Love within Authority Dynamics (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> Love within Authority Dynamics (7/8/2007 9:51:46 PM)

Recently I was asked for my thoughts on the idea of love within my relationships.  The following is my thougths.  Much of it I have shared in one way or another.   I choose to answer the questions here since I felt they are indeed an important area of consideration
 
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Some may say Love is a hindrance to the M/s dynamic.  But, I would say that Love is a fundamental aspect of my M/s Relationships.   I couldn't imagine myself having this type of relationship without Love being apart of it.
 
Love and Respect of thy self... the most Powerful of Motivations... it comes from within...It's the intrinsic motivation that is only limited by oneself and dependent on no one but oneself.
Love for me has always been a Choice as much as it has been a Feeling.  My feelings have always been motivated by what I perceive... Be it real or illusion.  The choice is to see the truth of what I perceive from the lies.  Therefore, one must make the effort to Love!  Love will flow like water if you let it.  But, water will flow the easiest path... and this could lead you over a cliff.  Healthy Thoughtful Love is much more than free flowing water, but just as powerful.  We control it, we manage it.  We guide it.  When it is time to allow it to flow, we let it flow.  When must harness its power, we focus it and feel its power.  But we never push it up hill!  Remember the flow well pick up everything and can move anything over the course of time.  But if allowed to flow uncontrolled, it will wander aimlessly and finally dumping in a pool... its power never focused and utilized.
 
Love to me binds the people to a relationship.  It moves the focus from themselves to focus on the other and the relationship itself.  I question when love is not part of the relationship, if the focus ever moves from oneself to the relationship.  Without love, I wonder if the individuals are only using the other and the relationship to serve their self-centered interests.  Taking what they can and maybe draining the lemon dry, then going to find a new lemon.  I wonder if there are some that use the word love, but it is a shallow use of the word instead of the intense devotion that it leads one towards.  Love to me is a powerful word if it used with the feelings that back it up.  It moves one from the self-centered focus to that of a focus to another person and a relationship.  We become givers instead of takers and as result of our giving out of love we receive more than we could ever take.  Instead sucking the lemon dry... We plant an orchard and reap the rewards of that effort
 
I have been in a relationship with Alandra since in summer of ‘87.  It was then as is now without question a relationship that is very much a loving and growing relationship. I am also growing a young loving relationship with Kyra that began in spring of ‘05. I also have a deepening friendship with my bottom Denika and her husband where love is very much a part of the relationship. Frankly, I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone can have an intimate BDSM relationship without love being an important part of that relationship. I suppose it is done, but I have not seen it done successful over a course of many years.
 
I thought I was in love with Alandra years ago... but I kept finding that day by day our depth of love just kept growing and never stopping.  It's to the point that I look to tomorrow with excitement because my experience has showed me that I will be loved and love her even more than I do today.  My experience with alandra has also had an extremely positive effect on my relationship with kyra.  When I first touched her gently on the cheek that first time we saw each other... I felt a deep sense of love... but today that love seems pale in comparisons to the way I feel now... god I can hardly wait for tomorrow.

My approach is simple in the relationships I am in. Out of love, We become open to be who we are. I seek not to make my girls what they are not... I only seek to support them to shed that which is illusions of them selves, as they support me in doing the same thing. A relationship with me is about bringing the inner self out into the open and being this person. Out of love we accept what comes. This line of thought is nothing new. A noted psychologist termed the word "congruence" Essentially it means that the more we are able to demonstrate that inner self to the world/relationships, The more content/stable and at peace we become. We are happier. The deeper we hid this inner aspect of our self, well it is a path of unhappiness. I see love as a vehicle to facilitate this path towards happiness.  It is not only path that I use. For I believe there are many strategies in building our personal happiness with our self and our relationships.

The path I describe is one of Self-Awareness leading to Self-Acceptance leading to Self-Actualization. The interesting aspect of this path is that it is actually circular. As we Self-actualize we are destine to become more aware of aspects of our inner self... which will lead us to need to Accept this new found awareness in order for further actualization to occur.

It is my beliefs that if we stop this cycle at any point we stop to grow in ourselves and in our relationships. We stop to bringing that inner self into the light of day and thus we establish a ceiling to our individual happiness. I suspect that many of us do this from time to time and can actually live very happy lives to the end of our days.  Being in a relationship that is fundamentally a loving relationship promotes trust, security, validation and whole array of things that promote this cycle of growth.

I am loved not for what I do for them, "but for who I am".  To push and bring my full awareness of my inner self to the open to those that love me can only grow this love.  So I choose to be "Me" and enjoy the great happiness it gives me. Just as I love my girls for them are being who they are. However, I do not believe I could ever enjoy the love that is given to me, nor give love my girls to the depth I do unless we first love ourselves.
 
