in Iraq, except being used for Target Practice.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Iraqi Village Slaughtered - 7/6/2007 10:43:13 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

There *IS* no US Mission in Iraq, except being used for Target Practice.




I will make it short and simple for you, TheHeretic

I am on the US side because I personally think we have better things to do with our money and our citizens than standing around in Iraq as a bunch of targets.

I consider those people who support our presence in Iraq as being opposed to the US because their hubris and ignorance is going to end up bankrupting our country and further destroying our credibility worldwide.

Clear as mud?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 80
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