|
Slavetrainer2007 -> RE: how old? (7/8/2007 6:02:13 PM)
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rover
quote:
ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rover
I say this in all seriousness... historical slavery and the treatment of wives has absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with BDSM. Nor is it some historical precursor to the development of BDSM.
Frankly, I'm shocked that this kind of misinformation exists in 2007.
John
Really? You see no similiarities.
I see similarities between a marble and the earth, but I don't confuse the two nor do I construct a theory that the marble is the precursor to our planet. You can take superficial similarities quite a bit too far, and theorize what does not exist.
Historical slavery and wife beating lack several fundamental elements of BDSM (fundamental, as in necessary or it's not similar at all). First, they lack consent. That is no trifling matter, unless you'd see no problem with me taking you by brute physical force to be my slave under the guise of BDSM. Second, they were as much as anything, an economic relationship and social order. Third, though I'm sure there were specific exceptions, neither slavery nor wife beating were engaged in for mutual pleasure, gratification and fulfillment. In other words, they lacked that fundamental motivation.
This is the same illogical argument put forth by a few people (online) to equate the very real slavery that exists in the world today with BDSM. And like that argument, it rings hollow.
quote:
One day a group of people woke up and said lets start a lifestyle that is based on one partner being dominate and one being submissive. Also we should throw some Bondage and Discpline in there and even a little pain and we can call it BDSM.
To begin, there are "Dominants" not "Dominates". To dominate is a verb.
Please forgive me for the following brief historical rendition which is, by necessity, exceptionally incomplete and nothing more than a general overview.
Actually, the earliest documented participation was in S/M and gave rise to the European brothels that catered to these specific interests. There were fits and starts at attempts to organize S/M beyond the brothels, but they pretty much came and went without much notice. It wasn't until the 1940's and 1950's that the (often misunderstood) "Old Guard" were successful in organizing sustained groups.
Their interests were exclusively in S/M, and they utterly denounced and rejected B/D. B/D developed as a separate interest, whose participants did not generally mingle with (nor were the welcomed by) S/M.
D/s also developed separately, and was generally viewed to be an adaptation by the heterosexuals who were not welcome in organized S/M.
It was not until the 1970's and later that BDSM (as yet unnamed) started to become inclusive, and these three separate branches developed a tolerance for one another. I believe it was The Society of Janus which coined "BDSM" as the umbrella term for B/D, S/M and D/S in about 1984 (if memory serves). It was during this period in the 1970's that the older exclusionists (as in retain the exlusively gay male, S/M orientation) were in conflict with the newer inclusionists (include heteros, lesbians, B/D and D/S, etc). The newer folks referred to them as "The Old Guard" in a derogatory fashion, meaning that their time had passed and they were guarding a past that no longer existed.
You have many sources to become educated on leather history. It's no different than learning about any other subject that interests you. You can learn from those that know more than you do (though you seem rather reluctant). For instance, I'll be attending a workshop on "Leather History" given by Vi Johnson later this month.
You can also read the work of leather authors and historians. Without a doubt, Robert Bienvenue III has the most scholarly and detailed work on the topic, and did his dissertation on leather history. Gayle Rubin, Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean, Jay Wiseman and Jack Rinella have all made important contributions to the documentation of leather history. The Leather Archives & Museum in Chicago is a wonderful source of information, and has a traveling roadshow. Look for it at an event near you.
I guess the point is that education is not simply a function of sitting in front of your computer and thinking big thoughts, without regard to factual history.
quote:
The only reason BDSM exist is because of primal instincts and the need to use said instincts. Its just nature. BDSM is really only a modern way of doing that since society stripped us and told us this stuff was wrong and to this day they still tell us its wrong. We however have some leverage because, its all consentual.
Actually, the only reason BDSM exists is because people created it. Without BDSM, you'd find yourself in jail or the nut house as you practiced your "primal instincts" on non-consensual partners. It's only because you have an organized forum to meet other BDSM enthusiasts, because they created an organized sub-culture and provided a foundation for instruction and information that you have anything beyond privately held fantasies for your masturbation.
quote:
If you dont think that past cultures played any part in what you call BDSM, then you need to study up on the theory of evolution a bit.
What does the theory of evolution have to do with this? Please tell me what part Darwinian theory plays in BDSM.
quote:
Their have always been dominate people and submissive people, their has always been BDSM in some form.
I would agree that it's quite likely that there have been Dominant and submissive people since the dawn of man. But that is just speculation, as there is no evidence that it is so.
But I do not agree that there has always been BDSM. Individual people, expressing their sadistic or masochistic nature individually, is not BDSM. A sadist who finds a non-consensual victim in order to fulfill their sadistic needs is not engaged in rBDSM, any more than a rapist and his victim are lovers. This is illogical in the extreme.
quote:
Just because we call it BDSM and organized it and they didnt means nada as you put it... We civilized BDSM, turned it into a lifestyle because culture changes removed the elements of BDSM from culture , and made little organized groups.
Removed the elements of BDSM from culture? You'll have to explain that one for me. Surely you're not saying that the end of slavery and legalized wife beating is removing BDSM from our culture. Please tell me you are not.
quote:
Sure we can take credit for that. But people were slaves and people were using slaves long before your grandparents existed, people have liked inflicting pain or recieving it since the dawn of time.
Good Lord, that IS what you're saying. I can only reply that while this may be your opinion and you're free to share it, I find it exceedingly offensive. That's a loathsome, racist thing to say.
Honestly, you don't understand BDSM in the least, much less it's history. It's not uncommon for folks to find the internet and create a fantasy about BDSM, and to ascribe "mystical" powers to it and it's history. And that's too bad, because BDSM and it's history are special enough without the need for fabrication. That only serves to cast a malignant shadow across leather enthusiasts as liars and fantasizers.
John
ive seen a great many of your post on the boards and to be perfectly honest i just think you like to argue with people. Basically , and this is just from my point of view, it appears that if someone disagrees with you, they are ALWAYS wrong and your always right. so either you are perfect or you just think you are.
Your essentially telling me that BDSM started when it became organized, does crime only happen when its organized? The kinks, fetishes and everything else associated with BDSM started in the least hundreds of years ago. You should go a little further back in history than your lifespan.
Do you really believe some of things you write?
In any case im ending this conversation with you cause i know from past experience you would argue with a signpost until you are blue in the face.
|
|
|
|