However, It is so much easier to love another than to accept the love from another.  We know what is in our hearts and minds, but we only think we know what is in theirs.   The difference is subtle but significant.  To accept the love of another when we don't love our self is never an easy path.  When we fail to love ourselves it begs to question the motivations of another that express love towards us.  It is therefore my thoughts that “Awareness, .Acceptance & Actualization” is to grow our love of self and not just our relationship.
 
Some may say Love is a hindrance to the M/s dynamic and I would have to agree in some cases.  In comparison, Many parents who love their children very much are blinded by that love to make the choices and decisions that are best for raising their children. They are blinded by "my children do no wrong" and I suspect everyone can think of examples of such. Because this, are they good parents? Should they be parents? Should parents not love their children?

I see no difference between the Master that allows his/her love to negatively affect his/her responsibilities towards the slave as the parent that allows love to negatively affect their responsibilities towards their children.   It is my opinion we choose to love and as Masters we choose to exercise our authority.  One need not conflict with the other.

To me it is not a question if Love should be in the relationship... It is should they be a Master?
 
If love causes a person not to fulfill their responsibilities... then let them never know what love is.
 
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Therefore, to continue the dialogue.. I ask you to share your own thoughts.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/8/2007 9:56:07 PM)

Nice to see a male heterosexual dominant really take some time and think about these things and own up to them so fully and publicly.

For me, love it.  It doesn't really DO much and it certainly won't make a relationship work on its own.  But sometimes something just being what it is can be extremely powerful.



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 2:09:22 AM)

Ahhh, timeless love. Unconditional love for me makes me THINK I'm a better Master,  more secure and happy person. I suspect my love directed at someone else, does the same for her. Maybe it is only that love makes us think we are cool geniuses and we are stlill fools. Who knows.



charlotte12 -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 3:21:03 AM)

I am only just coming to discover the things you have so eloquently expressed and i wanted to offer my humble appreciation for taking the time to write what you did. I may come back later and share some thoughts but for now it's 3am and i should be asleep.
~charlotte



wwwkevinww -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 3:34:10 AM)

Love is an emotion that is very powerful.  Most people in love experience it for only short periods of time, about 18 months tops.  after that, they love the person but its less emotional....the emotion is directed at one person, its not possible to be in love with someone and love 20 other people at the same time.....if your thoughts and feelings are constantly revolving around one person (almost obssessive), then you cannot divide this type of time between many individuals....well, you can, but it lessens the entire emotion.......

I think your kidding yourself when you talk about love, and are instead compassionate......this is to the OP

The stuff about river flowing and all the other stuff and being real is valid........your analogy holds water (chuckle)........



MadRabbit -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 5:28:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

Love is an emotion that is very powerful.  Most people in love experience it for only short periods of time, about 18 months tops.  after that, they love the person but its less emotional....the emotion is directed at one person, its not possible to be in love with someone and love 20 other people at the same time.....if your thoughts and feelings are constantly revolving around one person (almost obssessive), then you cannot divide this type of time between many individuals....well, you can, but it lessens the entire emotion.......

I think your kidding yourself when you talk about love, and are instead compassionate......this is to the OP

The stuff about river flowing and all the other stuff and being real is valid........your analogy holds water (chuckle)........


If you were somehow capable of the same amount of abstract thought that KoM is, you would realize how far you have shoved your head up your own ass by mocking him with this flawed and immature viewpoint regarding love having to be monogamous to be real and silly assumptions regarding his devotion to his two girls.

Thank you Knight of Mists for sharing. I greatly appreciate it and your writings have given me a lot to think about in regards to how I approach love in my own M/S relationships.

Its a shame that something this deep and thoughtful cant be posted here without it being belittled.



KatyLied -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 5:43:54 AM)

quote:

its not possible to be in love with someone and love 20 other people at the same time....


You are childless, right?



Aileen68 -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 5:54:25 AM)

And parentless.  And friendless.



KatyLied -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 5:56:17 AM)

Yeah, how said it must be to only be able to love one person at a time.



