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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 5:51:20 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I sort of doubt I'll ever have to be beyond my means when it comes to Science on this board.. feel free to ask away..

..but what do you want to know about gravity? In the most basic sense, a blackhole sucks stuff in with gravity.. mass is attracted in.. and can't escape. Again, evaporation is Hawking's pet project on a contradiction to this. I'd explain it if you're interested.

Or are you asking me how gravity works..?




why don't you start with either, whatever your comfort zone tells you is right in your secret ganglion.........

you be the highschool teacher, (I will start you off here) and the event horizon, accumulates this material debris, and it is sucked into the hole, so is it like a blowjob?  at some point it get shit out and where do the wad go, I am as curious as you are.

Then , we get on, and you can explain me grave issues like gravity.

LOL





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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 6:34:58 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Wasn't the universe at one time expanding and now it is shrinking (there's a scientific word for it i am sure)?


Sort of. We think it's expanding. It looks like it was expanding at the times we can see. (Light coming to Earth is very old- so we don't know what's going on out there now.) Then again, red-shift could all be a crock, so it's a guess. Granted, a widely-accepted and theorically-supported guess, but still just a guess.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 6:36:05 PM   
CuriousLord


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Erm.. man, are you alright? (You don't seem to be making much sense and post 81's the second one in a row I've noticed in which you've mangled the "quote" tags..)

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 6:40:24 PM   
mnottertail


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I am in good enough shape to handle your explication of anti-gravity and black holes, and while I may not be the wahoo buckaroo that you are, I will hang for your version of how gravity works.




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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 6:52:55 PM   
CuriousLord


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We already went over I never mentioned "antigravity", right..?

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 7:15:34 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Nope, it's still expanding.  Maybe the term you're looking for is the "redshift"?

This is a really good site, in plain English, maintained by the UCLA astrophysicist Ned Wright:

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html#z



Thanks for the link - i wish i hadn't been raised in the generation that perpetuated the idea that girls were no good at math and science.  i always scored high - 2nd in my entire HS for math but i never had the confidence to study it or try hard.  i am reading a book on physics now and find it fascinating, written for the layman which helps because otherwise i would be lost. 

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 8:19:17 PM   
favesclava


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

(hold arms out wide) It's THIS big.

the  moment i started to read the post i thought of the this big position.standing next to someone so you can smack them really hard (NOT IN SCHOOOL GETS YOU ARRESTED) when you open your arms wide.  

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 9:19:33 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Interesting question, and one that I doubt anyone has a simple answer to. Myself, if I were teaching your hypothetical class, I would take it in steps. First, I'd try to give them some scale of the solar system. I'd put various scaled pins into a circle of foam, about the size of a dinner plate...
"Okay, this represents our solar system. It's approcimately nine light hours across, not counting the Oort Cloud at the outer fringes. Imagine about three inches beyond this a tiny dot that represents Voyager II, the fastest moving man-made object. It was sent on a mission to Jupiter starting in the year 1978, about a year after Star Wars first came out, and Jimmy Carter was still in office. At this scale, the next solar system you might encounter would be Proxima Centuri, 4.3 light years away... that would make it about the same diastance here as New York to to LA."

Next, I'd replace the circle of foam with a smaller block, with only two pins in it, about six inches apart.

  "This is our sun, and Proxima Centuri. At this scale, the center of the Milky Way, our home galaxy, would be about 50 miles away. (Insert the name of an appropriate city near you)"

Then, I'd replace the foam blocks with one of those large, swirled looking toy balls you can get from Wal Mart. On it, using a Sharpie pen, I'd place randomly little "@" symbols representing about 30 galaxies.

  This would represent the "local group" of galaxies. There are about 30 of them, and the distance to them is varied, but they are all flying away from each other as space itself is expanding. So fast, that astronomers can actually measure the "red shift" in their light as they do so.

Beyond this, we deal in specualtion. Thanks to dark feild astronomy (pointing telescopes into areas of space where there are no visible stars, and taking extremely long exposures) We know there seem to be BILLIONS of galaxies out there, each localized group of galaxies (like our own local group of about 30) would be represented by a single grain of salt. Now, salt the parking lot of the local mall on a snowy day... and you've got an inkling of the scale of the known universes.

Problem is, we don't know if this is the only one.