Aileen68 -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 5:58:11 AM)

Especially when it can only last for eighteen months.



amiciaN -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 6:08:45 AM)

"Love is the only thing that multiplies when it is divided."   --DearAbby

I used to always read DearAbby growing up and every once in a while, some line of hers would stick in my head because of the simple truth it contained.  It has been my experience in life that this one has proved true.  Love has many colors and shades in its rainbow and like a smile, looks good on everyone.   [:D]

edited because I can't type



wwwkevinww -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 6:37:42 AM)

someone brings up children, talking about love, that isn't romantic love.  its a very different type of love, and that is the type of love you can have after the 18 months, sorry but I'm not talking generic bullshit, I'm talking pyschological fact (as much as is possible)....

you can love the person your with, but which one of 3 are you thinking about when you with just one of them, because the romantic type of love I was talking about is all consuming....

you can love your children equally (tries to avoid topics of favoritism), but when it comes to romantic love the pologomy dynamic falls apart....

I don't have a problem with pologomy, and if you want to say you love them, but don't try to tell me you have romantic all consuming love and it grows every day with 3 women.......

you can fool people, but you cannot fool everyone.  I'll ignore the attempted flames, I'm not trying to be insulting, just realistic...

comparing romantic love for the love of your children.......let me just state there is a succinct difference.....



KatyLied -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 6:48:41 AM)

I'm sure all parents will be happy to know that the love they bestow on their children is "generic bullshit".  Wow.



julietsierra -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 6:49:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I see no difference between the Master that allows his/her love to negatively affect his/her responsibilities towards the slave as the parent that allows love to negatively affect their responsibilities towards their children.   It is my opinion we choose to love and as Masters we choose to exercise our authority.  One need not conflict with the other.

 
If love causes a person not to fulfill their responsibilities... then let them never know what love is. 
 


Thank you so much for this thread KoM. Amazingly, we had this discussion just last night - or something amazingly close to it.

I didn't like it very much.

But on reflection today, I can see that what he said is absolutely correct.(and coincidentally, it's exactly what you're saying)

I am one of the children you talk about. My parents are good parents. I have a parent/child, adult/adult, friends/friends relationship with them. However, in my life, when things haven't gone right, my parents were always there to save me. They have been my safety net throughout my entire life. I appreciate that. I really do. Unfortunately, what that's done has caused me to never really challenge myself to take the risks that most people simply take for granted. I'm in the process of coming to understand this more and I'm hoping that over time, I'll figure me out much better.

One of the things that my Master does (or I should say, doesn't do) is not tell me how he feels about me. He doesn't cuddle, doesn't hug, doesn't kiss, just... doesn't. And I can honestly say that I've had significant problems with that.

Last night, he said something interesting to me though. He asked, "have you ever wondered why I don't cuddle, kiss etc? (I nodded - talking at that point being way too difficult) It's because you can't handle it. You fall in love too hard, too fast and you stop thinking."

I was not exactly happy with hearing this. When he went on to explain that in my head I've always coupled love with "help" when I could be doing things on my own - and NEEDED to do things on my own. He noticed how I do very little without a safety net and that it's important for me, even just in terms of being a well rounded ADULT that I learn how to manage without the safety net. When I stop to consider this in the light of day, I realize that I am actually doing this for my own children. Because circumstances are what they are around my house, my kids know that they can never come to me and hope that I'll save them - financially at any rate. They know they have to make it on their own. Their lives are up to them - and to a person, they are rising to the challenge. The trick now is for me to learn how to do this in my own life.

But getting back to love...

In our relationship, on a daily basis, I make a conscious decision to love. I do so without encouragement, without thought of reciprocity, without all those little niceties most of us have come to expect that lets us know we're doing things right. My indication that I'm doing things right is that we spend all the time we can together. For the first time in my life, I'm operating without a safety net. And I love it. It's thrilling, frustrating, tearful, joyful and just plain wonderful.

I too am one of those people you speak of for whom giving love is much easier than accepting love. I find love in strange ways - not necessarily the hearts and flowers kinds of things that make Valentine's Day and all that so heartwarming. This isn't to say I don't someday hope for that, it only means that right now - in this place I am right now, while I may long for hearts and flowers, what fills me more is working together on something, being thought of as competent to stand at his side, and things like that.

We talked a lot last night - most of which I am still going through in an attempt to understand more and have that understanding come to play in my life in a worthwhile manner. (It's that self-awareness, self-acceptance, self-actualization plan you speak of in your post.)

But the one thing I ended up understanding more this morning - prior to reading this thread, but also in part, due to your post, your last sentence and how it plays out in my life is that he most definitely loves. (I knew before, but sometimes, not hearing tends to make me doubt)

You said "If love causes a person to not fulfill their responsibilities, let them not know what love is." He loves very much. But he loves without providing me with the safety net that I've come to rely on to the detriment of fulfilling my responsibilities as a fully functioning adult. In essence, he is not allowing me to "know" love - even though he loves very deeply.

The rest is up to me.