If you have access to a copy of "Cosmos" the old Carl Sagan series on PBS, you could play the first half of episode #1, where Carl takes us through a half hour long explanation of this very topic. The boxed set is about $100, and worth every penny, even if a few of the episodes are beginning to date themselves... (mostly because we've found out so much more about the outer soloar system in the last 25 years.)


Now that would be a good way to explain it!
Describing the size of our Galaxy and then explaining that there are "billions" of Galaxies in the Universe.
Some very big, some very "small."
And when you extend your arm there's "space" there but what was there before the Universe, "no space?"
And what would "no space" be?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/8/2007 9:23:27 PM >


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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/8/2007 9:24:39 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And no matter how big the Universe is wouldn't it have to "end" at some point?
And what would there be at the "end" of the Universe?
Some good answers in here thanks.


This question, and the fact that it would probably have to "begin" as well is a  mind bender that arrogant scientists splutter and cough  when asked about and acolytes ie dimwit followers, think scientists have "solved".
Nothing could be further from the truth, but science is rational isn't it. It must be because it believes itself to be NO?

To forestall the obvious responses: just because the scientific method can be seen to be logical and successful in solving the relatively simple problems dont get carried away and believe that scientists wont succumb to prestige and general purpose bullshit when considering the really difficult problems.

I just love this sort of thing.

Science and the scientific method are really how each and everyone who is not completely and utterly insane function everyday.

When you approach a door do you beseach the spirit of the portal or attempt to derive a new technique for opening the door? Of course not you apply the knowledge you've gained from previous experience. Even if the door is of completely unknown to you design you'll still look for a handle to try and get it to open. Which is what science is all about. It has been verified repeatedly that an object at sea level on earth will drop at roughly 32 ft/sec^2 so through that observation and further related observations Newton and his successors have worked out how gravity works even though we don't yet clearly understand how it works just as most people do not truly understand how turning a door knob opens a door.

As to the beginning of the Universe, this is one of those questions that people who do not truly understand physics misunderstand. The Big Bang theory simply postulates that at one time the universe was very small and very hot and subsequently entered a period of expansion which we continue to experience today. There was no grand explosion. There was no beginning in the way most people understand it. Time before the expansion is simply undefined. The big bang theory is very well supported by direct observation of physical phenomena and no explanation beyond the utterly useless 'godidit' explains those observations.

As to the size of the Universe. I would start out with explaining basic expanding universe theory. Get a balloon and blow it up a little. Using a marker mark two points on the balloon. These will represent two points in the expanding universe, the two dimensions of the surface of the balloon will represent the four dimensions of space/time. Now blow up the balloon some more. The points become further apart without truly moving. The 'fabric' of space/time simply stretched between them.

If the kids are able to grasp that I'd throw the idea of the cosmological horizon at them. Simply put the universe may be expanding too fast for light from some parts of the Universe to ever reach us. This limits our knowledge of the size of the universe directly although, obviously, no one knows how much if any is beyond the cosmological horizon.

Finally if the kids eyes aren't completely glazed over by this point I'd throw the age of universe at them. The elapsed time since the begining of the Big Bang expansion is roughly 13.7 billion years.

Finally we get to the size. I'd make sure the kids had at least a weak grasp on the cosmological horizon and then inform them that combining the expansion rate of the universe with the speed of light gives us an observable universe roughly 46.5 billion ligt years in radius centered on the Earth but I would emphasize that this is only the part we can actually observe and it is reasonable to assume the universe is much larger.

I'd then wait for the inevitable question about how we can see an object 46.5 billion light years away when the universe is only 13.5 billion years old. I'd then drag out the expandinguniverse balloon again and try and actually get this basic concept across.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 1:12:19 AM   
farglebargle


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"A Wizard Did It"...



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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 2:05:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


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DomKen: your post is a perfect example of a person with scientific leanings believing the fundamental questions are solved when in fact they are evaded or avoided, whichever you prefer.

If I say that when travelling thru' the cosmos light is shifted to the red by as of this moment an unknown influence, that would totally destroy all the current cosmological theories.
Its no more  extraordinary a "guess" than that used to support the big Bang. A spontaneous violation of the Conservation of Energy by the way.

Some objects have red shifts indicating speeds greater than that of light . They shouldnt be able to be "seen"  and such speeds are thought to be impossible anyway !
Some objects are thought to be cosmologically close to one another and have different red shifts.
How is the red shift of a galaxy measured?
Into what is the Universe expanding ?
From what did it begin ?
What is the source of the force generated by electromagnetic effects.?
How are molecules of intricate complexity able to generate and organise into the entity we call life.?
What is life anyway.?

Only arskin'

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 9:10:32 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

...how would you try to explain to a class just how big in human terms that the Universe is?
I mean as good as you could and trying to put it on a scale that humans could understand.


We dont know.

Tho- I would encourage kids to learn about other cultures and countries- as we are ego centric here. Real life example- a 5th grader thought "Chicago" was one of the 50 states!!!!!!

When I sereved in the Core- we designed and performed a diversity presentation to the 6th graders of the whole county. We were not allowed to discuss "sexual orientation" tho. I balked at that. If teh question came up- we were to refer it to the school guidance counsellor.  The presentation was big on peer pressure too. We designed it all from scratch. I have it on VHS. The law severely limits how wording goes in teh grade schools- we had to have every part of the script approved by higher ups- so we wouldnt be sued.  In time- other groups copied our format. It was an incredable achievement. I KNOW we made a difference. The punchline was to respect all peoples.   :-)

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 9:38:18 AM   
philosophy


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(Fast Reply to the OP)

...ok children, imagine the school playing field. Now imagine that somehow the edges of the field are always moving away from you, getting bigger all the time...no matter how fast you run it will always be faster...yes lil' Johnny, even if you ride your bike it will always be faster than you.......and lil' Esme even your Dad's car isn't fast enough to catch up.......no-one can ever get to the edge of the field.......so let's go back to when we did measuring things. When we can see the edges of things we can measure them and say how big they are......with the universe we never can...so we call it infinity.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 10:55:26 AM   
velvetears


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FR

i really like that philosophy, it creates a visual and a context which kids need to learn. They can't grasp abstract ideas or thoughts, but this would be great for kids. 

A good way to teach the concept of (gas, liquid and solid) to kids is pick about 10 to spread out all over a classroom, then have them move in closer to each other, then  have them all huddled up very close together - they love being a part of it and they remember it too.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 10:59:04 AM   
mnottertail


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I am gonna do the huddle with you.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 11:55:47 AM   
Raechard


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I should have pointed out that I'd never be a school teacher anyway because the pay is crap and I hate kids. It reminds me of that saying 'Those that can do and those that can't teach'.

I had a bad science teacher once; he told me that radiation couldn’t travel through a vacuum. So I asked him how rays of light reached the earth then. Half the problem with teaching science is that you have to be a good all-rounder he was obviously more of an expert in biology.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 11:59:42 AM   
mnottertail


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well, we find that there is no such thing as a vacuum even in a vacuum, seems there is a quantum foam with scrubbing bubbles kinda thing going on, this however; does in no way indicate that you should vacuum a toilet at home, kids.



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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 12:11:29 PM   
Raechard


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Yep Science is full of theories and in most cases that are all they will ever be to us are theories. It made me laugh when I read recently how much the EU spent on the world’s biggest particle accelerator only to find out another accelerator may have already found the illusive god particle. Even if they didn’t I don’t know how they are going to justify the cost of the thing. What new technologies will come from it? Personally I think it would have been better spent into more research into nuclear fusion.  

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 12:35:36 PM   
Archer


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Well maybe the use of the Old Is this full exercise could be the reverse of explaining the size of the universe.

Take a roll off dumpster (40 yard size) Load it up with 3 ft boulders until it heaps over the top. Is this full?
Obvious answer is yes to the uninitiated.
Now add in 6 inch sized gravel until the spaces between the boulders are filled. Is this full?
Might have a few who don't get it yet and say yes.
Now add pea gravel until the spaces are all filled up. Is this full?
One slow guy in the back still doesn't get it.
Now add sand
Full yet??? How about we add some water.

If the solar system we live in is a water molecule and the earth is a neutron then the dumpster is the universe.

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RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... - 7/9/2007 2:28:02 PM   
Lordandmaster


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It's really a shame that they didn't consult some dude name Raechard before investing in their particle accelerator, isn't it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Yep Science is full of theories and in most cases that are all they will ever be to us are theories. It made me laugh when I read recently how much the EU spent on the world’s biggest particle accelerator only to find out another accelerator may have already found the illusive god particle. Even if they didn’t I don’t know how they are going to justify the cost of the thing. What new technologies will come from it? Personally I think it would have been better spent into more research into nuclear fusion.

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