Not sure if this made sense...I'm still working my way through it.

juliet



wwwkevinww -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 6:51:18 AM)

I have family.  Of course I have love for them.  but its not romantic love.....I don't constantly think about them or wish I could be with them and think about them constantly about them in all my free moments when I'm away, and most of my free time is thinking about them and the memories I have had thus far with them.....

romantic love is an actual physical phenomenon, it has a beginning and an end, you can love someone after the romantic love dies, but its not the same thing..........

I probably wasn't clear enough in my first email to describe this distinction between romantic love and basic love....

you can have love for your friends, but no matter what you say, its extremely hard to try to bring it to the level of your family..how many friendships could survive 20 years of bitter hatred and then reconciling, its possible, but less likely, and you can dislike someone in your family but still have love for them, only because they are your family.....

our next topic bomb will be how people aren't really equal ( although they should be treated equal if at all possible), and some people have more value to society than others.....



justheather -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 7:09:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

I'm not talking generic bullshit, I'm talking pyschological fact


Psychological fact? I dont even begin to know what that means. Could you please explain?

quote:

you can love the person your with, but which one of 3 are you thinking about when you with just one of them, because the romantic type of love I was talking about is all consuming....


That's called "infatuation".

quote:

I don't have a problem with pologomy, and if you want to say you love them, but don't try to tell me you have romantic all consuming love and it grows every day with 3 women.......


Again, that's not love. That's infatuation. I think this comes down to a matter of definition, your definition of "love" being different than, well, everyone else who is posting here.




wwwkevinww -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 7:11:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I'm sure all parents will be happy to know that the love they bestow on their children is "generic bullshit".  Wow.



generic bullshit is an opinion (crap someone else said, specifical the rabbit girl with the flame about me not understanding abstract opinions), fact is when you don't have an opinion on it, your just regurgitating the stuff you were spewed.

I'm not going to say what your misquoting me as a misunderstanding, because misunderstanding has some attempt at trying to understand, I will say your attempting mis-quoting me....

if you really really care, look up facts regarding our best understanding of romantic love, and tell me with reputable psychologists with page numbers and books that the facts I have stated are false....because the facts I have stated are the basic facts of a news article I had regarding love I had posted on my wall in my bedroom for a number of years....and since I have not heard any valid claim to it being not factual, I accept it as fact, not opinion (we all have one, just like assholes..)....

alot of web sites are totally fictious or non-factual opinions.....don't confuse wannabe psychologists or wiki's as fact...




LaTigresse -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 7:12:35 AM)

Thank you KoM for sharing your thoughts.

I find it interesting that kevin has such a view on romantic love. I cannot imagine feeling that way. Perhaps I am more of a freak than I previously thought. I can honestly say that there is only one person I have felt such a love for that I no longer feel that way about now. Except for that one person, I have never stopped loving anyone. Yes, there are relationships that have ended. No, the love did not die. Just a sad realization that the relationship was not going to work for either of us.

I have had very intense feelings of love for more than one person at a time, I still do. I do not understand why that would be so difficult for anyone. Just as each person is different, so are the facets of the love I feel for them. To me it is a mature concept, a strength in a way. To be able to acknowledge that you can give love, accept each person for their own unique gifts. To not feel the need to possess them in a manner of obsession or to mold them to your ideal. Instead to love the gifts they have, to encourage them to grow and thrive. Interestingly enough, a concept that many do not understand. What I have seen, and found in my own relationships, that such love ultimately will bind those in it more tightly than the immature possessiveness.



KatyLied -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 7:14:01 AM)

I think that is you can't find live that lasts beyond 18 months you have more issues than worrying about someone taking what you say out of context or misquoting you. 




justheather -> RE: Love within Authority Dynamics (7/9/2007 7:18:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww
if you really really care, look up facts regarding our best understanding of romantic love, and tell me with reputable psychologists with page numbers and books that the facts I have stated are false....because the facts I have stated are the basic facts of a news article I had regarding love I had posted on my wall in my bedroom for a number of years....and since I have not heard any valid claim to it being not factual, I accept it as fact, not opinion (we all have one, just like assholes..)....



Why didnt you provide "reputable psychologists with page numbers and books" if that is what you are requiring a person who does not agree with you do?
Im no expert on debate, but it might be considered bad form for you to present swooping generalizations and opinions in broad strokes about human behavior and then suggest that anyone who cares to disagree with you should be ready with seven pages of end-notes.

The last time I checked "something I had taped to my bedroom wall for a long time" doesnt cut it as a source.

I have no problem with you expressing your opinion, but your approach seems rather condescending and you do not seem oriented toward open discussion of this topic any more than the people who are posting in response to you do. Perhaps you have set the tone with your initial reply.



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